Digests from the KALEIDOSCAPES MONTHLY TOPIC
(HOMESCHOOLING) DISCUSSION BOARD
These are the original digests from Kaleidoscapes' MONTHLY TOPIC discussion boards.
They were hosted by two amazing gals: Giovanna Gomez and Cerelle Woods Simmons.
The boards are no longer available (thus, links to them won't work); you can, however, still
find many of the same wonderful folks who posted on the boards at Network 54.
Finally, there are no banners or pop-up ads throughout these digests.
Hopefully you will consider shopping through our Amazon links occasionally.
(Thanks!)
Back to the Digest Index
Inclusion/Exclusion -- Social Issues in Homeschooling: Part 1
#3: WELCOME TO THIS MONTH'S TOPIC! (Giovanna)
#4: socialization (long) (Vivian)
#5: A TOTAL myth, of course! (dawne)
#6: Non Homeschooling Friends (Giovanna)
#7: Re: WELCOME TO THIS MONTH'S TOPIC! (Annette)
#8: Ok... This MAY have to do with "socialization"... (Giovanna)
#9: I'm not having fun yet! (long) (Katie in VA)
#10: Do I smell a unit study in the works?? (dawne)
#11: ((hug)) (dawne)
#12: I've been thinking about this a lot.... (dawne)
#13: Re: I'm not having fun yet! (long) (Giovanna)
#16: I have an opinion on this... (Jolee F)
#17: Social Skills (Cyndi)
#18: Re: Ok... This MAY have to do with "socialization" (Deanne V. in Al)
#20: Re: I have an opinion on this...(LONG) (Susan)
#21: Re: Ok... This MAY have to do with "socialization" (Liz)
#22: Re: A TOTAL myth, of course! (Liz)
#23: I took the plunge! (Katie in VA)
#24: RE: Spreading the message (Liz)
#25: Re: I've been thinking about this a lot.... (Liz)
#26: My $.02 (Barbara C.)
#27: This is great! (Kimmer)
#28: Anyone deal with this brand of exclusion? (Kimmer)
#30: Re: Anyone deal with this brand of exclusion? (Mary)
#31: Re: Anyone deal with this brand of exclusion? (Katie in VA)
#32: THIS IS AWFUL! :-( (Giovanna)
#33: Good for you! (Giovanna)
#35: Re: Anyone deal with this brand of exclusion? (Liz)
#37: just a thought (dawne)
#39: Re: Anyone deal with this brand of exclusion? (Annette)
#41: Wow, Giovanna -- I think we hit a nerve! :) (Cerelle)
#43: GO KATIE! (Cerelle)
#44: That shyness thing...:-) (Kimmer)
#45: Re: That shyness thing...:-) (Annette)
#49: Awful in one way, great in another... (Kimmer)
#52: Exciting update! (Katie in VA)
#53: Mentors (Giovanna)
#55: Happens here all the time (Kim T.)
#56: Just an idea (amy)
#58: totally relate (stoney)
#60: Socialization Trap (Nedra)
#61: no, what did it say in a nutshell?? nt (dawne)
#62: New Breed of Home Schoolers (Liz)
#63: Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers (Mary)
#64: Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers (Debbie G.)
#65: Yes, I've seen this too. (Lee)
#66: parents in general (Nedra)
#67: family life (Nedra)
#68: Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers (Giovanna)
#69: Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers (Michelle)
#70: Re: Yes, I've seen this too. (Liz)
#71: Let's not mix issues! (Katie in VA)
#72: Should I butt in? (Lee)
#73: Re: Should I butt in? (Annette)
#74: Yes.... (Katie in VA)
#75: Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers (Suz)
#77: Considering HS but scared of the social isolation (Michelle)
#78: This is a good point (Giovanna)
#79: Giovanna, please let me know if you find that easy (Suz)
#80: I *SO* agree (Kristen AKA cur)
#81: Re: This is a good point (Cerelle)
#82: About the social skills of some adults... (Cerelle)
#83: Re: I *SO* agree (Giovanna)
#84: Once upon a time.... (Giovanna)
#85: Re: Considering HS but scared of the social isolat (Annette)
#86: Lots of thoughts, take what you need - ditch the r (dawne)
#87: Re: Should I butt in? (dawne)
#88: Re: Once upon a time.... (Cerelle)
#89: Re: Once upon a time.... (Giovanna)
#90: Socialization with "others" (relates to thread bel (Suz)
#91: How to make inclusive group work (Katie in VA)
#92: Good job, Suz! (Cerelle)
#93: Woo hoo! Look at you go! (Cerelle)
#94: Re: How to make inclusive group work (dawne)
#95: Re: Good job, Suz! (Suz)
#96: Re: Good job, Suz! (Annette)
#97: The importance of seeing people and not categories (Kimmer)
#98: Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers (Michelle)
#99: Re: Considering HS but scared of the social isolat (Michelle)
#100: Ignorance? (Giovanna)
#101: Excellent post (Annette)
#102: Re: How to make inclusive group work (Katie in VA)
#104: Thank you, Michelle :) (Cerelle)
#105: Re: The importance of seeing people and not catego (Liz)
#106: Re: Socialization with "others" (relates to thread (Liz)
#107: Re: Considering HS but scared of the social isolat (Liz)
#108: Well said! (Carol in Ohio)
#109: trying my question again... (Denise)
#110: Re: trying my question again... (Annette)
#111: Re: trying my question again... (Susan)
#112: HMMM do you think (Suz)
#113: Re: trying my question again... (Liz)
#114: Re: HMMM do you think (Susan)
#115: Healthy support group (Peggy)
#116: Re: Thank you, Michelle :) (Michelle)
#117: Re: Ignorance? (Michelle)
#118: Re: Ignorance? (Giovanna)
#119: Re: Ignorance? (Susan)
#120: More Hugs for Michelle (Suz)
#121: Ignorant Parents (Suz)
#122: BINGO! (Giovanna)
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#3) WELCOME TO THIS MONTH'S TOPIC!
AUTHOR: Giovanna
DATE: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 5:57 p.m.
Who would like to start us off in our discussion?
The floor is open!
How has inclusion/exclusion helped/hindered you in homeschooling circles?
Is the "socialization" factor a total myth or is there some truth to it?
How about with you? Do you find that homeschooling socially isolates you? If
so then why?
I'm looking forward to a good discussion.
:-)
Giovanna
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#4) socialization (long)
AUTHOR: Vivian
DATE: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 9:03 p.m.
Reply To: (#3) WELCOME TO THIS MONTH'S TOPIC!
Author: Giovanna
Date: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 5:57 p.m.
When we first started hsing 8 years ago,it was hard to find a group of people
to hang out with.The local support group was exclusive pertaining to
religion.After a couple of years,we were fortunate to be able to be involved
with some other people in starting an inclusive group. We have had our share
of struggles as an inclusive group too,but think we do real well handling all
the diversity. One key element has been our montly newsletter and posting
everything in advance,so activities could be carefully considered before
showing up. The socialization factor is a myth in our case.I was very worried
to begin with,but now laugh that I was ever worried.No way are we
isolated...sometimes I wonder what exactly we need to drop out of in order to
balance life and slow it down. We don't participate as much as I wish we could
even in our homeschool group since our church activities and scouting also
play major roles in our lives.Homeschooling has definitely enriched the lives
of all in the family,parents and children!
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#5) A TOTAL myth, of course!
AUTHOR: dawne
DATE: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 9:10 p.m.
Reply To: (#3) WELCOME TO THIS MONTH'S TOPIC!
Author: Giovanna
Date: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 5:57 p.m.
Giovanna, Great topic and very timely. I've been discussing the "S" word with
a friend lately :-)
: Is the "socialization" factor a total
: myth or is there some truth to it?
I'm not saying that homeschoolers, like EVERYONE else, shouldn't bear in mind
that socialization is important. What I refute is that by virtue of being
homeschooled our kids are at risk to "not be socialized properly". I've seen
the difference in my own son in the past 8 months. He is back to being loving
and kind and generous in spirit. When I talk to the hs-ed kids I know of ALL
ages what I am most impressed with is how easily we can converse. They don't
seem so focused on being too hip for grown ups. I see siblings with a very
close bond. The bond my children now share. I am always impressed with how
well the various ages blend together. Hs kids get that same group dynamic that
ps kids. They just aren't a "captive" audience and they aren't forced into
groups because of how old they are. I guess what I am trying to say is that
the hs kids I know seem to appreciate each other more. They aren't perfect and
there can be little tiffs here and there but I have NEVER seen a fist fight.
: How about with you? Do you find that
: homeschooling socially isolates you? If so
: then why?
