Digests from the KALEIDOSCAPES MONTHLY TOPIC
(HOMESCHOOLING) DISCUSSION BOARD

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"Unschooling Help!" Digest

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Unschooling-Help!!
      AUTHOR:  Heather
        DATE:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 9:42 a.m.

 Response To:  Unschooling-Help!!
      Author:  Sandi
        Date:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 8:30 a.m.



> Help!

> How long does one continue to try
> unschooling when you have a resistant
> teen? At least once a week (just a few
> minutes ago was the latest), he said,
> "We never should have done unschooling
> this year." When I asked him why,
> he said, "Because I don't do anything."
> He then said, "Maybe we should've
> done a curriculum." When I said,
> "Why, do you want to learn something?
> If so, why aren't you? You can learn
> anything you want." He then said,
> "You can't learn on your own."
> I said you could, and what did he mean.
> He said, "You can't learn about
> UFO's on your own." He then stormed
> to his room.

> This all started because I made
> a comment to him. I told him I was glad
> he liked the new computer game we got
> (Dr. Brain Thinking Games), but that
> I was concerned that yesterday he spent
> 4.5 hrs. just doing that. He ONLY got
> off because his sister wanted a chance
> to use the computer and when she asked
> him if she could get on he snarled and
> told her to "Shut up and get out
> of here." At that point, I MADE
> him get off and let her get on. Earlier,
> when I wasn't feeling well and asked
> him to move the sprinklers yesterday
> for me (we had the yard seeded last
> week), he told me, "Why should
> I have to do it?" (It would interrupt
> his computer time, of course). So I
> went out and did it myself.

> So today he wants me to take him
> to the mall and I'm going to say, "Why
> should I have to do it?"

> Back to our conversation. After
> telling him I thought he spent too much
> time on the computer yesterday, I also
> told him that I wanted to tell him something
> that I wanted made clear, because I
> didn't want him blaming me. I told him
> that HE had told me he wanted to do
> math this year, because HE felt he didn't
> have a good foundation in it and needed
> to beef up on some areas before trying
> Algebra I again (he did Key to Algebra--some
> of the books--last year, and didn't
> feel he really "got it".)
> So HE chose the book Basic College Mathematics
> (which is really a Pre-Algebra course--just
> perfect for what he needs). Well, he
> has only done 2 exercises in the book,
> in 6 weeks. I told him that I meant
> it that he didn't have to do it this
> year, but be advised that for what he
> says he wants to do for college (military
> academy or medical school) he will probably
> need 4 years of math (Alg. I, Alg. II,
> Geometry and Trig). If he doesn't do
> this math until next year, it will probably
> take him 5 years to get through his
> math (it is not his strong point, it
> is hard for him and he doesn't like
> it). That's okay, but he might be finished
> with all other requirements to "graduate"
> for high school except math, and he'll
> have to take an extra year to do it.
> I told him I didn't want him coming
> to me next year and blaming ME because
> he didn't know and I should have MADE
> him do math this year so he won't be
> "behind". (In my mind, I'm
> also thinking that if he should choose,
> or we should choose, to send him to
> school next year, there is NO WAY he's
> ready for Algebra I and he'd have to
> take some sort of remedial math or a
> pre-algebra in 9th grade and he will
> be REALLY mad that he's not "where
> he is supposed to be" and will
> blame it on me that he wasn't ready
> for Algebra I).

> So I just advised him of HIS goal
> where he said he was going to do math
> this year and that I didn't want him
> getting angry at me in the future because
> he didn't know what math would be required
> for the colleges he is interested in
> (these ARE the academies requirements,
> btw) and then realize that he's not
> ready.

> That's when he said that he shouldn't
> have unschooled. He should have gone
> with a curriculum. I then said "I
> don't understand. Do you want a set
> curriculum? You HAVE one for math. You
> can do it. Why aren't you, if you want
> a curriculum?"

> Do you think he will ever GET it?
> Why does he tell me that he's not learning
> anything and when I tell him he can
> learn ANYTHING he wants to if that's
> what he wants, he shakes his head and
> gets angry. It sounds like he wants
> me to tell him what to do, but if I
> do, he fights me tooth and nail.

> I'm back to worrying about his
> laziness. Even HE admits he's doing
> nothing. He only wants to play on the
> computer and we've limited his t.v.
> and computer time. He gets too nasty
> the longer he's on. EVERYONE notices
> it.