Let me mention two things. #1 my daughter, almost 3, sees more kids her age
then she ever did when big brother was in school. We aren't racing about...
scheduling play dates around the bus schedule. We are free spirits now. If we
are somewhere and are having a good time we can stay! #2 Being a hs mom has
given me friends. HIGH quality friendships that had been lacking in my life. I
know I will see a certain group of women in Spanish class, another in Writing
club. I have things to look forward to also. I'm networking effectively and it
isn't just my kids who are benefiting. I am too!
: How has inclusion/exclusion helped/hindered you
: in homeschooling circles?
When we decided to homeschool, mid-year last year, it was b/c of something
traumatic in the ps my son attended. I met so many hs-ers who were very
cliquish and judgemental. Many of them were very busy trying to save my soul
or something. At that point I was afraid that socialization would be an issue.
I was fairly panic stricken. when I found the group I belong to now I almost
cried with relief. A very inclusive group full of loving and tolerant
families. I move in circles full of very religious people to people who are
very spiritual to the outright atheist. Because TOLERANCE is the goal that
really bonds us we are able to work together and the kids really benefit. We
share resources, organize field trips and play dates. That same tolerance
helps enrich my kids b/c in that atmosphere conversations about religion are
interesting and even welcome. A great give and take of ideas, feelings and
opinions. It presents great opportunites for meaty discussions. My son and I
often talk about this or that and its wonderful how the child's mind works. He
always has something important and profound to add to the discussion. The
members of this inclusive group accept me for me which makes it easier for me
to really find out who THEY are. We've always run in fairly diverse circles
but I am amazed at how much more so our friends are now that we are hs-ers.
I have noticed a lot of my non-hs friends pulling away from me. I have to call
them. I invite them over but they always have a zillion other things to do
instead. Its odd, but I don't really miss them that much.
: I'm looking forward to a good discussion.
me too. Dawne
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#6) Non Homeschooling Friends
AUTHOR: Giovanna
DATE: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 9:16 p.m.
Reply To: (#5) A TOTAL myth, of course!
Author: dawne
Date: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 9:10 p.m.
: I have noticed a lot of my non-hs friends
: pulling away from me. I have to call them. I
: invite them over but they always have a
: zillion other things to do instead. Its odd,
: but I don't really miss them that much.
Why do you think this is happening?
Why is it that the ps/hs issue seems to weigh so heavy on people's
relationships? It's almost like a dividing line... "you homeschool, I don't,
therefore we don't have anything in common and I don't want to pursue a
friendship with you." It hasn't happened to me. I guess I'm blessed because I
know it's happened to quite a few people.
Giovanna
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#7) Re: WELCOME TO THIS MONTH'S TOPIC!
AUTHOR: Annette
DATE: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 9:17 p.m.
Reply To: (#3) WELCOME TO THIS MONTH'S TOPIC!
Author: Giovanna
Date: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 5:57 p.m.
: Who would like to start us off in our
: discussion?
I will! This is a subject close to my heart.
: How has inclusion/exclusion helped/hindered you
: in homeschooling circles?
I have home schooled for 8 years and I have been included and excluded by
different branches of the home schooling community. I was in a support group
for 7 years that decided to ask all charter school members (which I am) to
leave. This was at first very hurtful and produced some real lonely home
schooling periods for me. However, through this sad occurrence I have found
that there is a whole 'nother home schooling world out there! Hooray! My views
have changed, my convictions, my goals, and I am feeling pretty good about
where I am at. I have a much broader view.
: Is the "socialization" factor a total
: myth or is there some truth to it?
IME The socialization factor is defintely a total myth. Two of my children and
myself are very people oriented...as in we *NEED* daily interaction with
people. Since this is our natural makeup we have no problem meeting people
wherever we go. All three of my kids are social...one is just more quiet than
the rest of us...we admire her greatly. :o) All of us always have plenty to
do. The kids are involved in sports, community service, have lots of friends,
and have no problems going into new situations. For us socialization has not
been a problem.
: How about with you? Do you find that
: homeschooling socially isolates you? If so
: then why?
No, I don't feel isolated at all. I only have one child at home this
year...however for the 7 years prior to this I have had all three and the
freedom we have always had because of home schooling has lent itself to lots
of fun, meaningful friendships. I go walking each day and have met many people
that way. I guess for me since I know I don't do well when I am isolated I
choose not be isolated. Even if it means driving more or spending more money.
I meet friends regularly for coffee. It is a high priority to me so I make it
happen. We live in a rural community so at times it can be inconvenient but to
me its worth it.
:
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#8) Ok... This MAY have to do with "socialization"...
AUTHOR: Giovanna
DATE: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 9:31 p.m.
Here's one for you....
My son (soon to be 8) is totally clueless about "personal space". What to do?
If we go to the store sometimes he bumps into people. Actually, he walks right
through them and it's like HE DOESN'T EVEN NOTICE!
Yes, I've talked with him. I spoken to him about being polite and all of that.
I don't think he quite "gets it."
I've almost got him to at least say, "excuse me" so I think we are making
progress! whew! :-)
I don't know how else to explain it but he just isn't too "aware" of people
around him or what's going on. He gets very "into himself". If he wants to
browse that Star Wars magazine in the newstand rack and someone is in front of
him he doesn't just carefully walk around the person. He just GOES FOR THE
MAGAZINE! I don't know how to explain it better. He isn't being malicious. He
just doesn't seem to have much tact and I'm at a loss as to how to teach him
tact.
Any suggestions?
Do I think this has something to do with being "homeschooled?" I don't. His
sister has darling manners. It's his personality, I think. He is not very
outgoing, although he isn't shy. He doesn't make too much eye contact with
people when he talks to them.
I think he thinks conversation is sort of trivial! He reminds me a little of
his dad although dad has gotten a lot more friendlier and outgoing with age.
Giovanna
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#9) I'm not having fun yet! (long)
AUTHOR: Katie in VA
DATE: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 9:35 p.m.
Reply To: (#3) WELCOME TO THIS MONTH'S TOPIC!
Author: Giovanna
Date: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 5:57 p.m.
I have been homeschooling an only child for about a month and I am having a
tough time. Socially, my 6yo son is bright and friendly, but he is sensitive
and creative and doesn't click with a lot of boys--none of the four living
around the corner from us. (They are sports oriented and my son is very
uncoordinated.) :o( It didn't even occur to me that religion would be a big
issue in hs groups. In my area, there are exclusive religion-based groups (and
although I have nothing against religion or spirituality, I feel it's a deeply
personal issue that I don't want to address in an hs group) and a group that
is an "inclusive" group, which is full. They claim they are introverts who are
overwhelmed by newcomers and so, won't include me!!! I am desperately lonely.
My son is happy to have me all to himself, but I am being smothered. And I
know he needs playmates. To make matters worse, we are broke right now because
of testing and treatment my son is receiving for LDs, so I can't put him in
any classes right now. We are in Tiger Cubs (once a month!). We are going to
attend hs activities in a nearby community, which are posted on a local site,
but the snow has delayed our attendance. I know this is going to take time.
And I am starting a truly inclusive group, which I'm told has a good chance of
not getting off the ground. Sorry to sound so sorry for myself. This is a
profound change that came upon me quite unexpectedly when my son began to have
problems in 1st grade. Thanks for posting this topic. I'll look forward to
hearing what others have to say.... Katie
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#10) Do I smell a unit study in the works??
AUTHOR: dawne
DATE: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 9:55 p.m.
Reply To: (#8) Ok... This MAY have to do with "socialization"...
Author: Giovanna
Date: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 9:31 p.m.
Well...you are right that you can't nec. "teach" tactfulness. I'm sure you are
doing your best to model appropriate behavior but he's just not gettin it
[grin]. Why not a unit study on personal space? It differs culture to culture.
Throw in a little geography and ya got yerself a real lesson!
Personal space and gestures, and how they vary by culture is really
fascinating to me. Maybe for your son it will click b/c he will be comparing
US norms to those around the world. And when in Rome...
Dawne
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#11) ((hug))
AUTHOR: dawne
DATE: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 10:02 p.m.
Reply To: (#9) I'm not having fun yet! (long)
Author: Katie in VA
Date: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 9:35 p.m.
Its almost eerie how similar our situations seem.
All I can tell you is that I think your group WILL flourish and all that "my
group is full" stuff seems like rubbish.
We're next to broke a lot of the time so I can relate.
What I've done is started things I wanted him to have. Example, I was one of 5
moms to start a writing club. The church is great about us using the space.
After the club in good weather we can use their park for about an hour. I can
keep a good eye on my kids while talking to other moms. Its only 2 times a
month but I look forward to it.
I'm also the queen of good stuff free. Our local museums are such a resource.
We go to events and kids classes, FREE, at least 2 times a month. Invite a few
other moms and VIOLA - hs date. No real planning, no expense except parking
meter. No need to gather supplies or even clean up!
You are taking all the right steps and I salute you for that. The hardest part
I guess is waiting for the snow and ice to GO AWAY! [can you tell I HATE
snow???]
Keep your chin up, dawne
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#12) I've been thinking about this a lot....
AUTHOR: dawne
DATE: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 10:17 p.m.
Reply To: (#6) Non Homeschooling Friends
Author: Giovanna
Date: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 9:16 p.m.
: Why do you think this is happening?
Very good question.
: Why is it that the ps/hs issue seems to weigh
: so heavy on people's relationships? It's
: almost like a dividing line... "you
: homeschool, I don't, therefore we don't have
: anything in common and I don't want to
: pursue a friendship with you."
Giovanna you are right. It can be a dividing line. When you start to
homeschool your non-hs friends think you are strange. Its a drag always
countering foolish "S" questions. When you meet and click with hs moms who
"get it" then they just "get it" and don't need explanation.
Additionally, I have heard so much of this tired old line "how can you stand
to have your kids around you all day?" You get tired of hearing "I can't wait
for the school bus to pick up mine each morning". Even my PTA acquaintances
would say that at times.
When my non-hs friends gripe about the ps system all I do is listen and try to
support them. While this is a GReAT service to them it really is a DIS-service
to me. What do I mean by that?? Well....I can't grab the phone and call them
and tell them about this or that great thing happening to us. When they ask
"how did your day go?" they don't really want to know that it was filled with
more joy than workbook drudgery. This past week around here we were snowed in.
Gripe, gripe and gripe. Having kids underfoot urks them. Not being able to
"get out" to sports and such urks them. I get the feeling that its run, run,
run so that they don't actually have to "be" with their kid.
They are never available b/c they spend M_F night running about doing the
dance classes, martial arts etc.., that hs-ers do in the day.
When you meet a hs-er you click with you really click. You hash out hs
philosphy and the ups and downs of hs-ing. You see that FAMILY so much that
the families do become friends in a lasting way. It feels good to know your
kids' friends. Even better when that mom is your friend too.
I have a few friends who aren't hs-ers who love those precious times when they
can be with their kids. They just live far away :-(
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#13) Re: I'm not having fun yet! (long)
AUTHOR: Giovanna
DATE: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 10:44 p.m.
Reply To: (#9) I'm not having fun yet! (long)
Author: Katie in VA
Date: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 9:35 p.m.
: And I am starting a truly
: inclusive group, which I'm told has a good
: chance of not getting off the ground.
SAYS WHO???? WHY?
Think of all of those people who were turned away by the "introvert" group.
Get out there and advertise! I'm sure there are other people who would love to
meet you!
Giovanna
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#16) I have an opinion on this...
AUTHOR: Jolee F
DATE: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 12:04 a.m.
Reply To: (#6) Non Homeschooling Friends
Author: Giovanna
Date: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 9:16 p.m.
I think that many times our friends come from the environment we are currently
in. When we are in ps, many friends are parents of our kid's friends, or
people we meet through the school. When you leave that common bond,
relationships tend to struggle and most die out.
I have two real friends left from public school (even though my younger two
only came out of ps this year). One is the mother of my daughter's best friend
(which they have maintained even being in different schooling situations). The
other left the school we were at earlier for another school. We had already
maintained our relationship through that. The rest have fizzled out. (partly
because I hs-ed my oldest last year and was hardly around my younger kids'
school.)
This same thing happens when you physically move. I think this phenomenon is
the cause for much of the drop of in adult AND kid relationships.
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#17) Social Skills
AUTHOR: Cyndi
DATE: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 12:17 a.m.
I think the statement that had the biggest impact on me when I began three
years ago was about who we want our children to learn social skills from. We
send them off to the PS to learn their manners and social skills from other 7
year olds. We really can't be surprised about the outcome!!
I have to say I too am very impressed with the conversations and interaction
between children of all different ages. It is so nice to be able to converse
with children that seem to be so comfortable around adult and children alike.
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#18) Re: Ok... This MAY have to do with "socialization"
AUTHOR: Deanne V. in Al
DATE: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 4:37 a.m.
Reply To: (#8) Ok... This MAY have to do with "socialization"...
Author: Giovanna
Date: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 9:31 p.m.
My children are very similar about personal space. I really worried about my
daughter when she was younger, but I don't really any more. She now has a
large personal space and doesn't bother people any more, I think. She's not
perfect and can be self-centered enough to get in the way of other people
(like park the grocery carriage in the middle of the aisle so someone can't
get past), but I see grownups do this all the time!
My son is still like this a little bit, but he also is better than when he was
younger. I also don't notice him brushing past people in stores, the way my
daughter did--or at least not that much or as obviously as when she did it.
However, my son will sit SO close to me or to someone else that it makes them
uncomfortable. This is just family and close friends, though.
However, I do wonder if more kids aren't like this when young (not having a
developed sense of personal space) and parents just don't notice it because
their kids are in school most of the time? :-) I just know this was a BIG
concern for me a few years ago (I think you may remember this, Giovanna hehe)
and now it seems to have mostly gone away. Now I have other concerns. LOL
Deanne
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#20) Re: I have an opinion on this...(LONG)
AUTHOR: Susan
DATE: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 8:49 a.m.
Reply To: (#16) I have an opinion on this...
Author: Jolee F
Date: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 12:04 a.m.
Taking off a bit on the analogy that compares moving with changing from ps to
hs--it is my feeling that in this country, we pay a great price for the
freedoms we so cherish, such as the freedom to move to a new town or state
whenever the whim strikes.
While this freedom can be wonderful from an economic perspective, I believe it
is subtly devastating in ways that most people seem not to notice. This
constant moving--that so many families accept now as routine--is one more
factor in raising another "rootless" generation. It takes a lot of energy to
develop new friendships and networks (especially if you're not a natural
extrovert).
I suppose the same is true on for those of us who started our kids in ps and
switched to hs. That we must work to build a new network of support. In our
case, there was a fundamentalist Christian group already active, but very
exclusive; we are still working to build support among a smaller group of hs
families whose primary consideration was academics rather than religion. It's
tough!
Many of our former ps pals have pulled away, which brings up another opinion I
have--that a much higher % of ps parents are "herd animals" than are hs
parents. I've never been a herd animal and am still amazed when I am reminded
(usually painfully) that most people are, and that they are intimidated
whenever someone takes a different path from the majority. I try to have
compassion (as opposed to pain or anger), and tell myself it is not personal
that they pull away whenever we do something a little different.
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#21) Re: Ok... This MAY have to do with "socialization"
AUTHOR: Liz
DATE: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 9:15 a.m.
Reply To: (#8) Ok... This MAY have to do with "socialization"...
Author: Giovanna
Date: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 9:31 p.m.
:I'm not sure the "space" issue is a social issue. My dd is/was the same way.
I say, "Is/was," because it IS getting better. She bumped into me and stepped
on my feet etc. no matter where we were. One day my husband came home and told
me about a mother and daughter he saw together in the bank. He was laughing
because the little girl was stepping all over her mom's feet. The mom would
move and the dd would land on her foot again . . . and again. He said to the
woman, "I'll bet she's about 8 or 9." The mother nodded and laughed. Today, dd
is ten (almost eleven) and growing into a young lady far too fast. She is more
conscious about where she steps and who is around her. She bumps into people
less and steps on my feet less; however, sometimes my feet still find
themselves the victim of a loving child who enjoys standing as close to me as
she can. I guess I will someday look back and wish we were back to those days
again when she couldn't get close enough to me. Remember the old saying, "when
they're young they step on your toes and when they're older they step on your
heart." I guess children have been having a time with personal space for many
years. I would make him aware of it but not make a huge issue of it . . . just
protect your feet. Liz in SC
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#22) Re: A TOTAL myth, of course!
AUTHOR: Liz
DATE: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 9:46 a.m.
Reply To: (#5) A TOTAL myth, of course!
Author: dawne
Date: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 9:10 p.m.
Dawne, You and I share similar opinions on several issues. I was listening to
a speaker on a Christian radio program the other day. She mentioned that the
cruelty among children was strong and well (and on the grounds of Christian
schools as well as secular), of course, I already knew that. DD doesn't need
to learn that at school. We have homeschooled her from gr. 1. She has become
one of those wonderful children who accepts all and who is kind to everyone. I
was so suprised the other day when she told me about this one child with whom
she really didn't enjoy spending time. When questioned about it (she never
showed any discontent about being with her) she told me that the little girl
didn't have many friends and she felt sorry for her. She went on to say that
she didn't mind giving up some of her time to be with this girl, but that when
the girl found some good friends she would be glad to back out of the picture.