> I play games with his sister and
> when I ask him if he wants to play he
> says, "Not if she has to play too."
> I tell him that's mean, that if it's
> a game she can play, it's more fun with
> 3. I do offer to play some games with
> him alone, but I don't like telling
> her no if she wants to play too. He's
> very negative to doing anything, is
> the bottom line.

> I plan field trips and he doesn't
> want to go. I have to make him go. He
> doesn't want to have to do chores. His
> typical response is "Why should
> I have to? This unschooling sucks."
> Excuse me???? What does having to do
> chores have to do with unschooling?????
> Then he turns around and asks me to
> take him to the mall, to the computer
> store, to buy him clothes, to take him
> to the movies, etc. Is he spoiled or
> what?

> I hate to keep complaining, but
> I'm at my wit's end with him. Should
> I order Calvert 8th grade or Seton 8th
> grade and MAKE him do the work? Should
> I make up my own curriculum and give
> him specific assignments and goals he
> has to meet? In other words, go the
> other extreme and make him do something
> for a change? I don't want to, but it's
> like he's asking for it. He does keep
> telling me that we shouldn't have done
> unschooling, a curriculum would be better.
> And yet when I ask him if we should
> order one, but he'd have to do the required
> work (I'd get the teacher advisory and
> make him accountable to someone else
> for a change), he says "No, I don't
> want to." Bottom line: he's lazy
> and doesn't want to have to do any work.
>

> I'm being patient here and not
> requiring him to do anything (just reminding
> him of what HE said HE was going to
> do, when he says he's "not doing
> anything").

> What would you do? Looking for
> any advice. I'm willing to continue
> unschooling for the rest of the year,
> but when it seems HE'S asking not to,
> what do I do?

> Sandi

I'm not an unschooling expert here. But it sounds to me like he doesn't
know HOW to learn on his own because somebody has always done it for
him. Also, I feel like there has to be some parental guidance in any
child's education. We know from experience what it takes to be succesful
and responsible in life. From this we need to guide and help our children
develop. It's not fair to put all the responsibility on him. I think
he's trying to tell you he can't do it alone. You need a balance between
unschooling and regular schooling,IMHO,to raise a well rounded, educated
child.
               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  What about working on a UFO...
      AUTHOR:  Lara
        DATE:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 12:04 p.m.

 Response To:  Unschooling-Help!!
      Author:  Sandi
        Date:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 8:30 a.m.



Hi Sandi,

What about having your son do a unit study on UFO's since it seems
that he is interested in it. I would advise you to get a Valerie Bendt
book that helps you to create a unit study or go online to several
of the other webs that have unit studies for you.

Your son might be one who likes to get to be "nudged" here and there
to get the work done. Have HIM do all the research on UFO's and just
assist him when he needs help. You can create your own little unit
and "hit" every subjects except math just from a UFO unit study.

THIS IS WHAT I WOULD PROBABLY HAVE HIM DO:

-get library books on the subject -search the web for the subject
-use maps to "locate" areas where they have "supposedly" been spotted
(geography) -study about the area (geo/social study) -study about
important people from the area (history) -do research on people who
are involved with "UFO" findings and the likes (social studies) -have
HIM do some experiment that relate to UFO's (science) -read a book
about UFO's (literature) -do a write-up/summary of book read (english/lang.
arts) -dictate him some sentences from material read and do some dictionary
search (english/lang. arts) -illustrate write-up and make a collage
or book out of it by using graphics, free hand drawings... (art &
creativity) -look-up Bible verses that use some of the words used
in literature or other material used (topical Bible search)

And there are other things that could branch out from that unit study.
All of it can be done by HIM and all by HIMSELF. He would need you
for inputs or the likes.

Our family does the unit study type of approach and it works very
well for us. I would suggest that for math you use "an already made
up curriculum." That's what we do because I feel more confident that
the kids are learning the things they should know. Also it's a bit
easier on me since I make up all our unit studies. The children do
or I try to make them do about 3 pages of math each day.

Also if you're getting burned out...especially with his attitude I
think that it might be time for your family to have a "family" meeting
and look at "all" things into perspective. That means: what you expect,
when it should be done, the rules of the house, limitations on computer,
sharing...