So many of the hs children are this way. They tolerate differences in each
other and seem to respect the important things. That is a social lesson that
just doesn't come across in a conventional school situation. I found that the
social issue was easier when dd was younger. Now that she is older, she is
reaching outside of the hs community for much of her socialization and is
being introduced to attitudes etc. that aren't always in sync. with what we
are accustomed to dealing with. It takes constant feed back on our part, but
so far, she is holding her own. I have found that even the youth group at our
church is introducing her to children who have social views that are very much
against what I prefer for her. We seem to be dealing with it, though. She is
open with us, so we are able to discuss the behavior, attitude, and language
of some of the group members. We talk about the right and wrong of it and how
it fits into our life style. I have noticed,lately, that the few that she
seems to be allowing into the "inner circle" of friends is becoming more and
more selective. There are only two or three girls whom she envites to spend
the night or to take trips with her, yet she is friendly to all. Hopefully,
she is beginning the application phase of all that we have taught her up to
now. I see the teen years a little differently from the way many see them. I
see them as I time for my child to apply what we have taught her, and I
believe that much of the teen problems are a result of the socialization at
the elementary level . . . a socialization with standards set in a
conventional school setting and a direct result of rubbing elbows with
children who believe differently, speak differently, and respect differently
than my child does. After all, if a friendly dog is thrown in with a pack of
vicious dogs, that little dog is going to have to fight, too, if it wants to
survive. In closing, let me say that I think this is a great topic because it
is about the only topic left with which those opposed to homeschooling can hit
us. Liz in SC
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#23) I took the plunge!
AUTHOR: Katie in VA
DATE: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 10:00 a.m.
This topic is soooo perfect for me. I was so inspired by this board, last
night I posted an announcement about starting a new group on every local hs
message board I could find! I am so excited. I know this is going to work. And
I'm going to be patient. It's possible I'll get the most interest in the fall,
rather than this time of year when a lot of people are already committed. I am
so grateful for places like this to get inspiration and support! Katie
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#24) RE: Spreading the message
AUTHOR: Liz
DATE: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 10:05 a.m.
Our home school support group has targeted the veterans at our local VA
Hospital as our "Special" group; we do little volunteer projects for them from
time to time. Because we have several talented children in our group, we
decided to put a show together for them. We recreated a Bob Hope USO show
similar to those which were brought to the European/Asian fronts during the
war years. We put on two productions and were approached by a parent about
putting on a third at a senior dinner at his church. He told us that there was
a lot of misconception and mystery about home schoolers; he felt that seeing
the children perform would open their eyes and show them that they were not,
in fact, the sheltered children which people thought they were. Well, we
decided to do the show for them. In the front of our programs I wrote a short
biography about each child in the show. I must admit that I was suprised at
the artistic achievements, the community outreach, and the academic awards
credited to most of these children. We had Duke Scholars, published authors,
accomplished musicians, and accomplished dancers. It was the best performance
of the three. The audience was so very responsive to the children. They
laughed and applauded and the children, of course, played to their enthusiasm
and performed better than ever. After the show I had several people approach
me and tell me how much they had enjoyed it. One WWII veteran told me that he
had seen many of the "real" Bob Hope shows, but this was the one which he most
enjoyed. The person who had enlisted our participation apporached me and told
me that not one, but several, barriers had been removed that evening. Because
our children are not publically visible, we are seen as unusual or different
or sometimes worse. When in the view of the public their collective
significance shines like the sun. I have said many many times that we
homeschoolers solicit "quality socialization" for our children. We are
particular, but we do socialize . . . well. I am going to push for more
visibility in the form of community outreach. I think it is good for
homeschooling, the children, and the community. Liz in SC
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#25) Re: I've been thinking about this a lot....
AUTHOR: Liz
DATE: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 10:29 a.m.
Reply To: (#12) I've been thinking about this a lot....
Author: dawne
Date: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 10:17 p.m.
: Very good question.
I used to teach for the Catholic Schools. When I left teaching to hs, people
actually stopped speaking to me . . . people with whom I had interacted for
ages. My Parish Priest asked me, outright, why I did not have her in our local
Catholic School. I had to tell him that I had seen too many situations which
were synomous with public school. He avoided me from that point on. As I have
said in another post, dd does have some ps friends. However, the ones she had
as a younger child have gone in other directions now that middle school is
upon them. I must qualify by saying that THEY chose to drop her and not the
other way around. Upon seeing them now and then, I am not sorry. The few that
she still has are the type of children whom I would chose, if I were doing the
chosing. She is now more selective when chosing friends and fewer children
from the ps seem to meet her expectations of what a friend should be or how a
friend should act. I think that comes from careful socialization when the
child is younger. If you show them the qualities to appreciate, they will do
just that when they are older (hopefully). I always qualify that as I have
seen too much to ever say that "something will NEVER happen to me or that my
child will NEVER do something." Sometimes I think that the dividing line
between hs and ps is there because we are seen as bordering crazy or illegal.
We also buck the system which seems to be locked into two parents going out
and making as much money as possible and then spending it on as many toys as
possible. Most of our hs friends are professionals. One parent has given up
their profession to give (what they feel is the best) to their children.
Because of this we live much more modestly than we once lived. We have listed
our priorities and have discarded those which we feel are less important. We
have put our children at the TOP of that list, and i think this bothers some
who choose not to give up the material rewards of two good incomes. I
understand that this does not apply to all, but regardless of one's
profession, homeschooling one's child is a huge committment and one sacrifices
in some way. We are living by a different set of values. I have found that one
of my closest friends is now involved in discussions about our homeschooling
(when we are not in attendance). It comes back to me in little comments etc.
She is now concerned that my dd will not experience boys. She will, but not in
grade six. My friend's children are raised by caretakers and are lacking in
self control. It is embarrasing to go to restaurants with them because of the
behavior of her children, but she sees my daughter as being a loser because
she isn't being exposed to boys in a school setting. I can see this issue as
becoming a dividing factor in our relationship, and we seem to be gravitating
tword other home schoolers. This isn't by design; I miss this friend in my
life, but there is a huge gully growing, and I don't think I can control its
growth. I do think that hs will impact on our social choices as well as those
of our children. Perhaps the impact will not be so great if these social
relationships appear in our lives when our children are older and if they are
ONLY adult oriented, but when they include the entire family, I think they
will occur. I don't want my daughter to spend time with the child who is
dropped off at the skating rink at 7 p.m. and picked up at 11 p.m on Friday
night, so she is going to hang with the children who have other things to do.
I don't want to hand my daughter a video or drop her off at a movie while I
sip coctails with adults who do this with their children. I want to spend an
evening with my child and with families who enjoy the same. She will be grown
up for longer than she will be a child. She will have her own life to live, so
I want to enjoy this part of it. Of course, we do have friends who use ps (a
few), but those that I have are having great concerns about what is or is not
happening in their children's lives and cannot or will not make the
committment to homeschool. It's difficult to counsel these friends when they
come to me, so I have become a listener and really can't help them. The longer
we homeschool the more our friends become fellow homeschoolers. It's just a
fact of my life. Liz in SC
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#26) My $.02
AUTHOR: Barbara C.
DATE: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 11:09 a.m.
Reply To: (#3) WELCOME TO THIS MONTH'S TOPIC!
Author: Giovanna
Date: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 5:57 p.m.
This is a topic I am eager to get into! Thanks!
: How has inclusion/exclusion helped/hindered you
: in homeschooling circles?
We have a few friends who homeschool, but I am not active in support groups.
Why? They tend to be "cliquish" (if that is a word!) and I find that they also
tend to criticize others for the way they homeschool. Also, I go to the
internet for support when I need it. I find many veterans who have been there
and can give advice in a timely manner.
: Is the "socialization" factor a total
: myth or is there some truth to it? For us, "socialization" has some truth in
it. My husband (MOSTLY me) homeschool a 7th grade dd. I also have to work
part-time and am gone from home. My daughter does suffer from not being with a
lot of friends. However, I have noticed that her suffering is lightened by
classes at our church and by a homeschool art class at our local art center.
: How about with you? Do you find that
: homeschooling socially isolates you? If so
: then why? No, I don't. Homeschooling is an accepted "practice" where we
live. Some may not approve, but accept the fact that we homeschool.
Just my $.02! Barbara C.
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#27) This is great!
AUTHOR: Kimmer
DATE: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 11:12 a.m.
Reply To: (#24) RE: Spreading the message
Author: Liz
Date: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 10:05 a.m.
Liz,
This idea is so wonderful, but sadly exactly the opposite of most groups I
know of, which usually want to serve only themselves and fear every shadow
lest it be some PS official or someone with whom they don't have religion in
common with. I add my "hear, hear!" to keep going. :-)
Kimmer :-)
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#28) Anyone deal with this brand of exclusion?
AUTHOR: Kimmer
DATE: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 11:34 a.m.
Hello!
I wanted to see if anyone else has dealt with exclusion in the way I have, or
other ways that I could draw some encouragement from. My case is somewhat
unusual in that I am a very devoted Christian, yet find myself outside most
Christian groups because either I'm too radical (dresses only, "too many"
children) or not rigid enough (dresses not the right color or pattern and "not
enough" children). And, "inclusive" groups are nervous nellies because they've
had such bad experiences with Christians that they figure I'm going to whap
them over the head with a Bible at some point...not the case, but who can
blame them? I've seen the way dogma can bite, myself! :-)
I'm more than happy to make friends from all walks. I am neither dissuaded nor
threatened by people's faiths or lack thereof. But, I find I'm either looked
down on or pose a threat just because of my life and beliefs, depending on the
group at hand.
Any ideas on how to deal with this? Or should I just plan on having a solitary
life...I always figured I was an only child for good reason!
Thanks,
Kimmer :-)
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#30) Re: Anyone deal with this brand of exclusion?
AUTHOR: Mary
DATE: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 4:24 p.m.
Reply To: (#28) Anyone deal with this brand of exclusion?
Author: Kimmer
Date: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 11:34 a.m.
Yes, Kimmer, I do know what you mean. It can be very hurtful.... while at the
same time I am not willing to compromise my boldness and love for my Father. I
had someone tell me I Praise God too much(this person was a Christian) I study
too much I pray too much. Oh well, God knows the road He wants me to go
down.He has blessed me and my family mightily!!! I wouldnt change being
obedient and loving my Lord for anything!!! Keep praying and he will give you
the desires of your heart and what you need!He is faithful and will make the
crooked paths straight. I know He has mine. In Him!!
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#31) Re: Anyone deal with this brand of exclusion?
AUTHOR: Katie in VA
DATE: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 4:43 p.m.
Reply To: (#28) Anyone deal with this brand of exclusion?
Author: Kimmer
Date: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 11:34 a.m.
Kimmer,
You put a spotlight on a tough issue. I am spiritually confused, which is
quite embarrassing, but nonetheless my current condition. I'm afraid
Christians will find me lacking in faith and suggest scripture (of which I've
already read plenty) and yet I don't want to be in a group where people are
put off by any mention of God. I appreciate all kinds of people and enjoy
learning about people's beliefs. But I don't want to judge or be judged. That
is why I'm starting my own group. And if anyone is critical or judgemental,
they won't be welcome. I don't want to have to walk on egg shells all the
time. You don't have to be alone. It's okay to be a pioneer!! Good luck.
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#32) THIS IS AWFUL! :-(
AUTHOR: Giovanna
DATE: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 6:11 p.m.
Reply To: (#28) Anyone deal with this brand of exclusion?
Author: Kimmer
Date: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 11:34 a.m.
: I'm more than happy to make friends from all
: walks. I am neither dissuaded nor threatened
: by people's faiths or lack thereof. But, I
: find I'm either looked down on or pose a
: threat just because of my life and beliefs,
: depending on the group at hand.
: Any ideas on how to deal with this? Or should I
: just plan on having a solitary life...I
: always figured I was an only child for good
: reason!
I think you are already handling it quite well!
You are open to make friendships, you do not sound like you have a judgemental
and criticizing heart. Well,goodness, you sound like you are trying to imitate
someone we both know. ;-) Are you "doomed" to a solitary life? NO WAY!
While I am saddened at the condition of human kind, (believe me, it is not
just those that call themselves "Christians" that tend to exclude others not
quite like themselves--this is just a trait and reaction of all humans no
matter what they believe in), I know YOU can make a difference.
Kimmer,you need to start a group of your own. You sound quite secure in
yourself. Open a group that truly accepts others with open arms. YOU be the
example!
Let me tell you why your story touched my heart. I met a dear mom two years
ago. Just last year she had her ninth child and yes... she only wears dresses
and I believe she always has her hair up.
Me? I have two children and I wear shorts! He he he he! However, we both share
so much in common because of God. We both love him! This dear lady has taught
me so much and I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE her company. So we don't don't see
everything eye to eye... SO WHAT??? Everytime I spend time with this woman I
just walk away totally enriched. To think that someone might reject her
because of the principles she lives her life by makes me CRY! She is such a
dear woman!
Kimmer, I mean it! You have much to give. Don't give up. I know there are
people out there who would love your company. Start your own group!
Giovanna
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#33) Good for you!
AUTHOR: Giovanna
DATE: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 6:20 p.m.
Reply To: (#31) Re: Anyone deal with this brand of exclusion?
Author: Katie in VA
Date: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 4:43 p.m.
: I
: appreciate all kinds of people and enjoy
: learning about people's beliefs. But I don't
: want to judge or be judged. That is why I'm
: starting my own group. And if anyone is
: critical or judgemental, they won't be
: welcome. I don't want to have to walk on egg
: shells all the time. You don't have to be
: alone. It's okay to be a pioneer!! Good
: luck.
This is so uplifting to read.
I think it's all about making a difference and sharing love with others,
regardless of who they are! WAY TO GO! I wish you tons of success. Giovanna
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#35) Re: Anyone deal with this brand of exclusion?
AUTHOR: Liz
DATE: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 6:40 p.m.
Reply To: (#28) Anyone deal with this brand of exclusion?
Author: Kimmer
Date: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 11:34 a.m.
: Hello!
Kimmer, I can understand what you are going through. Because our group is very
large (almost 300 families) there are fewer judgments and much diversity in
our personal kinds of Christian attitudes. ie. dress etc. Most of us are
conservative dressers, but we do not exclude pants. A few wear only dresses .
.. . that's not a problem with anyone I know, and our children attend home
school band on the campus of a Christian school which disallows the girls to
wear anything except longer length skirts. No one seems to be bothered by
that, either. Our group is somewhat exclusive when we are having group
functions, but I, personally, have home school friends from other groups as
well. One volunteer day at the VA Hospital, which I organized, was made up of
homeschoolers from a variety of support organizaitons. It was organized by me
and was not a support group function, so I figured I could ask whom so ever I
pleased to participate. It's such a shame that we waste time on such trivial
matters, but many do. I can't imagine anyone excluding any other person
because of their conservative dress. Now if you came to meetings each month in
a bellydancing costume or something . . . well . .. maybe I would stand back
and "cautiously" get to know you. Hang in there. There are some good people
out there. Come to SC and join our group. We'll appreciate you properly. Liz
in SC
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#37) just a thought
AUTHOR: dawne
DATE: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 10:09 p.m.
Reply To: (#9) I'm not having fun yet! (long)
Author: Katie in VA
Date: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 9:35 p.m.
Katie, Here is a thought. Part of getting together your own group is getting
the word out. Do you know that you can get a free Onelist from Onelist.com on
ANY subject you desire? We have one about local hs events and issues. You
could create on for your area of YOUR state. YOU set the rules. #1 Play NICE
#2 Support and Encourage - NO FLAMES. I bet many people would join it. Dawne
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#39) Re: Anyone deal with this brand of exclusion?
AUTHOR: Annette
DATE: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 10:43 p.m.
Reply To: (#28) Anyone deal with this brand of exclusion?
Author: Kimmer
Date: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 11:34 a.m.
:I have dealt with exclusion but on the other side of the coin. I wonder why
home schooling groups seem to be so judgmental. I truly don't get it and I
hate it. I have so many people whom I truly love their fellowship but they are
a part of this group or that group and I am over here in my own little
space..life is busy and it is very difficult to keep in touch with every
single person who I am not in contact with through either our church or our
support group. Plus when I try they kind of act like they don't get it, like
why would I want to get together. Heelllooooo, its called being friends. I
think there is a lot of pride in the home school movement...no flaming
please....but I have witnessed it so much (and been guilty of it too) and it
is a real killer. The only answer I can come up with is to stand strong with
who God has made each of us....but always walk in love and understanding with
others. Accpetance is crucial to living breathing relationships. God does not
ask us to clean up, become a certain way, think a certain way, dress or talk a
certain way, before we can come to Him. We all should model the same kindness
and patience to those around us.
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#41) Wow, Giovanna -- I think we hit a nerve! :)
AUTHOR: Cerelle
DATE: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 10:23 a.m.
I had a feeling this would be a popular topic, and sure enough -- we all seem
to have our stories of exclusion to tell.
I am fortunate enough to be a member of a large, inclusive homeschooling
support group. Don't let anyone convince you that a community like this is
impossible -- or even impractical. It's quite possible and quite wonderful!