Hope that all this helps you out. In His Service, Lara...8-)

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Countering the negativity is Job One
      AUTHOR:  Cerelle
        DATE:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 12:11 p.m.

 Response To:  Unschooling-Help!!
      Author:  Sandi
        Date:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 8:30 a.m.



Sandi--

I read through your post a couple of times, trying to get at the root
of the problem. There's a lot going on here -- worries about your
decision to try unschooling, your son's unwillingness to assume responsibility,
"laziness," sibling squabbles, reluctance to do chores, blame...and
of course, academic progress.

To my way of thinking, laziness is a symptom, not a disease in itself.
Ditto negativity. The real questions here are: WHY is your son so
negative? WHY does he seem uncooperative and combative?

I'd try to find out, and I'd put everything else on hold until I had
a handle on the real problem. The two messages I hear coming from
him are "I cannot," and "I will not." That's a lot of "nots," all
right! I also hear a lot of ANGER.

He might need help dealing with anger and blame. Maybe he has a hard
time tolerating the idea of accepting personal responsibility for
his actions. He may be very depressed (which often goes hand in hand
with "laziness" and negativity), or he may be feeling like the family
scapegoat. Are unpleasant episodes often blamed on him? Is he the
"problem" in the family? This kind of thing tends to be self-perpetuating
-- kids will "live down" to their perceived role in family dynamics.

I am not suggesting you sit idly by while he wreaks havoc in the household.
In fact, I would insist on KINDNESS. ("Kindness" includes helping
out with chores when someone else isn't feeling good and letting someone
else have a turn at the computer.) But I would also spend a lot of
time LISTENING to what he's really saying behind all the negative
words and deeds. You might have to read between his words, guess what's
really going on in his head, and check to see if you've understood
what he's thinking and feeling.

Calling a person lazy or difficult NEVER solves the problem. It may
be TRUE, but it doesn't get you anywhere, because the labels don't
change anything -- they only describe a condition that already exists.
IMO, we never help our children behave better by making them feel
bad. In a lot of ways, dealing with an adolescent is like coping with
a 2-year-old. All the same rules apply: Catch them being "good." Be
loving but firm. Limit their choices to the ones you can live with.
Pick your battles. Don't sweat the small stuff. Be consistent. Model
the behavior you want to see. (You know the drill...)

This calls for a sharpening of your parenting skills, rather than
a decision about whether to go back to using a curriculum. If your
son can start feeling happy again and at peace within the family and
the world, the learning will go more smoothly, no matter which homeschooling
style you choose.

Cerelle

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Right!
      AUTHOR:  Rob
        DATE:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 4:23 p.m.

 Response To:  Countering the negativity is Job One
      Author:  Cerelle
        Date:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 12:11 p.m.



Mutual admiration society, Cerelle.

I agree. I detect boredom and loneliness in what he wants to do. I
don't think he should do a curriculum because it will only pressure
him to complete many subjects, not just his problem one: math. Math
by book and rote is not fun.

I would only do math, and WITH HIM. I would sit down, with the math
book, read the seciton with him, and work the problems with him until
he understands and can complete them on his own. Give real life examples
of the problem if the thought comes up. No impatience, no yelling,
no showing of frustration. If you're not getting anywhere one day,
stop for now and wait till tomorrow.

Chores. Do them with him. You don't have to do it for him (although
you might at first), just with him. Keep him company. Talk to him
while you work, together.

He's not playing on the computer, he's just going through the motions.
Bored out of his gourd. Nothing better to do.

He wants to talk to you. Want to see something amazing? Go to a room,
by yourselves. And talk about nothing in particular for 30 minutes
or an hour. Don't talk about school unless he brings it up! Do it
again tomorrow or in a couple of days. Do it every few days, at least.
You'll be surprised how comforting it is for both of you.

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Right!
      AUTHOR:  Sandi
        DATE:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 5:05 p.m.

 Response To:  Right!
      Author:  Rob
        Date:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 4:23 p.m.



> Mutual admiration society, Cerelle.
>

> I agree. I detect boredom and loneliness
> in what he wants to do. I don't think
> he should do a curriculum because it
> will only pressure him to complete many
> subjects, not just his problem one:
> math. Math by book and rote is not fun.