This year, we have 121 families in our organization -- 121 families of
different faiths, different philosophies, different numbers of children,
different economic backgrounds, and different educational backgrounds. Some of
us are highly structured school-at-home types, and some of us have brought
unschooling to a new level of relaxation, LOL! We have both shy people and
pushy people, enthusiastic types and nay-sayers, rural back-to-the-landers and
urban go-getters, strict and permissive parents -- the full spectrum, folks.
It CAN be done, and I think we all get along astonishingly well.
On the other hand, I survived for many years without a formal support group,
and that wasn't so bad, either. I happen to live in a rural area of Texas in
which homeschooling has been fairly common for over a decade. Even when we
began homeschooling, over 14 years ago, there was already a homeschooling
group out here -- but, as I soon learned, it was closed to anyone who didn't
belong to certain kind of Christian faith. Let me say right now that I think
exclusive groups have a right to exist. I may not agree with the social
principle behind them, but you'll never catch me saying there shouldn't be any
exclusive groups. In a free society, people have a right to seek out others
like themselves and to club together.
Unfortunately, exclusivity does tend to perpetuate itself. Not long after I
started homeschooling, a couple of friends and I started our own support
group. Guess what -- it was for "secular homeschoolers." Having been excluded
from the existing groups, we figured we'd start our own group for people like
us. It didn't even occur to me, at that time, that we might be leaving people
out. (Actually, we had a few church-going Christians in our group, but
religion was not their reason for homeschooling.)
The seed of divisiveness, however, had been sown. Our group eventually split
along economic and parenting philosophy fault-lines. The attitude that fueled
the gradual breaking down of this group's cohesiveness was simply that old "us
vs. them" mindset. I think an awful lot of us learned it in high school at the
Friday afternoon pep rallies, you know? Go Cougars! Beat the Tigers! Rip 'em
up! Spit out the pieces! (As adults, what are we supposed to DO with that
social legacy?)
So...I went several years without a homeschooling group. It was OK. I still
had a lot of friends who homeschooled. Most of them were very religious, and
that was OK, too. We liked each other, our kids played well together, and we
were there to cheer each other on during hard times, one on one.
By the time the inclusive group I belong to now got around to forming (about 7
years ago), I didn't think I needed a group to support my homeschooling
endeavors, and my prior experiences had left a bad taste in my mouth, frankly.
So it wasn't until a couple of years ago that I finally caved and joined, and
I told myself I was doing it just to help my youngest meet some other kids his
age. The surprise is that it's been fun for me, too!
Keeping an inclusive group on track has its challenges. Members sometimes have
to remind themselves (or be reminded) to respect others' sensitivities while
trying not to let their own feathers get rumpled out of shape. Many of us,
however, are strongly committed to the ideals of an inclusive group because
we've been kept out (or thrown out) of other groups in the past.
Size, of course, is as big an issue as heterogeneity. The bigger a group gets,
the more unwieldy it becomes, the more rules it must make to govern itself,
and the more diversity it has to accommodate. But the alternative to growth is
closure, which is antithetical to the inclusivity rule. What happens, of
course, is that smaller subgroups form spontaneously within the larger group,
and I think that's fine. That's what happens anywhere in any community.
Special-interest groups start up -- a gardening club here, a chess club there,
a pre-school playgroup over yonder -- and those kids and moms create special
bonds.
>From time to time, bad things happen. A new member joins, attends an event or
two, and goes home with hurt feelings because no one talked to her. We work
hard to keep this kind of thing from happening, but happen it will. As we're
often reminded, shyness is not just a new-member phenomenon. A lot of us
oldtimers are shy, too! Marching up to a stranger and initiating conversation
is difficult for a lot of folks, young and old.
Well, I've rattled on long enough. I am enjoying SO MUCH reading everyone's
thoughts on this topic. And we only started the conversation 2 days ago! I
think this will make a wonderful digest. Keep talking!
Cerelle
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#43) GO KATIE!
AUTHOR: Cerelle
DATE: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 10:47 a.m.
Reply To: (#23) I took the plunge!
Author: Katie in VA
Date: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 10:00 a.m.
I love it! I predict giant success for your new group.
Now, be polishing up your referee skills, because you're going to need them,
and don't be disheartened the first time (or the 50th time) the membership
gets fractious on you. People are people. They get their feelings hurt, they
get mad, they point and accuse. But these things happen in any group,
inclusive OR exclusive, and it's up to the leadership to calm everyone down
and get the group back on track. Kinda like raising a family of kids! :-D
I'm wishing you tons of happiness with your new project!
Cerelle
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#44) That shyness thing...:-)
AUTHOR: Kimmer
DATE: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 1:17 p.m.
Reply To: (#41) Wow, Giovanna -- I think we hit a nerve! :)
Author: Cerelle
Date: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 10:23 a.m.
Hi, Cerelle!
This was a very encouraging testimony. We will be moving within the next year,
so perhaps I'll finally find a "belonging place", too. :-)
Your mentioning the shyness stuff made me chuckle. I used to be awful about
that. Rejection just couldn't be tolerated! Here's what I do now and maybe it
can encourage someone else who might have been known better for how fast they
could disappear than anything. :-)
In social situations now, whether church or groups or the park or an owner-run
store, I'm usually the aggressor. I look around, find something noteworthy
about someone or a landmark they've noticed also or whatever. I seek someone
who's not looking like they're exactly being socially inundated and walk up
and ask a question or make a nice comment that gets them talking. Through
asking questions and making mental notes of what they seem to come back to, I
find their "hot button" and the conversation takes off on its own. Works most
of the time and if it doesn't, I just pass politely on to the next
conversation! I made two of my dearest friends because I was willing to get my
feelings trampled.
I now understand that a vast number of people are lonely and scared of
rejection...just like me. I see that if I don't reach out, no one else is too
likely to, either...and we all lose as a result.
So, it's become a sport--how many people can I make feel good while I'm here?
:-) How many smiles can I pass out, how many rebuffs can I field
gracefully--and they do happen because I'm so weird! :-) I get a lot of
"you're not from around here, are you?"
However if I'm rejected now, I yell in my mind... "NEXT!" and get to it! Life
is good. :-)
Thanks for the topic!
Kimmer :-)
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#49) Awful in one way, great in another...
AUTHOR: Kimmer
DATE: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 10:12 p.m.
Reply To: (#32) THIS IS AWFUL! :-(
Author: Giovanna
Date: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 6:11 p.m.
Hi!
: I think you are already handling it quite well!
Thank you! :-) It's been a depressing winter and I really appreciate the extra
boost.
: You are open to make friendships, you do not
: sound like you have a judgemental and
: criticizing heart.
I used to...boy, yes. But, that same Someone you mentioned just happened to
give me a real big lesson in recent years and it stuck fast.
: Kimmer,you need to start a group of your own.
: You sound quite secure in yourself. Open a
: group that truly accepts others with open
: arms. YOU be the example!
This is wonderful, but not possible right exactly now. Location, timing and so
forth. I'm in the middle of a cow field area, we're moving in a few
months...however, I will remember what you've said! Yes, indeed, I will...
And secure? In some ways, but a mess in others right now. Call it personal
growth. :-) I happen to enjoy the same lovely woman's ministry you do, if I
recall...Howshall ring any bells? :-) If so, you understand.
: Let me tell you why your story touched my
: heart.
And yours touched mine. This is what it's all about for me.
And this is why while my thing is awful in one way, it's great in another. The
solitude is deafening at times, but from the distance, I can see more clearly
the garbage spewing out of various groups and subsets of the HS
movement...secular, believing or otherwise. I can see the garbage I need to
get rid of right here in myself.
When time comes, I'll be more mature and prepared to be a truly inclusive
person in all respects, without compromising my own deep convictions in any
way. I'm making steps, but am not ready to be released on a large scale.
Bless your day!
Kimmer :-)
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#52) Exciting update!
AUTHOR: Katie in VA
DATE: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 10:43 p.m.
Once again, thank you to everyone who is participating in this discussion!!! I
made an announcement about starting a new group on a bunch of local boards
last night. Today, I have five families who have signed up to attend the first
meeting!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I'm sure there will be more. I think I'm really going
to like this homeschooling thing!! Bless you all! Katie in VA
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#53) Mentors
AUTHOR: Giovanna
DATE: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 11:43 p.m.
Reply To: (#49) Awful in one way, great in another...
Author: Kimmer
Date: Wednesday, 2 February 2000, at 10:12 p.m.
: I used to...boy, yes. But, that same Someone
: you mentioned just happened to give me a
: real big lesson in recent years and it stuck
: fast.
HA! I know all about those "lessons". They can be painful but boy... life
changing in a great way!