> I would only do math, and WITH
> HIM. I would sit down, with the math
> book, read the seciton with him, and
> work the problems with him until he
> understands and can complete them on
> his own. Give real life examples of
> the problem if the thought comes up.
> No impatience, no yelling, no showing
> of frustration. If you're not getting
> anywhere one day, stop for now and wait
> till tomorrow. >>

He understands the math. It's a Basic College Math book and the beginning
is just addition, subtraction, mult. and division. He says it's easy.
I tell him to move on then. He doesn't want me to do it with him.
Wants to read it and do it himself (I asked him).

> Chores. Do them with him. You don't
> have to do it for him (although you
> might at first), just with him. Keep
> him company. Talk to him while you work,
> together. >>

Funny you mentioned about chores. A few months ago I asked him if
he wanted to do them together, rather than he does one room, I do
another, and his sister does another. He says he likes it like it
is. Doesn't want to do them together. There's not enough room for
us to do a room together (his words) and it would "be chaotic." Same
with cooking. Doesn't want to do it together, it'd be chaotic. Besides,
it's easy. You just have to read a recipe and follow it. When I suggest
he cook then, he says, "NO, I don't want to cook."

> He's not playing on the computer,
> he's just going through the motions.
> Bored out of his gourd. Nothing better
> to do.

> He wants to talk to you. Want to
> see something amazing? Go to a room,
> by yourselves. And talk about nothing
> in particular for 30 minutes or an hour.
> Don't talk about school unless he brings
> it up! Do it again tomorrow or in a
> couple of days. Do it every few days,
> at least. You'll be surprised how comforting
> it is for both of you. >>

He doesn't want to talk, "it's stupid." (his exact words).

He is playing on the computer and likes it. He bought himself THREE
new games last week (Liberation Day, Lords of the Realm II, Dragon
Lore II) and I bought him one (Dr. Brain Thinking Games). He WANTS
to play them. He played Dr. Brain yesterday for 4.5 hrs. straight.
He says this is what he wants to do. And with his friends, he WANTS
to play Starcraft over the internet. He LOVES this game. He NEEDS
to play so he can earn points so he can do some sort of special game,
or something.

I ask him if he wants to play board games or card games with me. He
says yes, "but only if his sister doesn't have to play." Of course,
she wants to play too! I tell him that we should let her play too,
it's not nice to tell her she can't play. I tell him he can choose
the game. He says, "Then I want to choose one she can't play. Otherwise
I don't want to play." I DO play games with only him, but there are
some it's more fun with if we all play and my daughter gets hurt if
we exclude her.

We go places as a family, but we have to make him go because he says
he's not interested. But he usually likes it once we get there! I'm
really trying to work on our relationship with HIM, but it's hard
when he's so negative about everything.

Thanks for the advice!

Sandi


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     MESSAGE:  Re: Unschooling-Help!!
      AUTHOR:  VickiC
        DATE:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 5:06 p.m.

 Response To:  Re: Unschooling-Help!!
      Author:  Heather
        Date:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 9:42 a.m.



(For what it's worth...)

I really agree with Heather here. This boy is struggling with math,
knows he has five years of it ahead of him and feels it's his job
to figure out how to scale this mountain. Were I in this situation
I would feel angry, scared, frustrated and confused. And probably
somewhat abandoned by the person I most looked to for help as well.
I think he's wanting more direction.

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  PS If I came off sounding cranky, it was unintended;-)
(NT)
      AUTHOR:  VickiC
        DATE:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 5:08 p.m.

 Response To:  Re: Unschooling-Help!!
      Author:  VickiC
        Date:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 5:06 p.m.




               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Oh Sandi, I can relate to some of your troubles...
      AUTHOR:  annette
        DATE:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 5:09 p.m.

 Response To:  Unschooling-Help!!
      Author:  Sandi
        Date:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 8:30 a.m.



You have gotten some excellent advice here. I totally agree with the
idea of doing chores and math WITH him. Just when you think you won't
or shouldn't need to provide that kind of nurturing is when the need
pops up and shocks you that it has reared its head once again. Even
8th grade boys are not too old to need their momma's love and care.
(Even if they won't admit it, LOL) From your post I picked up that
he is desperately wanting and needing some guidance with school. Not
for you to do everything for him, but to be the facillitator. Direct
him to where he can find information on whatever it is that he is
interested in. It sounds like he likes science fiction. Maybe you
could surprise him with some sci-fi books that are just for pleasure
reading. My son loves sports. I went to the used book store and picked
up some sports biogrphies and brought them home. I told him that I
had gotten him something and showed him what it was and left it at
that. He took them into his room and before I knew it, he had read
them all and was asking for more. I never brought it up, I didn't
act euphoric to see him coming out of his ban on reading. I just said
I'd keep my eyes open for more. Believe me, it took ALOT of will power
on my part to pull off this performance and not throw my arms around
him and LOL in joy. I am just seeing that especially at this age,
succeed or fail, these boys (and girls too I'm sure) are needing reassurance
that they are loved and accepted. I am struggling right now with my
son too so I hope that I don't sound like a know it all. I'm most
certainly not and am just trying to find my way along with everyone
else. Hang in there and let us know how it goes.


               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Countering the negativity is Job One
      AUTHOR:  Sandi
        DATE:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 5:28 p.m.

 Response To:  Countering the negativity is Job One
      Author:  Cerelle
        Date:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 12:11 p.m.



> To my way of thinking, laziness
> is a symptom, not a disease in itself.
> Ditto negativity. The real questions
> here are: WHY is your son so negative?
> WHY does he seem uncooperative and combative?>>

I don't know!! I'm thinking it's just teenage hormones. He was not
like this until about age 12 or so. At least not to this degree. And
it's only now that relatives are noticing it and commenting (to us)
that he's so lazy, negative, argumentative.
>

> I'd try to find out, and I'd put
> everything else on hold until I had
> a handle on the real problem. The two
> messages I hear coming from him are
> "I cannot," and "I will
> not." That's a lot of "nots,"
> all right! I also hear a lot of ANGER.>>

I've been trying to find out. I've been trying to spend time with
him, talk to him, but he's resistant. Don't know why he's so angry.
When I ask him he says, "I don't know."
>

> He might need help dealing with
> anger and blame. Maybe he has a hard
> time tolerating the idea of accepting
> personal responsibility for his actions.
> He may be very depressed (which often
> goes hand in hand with "laziness"
> and negativity), or he may be feeling
> like the family scapegoat. Are unpleasant
> episodes often blamed on him? Is he
> the "problem" in the family?
> This kind of thing tends to be self-perpetuating
> -- kids will "live down" to
> their perceived role in family dynamics.>>

No, to the unpleasant episodes being blamed on him, unless it WAS
due to him. It's usually his sister that's the problem when they fight.
He does not accept responsiblility for his actions though. If I say,
"You forgot to take out the trash," he'll counter with, "But Kristin
didn't do her chores." He literally brings her into every conversation
when he's being scolded. "You need to take a shower, there's church
tomorrow." He'll say, "But Kristin didn't take a shower either!"
>

> I am not suggesting you sit idly
> by while he wreaks havoc in the household.
> In fact, I would insist on KINDNESS.
> ("Kindness" includes helping
> out with chores when someone else isn't
> feeling good and letting someone else
> have a turn at the computer.) But I
> would also spend a lot of time LISTENING
> to what he's really saying behind all
> the negative words and deeds. You might
> have to read between his words, guess
> what's really going on in his head,
> and check to see if you've understood
> what he's thinking and feeling. >>

How do you enforce the kindness? We've tried this and he says he doesn't
have to, we can't make him. He doesn't want to be nice to his sister
because "she's a pain." Here's an example. Today they were playing
(!) and she had him tie her up and lock her in the dog crate. He then
left the room and was talking to me. She called him, crying, because
she was trying to get loose and got her hand stuck. He literally SCREAMED
at her, "What do you want?" I got angry and told him HE had tied her
up and now she was crying and he HAD to go see what she wanted, and
help her get loose, and there was NO need to scream at her like that.
I mean, it was a nasty, mean, scream.

> Calling a person lazy or difficult
> NEVER solves the problem. It may be
> TRUE, but it doesn't get you anywhere,
> because the labels don't change anything
> -- they only describe a condition that
> already exists. >>

We don't tell him this to his face. This is us talking. And relatives
telling us (in Spanish, so he doesn't understand. But he IS lazy!!
He won't even throw his used kleenex into his trash can because it's
too far to walk 2 feet from his bed to the trash can in the closet
(next to the bed). He throws them on the floor and then gets offended
when we tell him to pick them up, it's disgusting to throw trash on
the floor. He's stopped eating breakfast lately, I think, because
he's too lazy to prepare it. It's after 10:30 when he gets up and
he figures it's easier to wait until lunch time. Meanwhile, he's cranky
because he's hungry! How hard is it to pour a bowl of cereal?