: And secure? In some ways, but a mess in others
: right now. Call it personal growth. :-) I
: happen to enjoy the same lovely woman's
: ministry you do, if I recall...Howshall ring
: any bells? :-) If so, you understand.
Yes I understand! TOTALLY! I consider Marilyn Howshall my "mentor" even though
I've never really met her. Her books really inspired me to look at things
differently and to look at the whole "socialization" issue in a totally
different way.
: The solitude is
: deafening at times, but from the distance, I
: can see more clearly the garbage spewing out
: of various groups and subsets of the HS
: movement...secular, believing or otherwise.
: I can see the garbage I need to get rid of
: right here in myself.
Solitude can be a good thing... for a season anyway. Everything has it's
season you know. While sometimes I find myself wanting to be alone to
understand some things, other times I need to be with others to understand.
So what am I saying here? I don't know!!! LOL! Nothing I guess except that I
understand you very well! :-)
Giovanna
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#55) Happens here all the time
AUTHOR: Kim T.
DATE: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 8:43 p.m.
Reply To: (#8) Ok... This MAY have to do with "socialization"...
Author: Giovanna
Date: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 9:31 p.m.
I know exactly what your talking about. I have three boys ages 13, 9 and 8.
All are unaware of their surroundings and others in it. Just today one son
darts in front of a man crossing the aisle with his cart and another son
scolds son #1 about not being aware of his surroundings all while he backs
into an elderly lady with a freezer door open. Anyone see a hole I can crawl
into? When I speak to them about personal space and being aware of what's
around them it just seems to baffle them. But they are so eager to point it
out in others. Go figure...
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#56) Just an idea
AUTHOR: amy
DATE: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 9:15 p.m.
Reply To: (#9) I'm not having fun yet! (long)
Author: Katie in VA
Date: Monday, 31 January 2000, at 9:35 p.m.
Maybe one way to find some of those that the "full" group is excluding is to
ask them! Perhaps since they have reached their group limit, they would be
willing to give your number to other homeschoolers who call whom they are
unable (unwilling?) to accomodate. Good luck and hang in there! Amy in MA
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#58) totally relate
AUTHOR: stoney
DATE: Thursday, 3 February 2000, at 10:06 p.m.
Reply To: (#28) Anyone deal with this brand of exclusion?
Author: Kimmer
Date: Tuesday, 1 February 2000, at 11:34 a.m.
I tried to get involved with an "inclusive" group and enjoyed it, but ran into
a few problems.
I want to be inclusive and open to different people, and I think I am, but
I've come accross two kinds of homeschoolers in my area. 1) Christian (of many
varieties--not hard to find a comfortable group) and 2) radical unschoolers,
often with a pagan orientation (some hostile to Christians). I know there must
be others, but I have not met any.
With 5 kids (including twin one-year-olds) I don't have time to organize my
own group, but I find it hard to get very involved with the 2nd group, though
very nice people, because our friendships remain rather superficial.
I really don't have the answer.
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#60) Socialization Trap
AUTHOR: Nedra
DATE: Friday, 4 February 2000, at 6:32 p.m.
Hi, I am curious if anyone has read The Socialization Trap by Boyer. I don't
agree with everything he wrote but it is very encouraging for hsers. God
bless, Nedra
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#61) no, what did it say in a nutshell?? nt
AUTHOR: dawne
DATE: Friday, 4 February 2000, at 10:43 p.m.
Reply To: (#60) Socialization Trap
Author: Nedra
Date: Friday, 4 February 2000, at 6:32 p.m.
: Hi,
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#62) New Breed of Home Schoolers
AUTHOR: Liz
DATE: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 7:12 a.m.
One of the "social" problems I have noticed in the past year or so is the
behavior and attitude of the new homeschoolers and their parents who are now
coming into our support group. As I mentioned, our group is large (about 300
families) and quite active. We have home school bowling day, roller skating
day, regular use of the public libraries for activities etc. As our group
grows, there seems to be more members who drop off their kids and leave the
group to deal with behavioral problems which we have never before exprienced.
Because we don't want to discourage others from homeschooling, it a problem
with which we are agonizing. Have any of you noticed a different attitude
among new home schoolers or different behavior among some of the more recent
home schooled children? This is a difficult thing to verbalize because I don't
want to sound exclusive or judgmental, but there is a change and we (our
group) are not as welcome out in the community as we once were. At first I
thought it was our "regulars" just growing up, but they aren't the problems.
These problems are coming directly from the new people. Anyone else out there
noticed this kind of problem? Liz in SC
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#63) Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers
AUTHOR: Mary
DATE: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 7:48 a.m.
Reply To: (#62) New Breed of Home Schoolers
Author: Liz
Date: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 7:12 a.m.
Actually, Yes, I have noticed that! We were just talking about that at our
swim and gym class!! The kids who are the worst behaved are the ones whos moms
drop them off. Or go to another part of the building to chat!And if you try to
bring it to their attention ..Oh My!!! Their kids never do anything
wrong(sounds like stuff i heard from ps parents when i was teaching!) Hmmmm,
anyone else notice or have any ideas how to deal with it?
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#64) Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers
AUTHOR: Debbie G.
DATE: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 8:50 a.m.
Reply To: (#62) New Breed of Home Schoolers
Author: Liz
Date: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 7:12 a.m.
I belong to an exclusive homeschool group and one of the reason I prefer this
group is that we have policies stated right up front prior to joining. We are
a religious group so the basic belief of the group is all written up and
members sign that they are of like belief. Because we are exclusive we are
able to deal with this problem of unruly/unsupervised children. We also have a
policy stating that no children are EVER to be dropped off. All children must
be supervised by their parent at all times. Even field trips which are
coordinated within the group must have all parents in attendance. If for some
reason you can not attend and a friend has agreed to take your child, then it
is clear that that child is supervised by someone -- not dropped off.
Behaviour guidelines are listed on the sheet and members can be asked to leave
an event or just asked to reign in their child if needed. I have personally
never seen an instance where this was used. However, prior the policy,
apparently there were some problems in the community and now we are beginning
to build back our good name, so to speak.
I realize that being exclusive does have some drawbacks, but I actually prefer
it partly for the behaviour issues. We do have a co-op that we attend that is
Christian based, but not exclusive, and they still require that a parent be at
the co-op usually helping somewhere. Children are not dropped off here either.
Perhaps the answer is not becoming exclusive, but having some policy
guidelines for members regarding parent involvement at activities.
DEB
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#65) Yes, I've seen this too.
AUTHOR: Lee
DATE: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 8:51 a.m.
Reply To: (#63) Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers
Author: Mary
Date: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 7:48 a.m.
We went on a field trip with one group and it was embarrassing the way the
children AND the moms behaved. A couple of the mothers kept up a steady
conversation the whole time the guide was talking and their kids were noisy
and rude. We once belonged to a group who had a good way of preventing this
kind of thing. It was written out in the group's "handbook" and also made
clear to newcomers that no children were to be dropped off at classes, field
trips, etc. A parent had to be in attendance also unless prior arrangements
were made with another parent to be "officially" in charge of your kids.
Another thing that could be done is a short class on manners.
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#66) parents in general
AUTHOR: Nedra
DATE: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 8:58 a.m.
Reply To: (#62) New Breed of Home Schoolers
Author: Liz
Date: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 7:12 a.m.
Hi,
This is one of my pet peeves in general, not confined to hsing. I swear some
parents pay more attention to their cars and dogs than they do to their kids.
For example, our church had a day camp for one week from 9 to 3. It was free.
People came from all over and asked no questions. We did have qualified staff
to run the program, that isn't what I mean. But I would love to call some of
these people and ask them a simple question. Would they leave their wallet
with all their money and credit cards everytime they left their child. What if
the deal was they could not check if everything remained in their wallet until
9pm Friday night. Do you think they would be comfortable with strangers having
access to their VISA card? So which is more important?
So I think your seeing a general parenting issue spilling over into hsing.
Veteran hsers want to spend time with their kids and don't have any
disallusions about their behavior. They want to be there to monitor and guide
their kids. God bless, Nedra
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#67) family life
AUTHOR: Nedra
DATE: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 9:03 a.m.
Reply To: (#61) no, what did it say in a nutshell?? nt
Author: dawne
Date: Friday, 4 February 2000, at 10:43 p.m.
Hi,
He says that family life and interaction with the world is proper
socialization for kids. They learn how to interact with parents, siblings,
neighbors, people at the post office, etc. He says we shouldn't try to follow
ps example of big group field trips and classes. He doesn't say that those
things are bad but that we shouldn't beat ourselves up trying to do it all and
be just like ps. God bless, Nedra
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#68) Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers
AUTHOR: Giovanna
DATE: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 10:12 a.m.