> This calls for a sharpening of
> your parenting skills, rather than a
> decision about whether to go back to
> using a curriculum. If your son can
> start feeling happy again and at peace
> within the family and the world, the
> learning will go more smoothly, no matter
> which homeschooling style you choose.>>

I'm trying. I even bought Dodson's book on parenting the strong-willed
child. And I have the book, How to Really Love Your Teenager. I've
read them and tried some of the stuff. I wasn't even considering a
curriculum or worrying about academics until HE kept bringing it up,
how he didn't like unschooling, it "sucks". He told me that he thought
it meant he could do whatever he wants and when I ask him to do chores
he's not doing whatever he wants, and therefore, unschooling is not
"worth it." He says he doesn't know if he wants a curriculum, after
telling me maybe he should do a curriculum!! And then he says, "Anyway,
I don't want to do any curriculums you suggest. I don't like any of
them." He has no ideas of what he DOES want to do, even when I tell
him all that is available and let him read about them. He doesn't
want to read about them!!!

See where I'm at? Are your teens like this? Sounds like rebellion
to me. At least it's not drugs, drinking, sex, etc. Although he can't
wait until he's old enough to drink beer. He wants to go to college
so he can drink beer. (His grandfather, my father, has let him sip
some of his when he visits, and Ricky says he LOVES beer).
>

I'm just so frustrated, can you tell ? By the way, after our "talk"
this afternoon, I went my own way and he did his thing, and ended
up doing math in his book! If I leave him alone, he usually does what
he fights against, anyway. I never told him to do math, btw, just
told him not to blame me when he found out he maybe should have done
math this year when he's not ready for Algebra next year, likes he
wants to be. Totally his choice. Really. He is totally into wanting
to be doing what his ps peers are doing that I know if he calls himself
a 9th grader next year and is not doing Algebra I he will be very
upset and will tell me it's my fault. I KNOW him and how he thinks.
I don't want to be blamed anymore for his not learning or held responsible
for his learning when all he does is fight me on it. Yet he is adamant
about not wanting to go to school....

Frustrated Sandi

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     MESSAGE:  Re: Countering the negativity is Job One
      AUTHOR:  Rob
        DATE:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 6:07 p.m.

 Response To:  Re: Countering the negativity is Job One
      Author:  Sandi
        Date:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 5:28 p.m.



OK, after you talked to him, he read math on his own. Talk tohim again
tomorrow. But not about school. Two opening sentences, "So, what's
going on?" and (oh, no, I forgot!). He wants to talk but he's too
old to be hugged and talk to mom.

He's trying to build up his own importance and self worth by downgrading
his sister. He does everything better than his sister I bet he claims.
Sister is stupid, guess what sister did that was dumb, etc. I can't
say I know what to say here. I've said "it doesn't matter what she
does, it doesn't affect you" but I come across right up front as I
know what you're doing. Putting your sister down does not build you
up. In fact, it makes everybody, including me, upset with you. You
are not a better person by making fun of you sister. Other people
look down on you for that.

I don't know how well that works. Personal attention does wonders.
He may say things like, things were better until she was born. (I've
heard all this stuff, by the way).

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     MESSAGE:  Re: Countering the negativity is Job One
      AUTHOR:  Pam
        DATE:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 6:54 p.m.

 Response To:  Re: Countering the negativity is Job One
      Author:  Rob
        Date:  Tuesday, 20 October 1998, at 6:07 p.m.



I, too, can relate to your problem with your son.I have three sons
and the oldest (15) acted just that way last fall. It got bad enough
to where we finally went to a family counselor. End result? He was
depressed. Upon diagnosis, medication, and counseling things actually
lightened up. I think a real break through was when he got a job this
summer. Yes, he still displays "lazy" tendencies, but the general
atmosphere around here is alot more pleasant to live with. His biggest
trouble is with his middle brother (9) who he sees in the same way
as your daughter. I don't know if this is a normal thing with kids
this age, but the counseling, medication, and job sure helped. Oh,
also, this year I hs each of them separately, different times of day;
seems to work, less chance for them to "cross horns" so to speak.


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