Reply To: (#64) Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers
Author: Debbie G.
Date: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 8:50 a.m.
: We also have a
: policy stating that no children are EVER to
: be dropped off. All children must be
: supervised by their parent at all times.
I think this is a great idea. This is the way it is in our support group and
to me, it is very important that it stays that way.
: I realize that being exclusive does have some
: drawbacks, but I actually prefer it partly
: for the behaviour issues.
Well, like you said further down on your post "exclusivity" is not the reason
WHY kids behave. But firm policies will really help with this issue.
Giovanna
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#69) Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers
AUTHOR: Michelle
DATE: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 11:46 a.m.
Reply To: (#62) New Breed of Home Schoolers
Author: Liz
Date: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 7:12 a.m.
Our group has written out policies also. No child is ever dropped off, dress
code, behavior code and each famiy signs a form to enter that they have read
it and they will abide in these codes. It has helped considerably. I do notice
a lot of the behaviors you described. Parents just don't feel like discipling
their children and it seems like they feel children are a burden to be dropped
off at any and every chance they get. I am also finding that many new
homeschooling families are not hsing for religious reasons, but because of
events in the public schools. These children have been in schools and the
parents are used to handing over their children with no questions asked and
think the leaders of the hs support groups will do the same. In our group we
let them know we are not babysitters. It is tough that we don't want to
discourage hsing, but don't want to be taken advantage of either.
Michelle
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#70) Re: Yes, I've seen this too.
AUTHOR: Liz
DATE: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 6:37 p.m.
Reply To: (#65) Yes, I've seen this too.
Author: Lee
Date: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 8:51 a.m.
: We have rules about dropping off etc. but a "Rules Handbook" may well be the
next step. I suppose, like when I taught, we should have the parents read it
and sign a form stating that they have done so and will abide by the said
rules. Liz in SC We went on a field trip with one group and it
: was embarrassing the way the children AND
: the moms behaved. A couple of the mothers
: kept up a steady conversation the whole time
: the guide was talking and their kids were
: noisy and rude. We once belonged to a group
: who had a good way of preventing this kind
: of thing. It was written out in the group's
: "handbook" and also made clear to
: newcomers that no children were to be
: dropped off at classes, field trips, etc. A
: parent had to be in attendance also unless
: prior arrangements were made with another
: parent to be "officially" in
: charge of your kids. Another thing that
: could be done is a short class on manners.
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#71) Let's not mix issues!
AUTHOR: Katie in VA
DATE: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 11:47 p.m.
Reply To: (#69) Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers
Author: Michelle
Date: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 11:46 a.m.
Hmmmmm.....Aren't there children being homeschooled for religious reasons that
have been in public schools at some point? Let's be careful not to mix issues.
I never handed over my son with no questions asked at the public school. I was
an involved parent then, and as a homeschooler of an LD child who was not
being served well in the public school, I'm involved now. It's true, some
parents seem thoughtless and selfish, but in addition to establishing rules
about not dropping children off, etc., perhaps the issue of overwhelmed
parents can be addressed in a compassionate way. If someone is dumping their
kids, maybe they need understanding and help, along with a firm request for
them to follow the rules. Tolerance and compassion can be given to people even
as they are corrected. It is really amazing how much people can change when
they are respectfully approached about an unwanted behavior and asked if they
have a problem you can help them with that keeps them from following the
rules.....
I am also finding that many new
: homeschooling families are not hsing for
: religious reasons, but because of events in
: the public schools. These children have been
: in schools and the parents are used to
: handing over their children with no
: questions asked and think the leaders of the
: hs support groups will do the same
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#72) Should I butt in?
AUTHOR: Lee
DATE: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 9:21 a.m.
Our area has a hs basketball team. Several of the ten to twelve year old girls
seem to have formed a clique, leaving out one girl. She sits all alone while
the rest of them are all clustered together. Would it be inappropriate for me
to speak to one or two of the girls or maybe one of their mothers? If I had a
daughter in the group, I'd speak to her but I feel reluctant to say anything
to other peoples' kids.
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#73) Re: Should I butt in?
AUTHOR: Annette
DATE: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 11:05 a.m.
Reply To: (#72) Should I butt in?
Author: Lee
Date: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 9:21 a.m.
:Are you the coach? If so yes, It definitely would be ok. A lesson in *team*
mentality is needed. If you are not the coach...then let the coach know what
you are noticing and hopefully he/she will do soemthing.
Our area has a hs basketball team. Several of
: the ten to twelve year old girls seem to
: have formed a clique, leaving out one girl.
: She sits all alone while the rest of them
: are all clustered together. Would it be
: inappropriate for me to speak to one or two
: of the girls or maybe one of their mothers?
: If I had a daughter in the group, I'd speak
: to her but I feel reluctant to say anything
: to other peoples' kids.
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#74) Yes....
AUTHOR: Katie in VA
DATE: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 1:25 p.m.
Reply To: (#73) Re: Should I butt in?
Author: Annette
Date: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 11:05 a.m.
I agree, the coach is the best person to address this problem. I admire you
for noticing the problem and having the inclination to do something about it.
If the coach is unwilling to help (or if the coach is not sensitive to how
delicate the situation is), perhaps you could approach one of the more
"approachable" parents and express concern about the isolated child. Being
slightly indirect can help that parent "save face." For example, ask the
parent, "I notice something that is nagging at me, and I'm wondering what
would you do if you saw a social problem regarding the team that needed to be
addressed?" That should gently open the door to discussing the actual problem.
Just a thought. Good luck!
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#75) Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers
AUTHOR: Suz
DATE: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 4:37 p.m.
Reply To: (#69) Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers
Author: Michelle
Date: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 11:46 a.m.
.. I am also finding that many new
: homeschooling families are not hsing for
: religious reasons, but because of events in
: the public schools.
I have read this several times, now, and this particular statement really
bothers me. I don't homeschool my children for religious reasons; I homeschool
them because the public schools could not provide them the educational
experiences and discipline that I can. I don't just drop them off and expect
somebody else to deal with them. Even before we withdrew from ps, I was at the
school regularly, I have been a Cub Scout Leader and worked with the youth
ministry at church for the very same reasons that I stayed home with my
children when they were young. They need me!
Sorry to go on so long, but I get very discouraged by the divisiveness of this
sort of discussion. We obviously have made our decisions to homeschool for
various reasons, but we all face the same challenges and threats to our
privacey vis a vis homeschooling.
The reason that you see more of this objectionable behavior in some
homeschooled kids is simply that there are more of them, and they are becoming
more visible. I think that this so-called "new breed" has less to do with that
phenomenon than some of you are willing to admit.
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#77) Considering HS but scared of the social isolation
AUTHOR: Michelle
DATE: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 4:47 p.m.
I've been planning to HS my daughter who is 5 1/2, beginning next fall. She
truly wants to and we're both excited, or I was until I found out some info
about our local HS group. We are not very active in church not because we
aren't religious but because my husband has concerns about what he sees as
hipocrisy in the church. My daughter is in gymnastics and music. She is shy
and introverted but is very gentle, kind and considerate with friends. We only
have 2 kids her age in the neighborhood. I was counting on the local HS group
to provide much socialization, they have a swimming, gym, arts and spanish
program. I have not visited with them yet, but have heard from 2 people who
tried to join that they exclude any people who are not of a certain
denomination or follow their code of "rules." I'm concerned if I kept my
daughter at home she may be too isolated. Any reassurance or opinions (even if
they're negative) would be appreciated. Also any tips on activites outside the
home for this age group that open up opportunities for friendship would help.
She doesn't seem to have much time for talking, socialization in Gym and
music. Thanks.
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#78) This is a good point
AUTHOR: Giovanna
DATE: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 4:48 p.m.
Reply To: (#75) Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers
Author: Suz
Date: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 4:37 p.m.
: The reason that you see more of this
: objectionable behavior in some homeschooled
: kids is simply that there are more of them,
: and they are becoming more visible.
Many, many, many people are deciding to homeschool for a variety of reasons.
So yes... there are a lot of us out there. We are from all walks of life so
the chances of meeting a homeschooler who isn't "quite like you" will
increase, I predict, in tremendous proportions in the next ten years.
And as far as unruly kids? Well, I'm telling you right now "homeschooling"
doesn't guarantee well behaved kids. Goodness I wish it was that easy! :-)
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#79) Giovanna, please let me know if you find that easy
AUTHOR: Suz
DATE: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 5:43 p.m.
Reply To: (#78) This is a good point
Author: Giovanna
Date: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 4:48 p.m.
: Many, many, many people are deciding to
: homeschool for a variety of reasons. So
: yes... there are a lot of us out there. We
: are from all walks of life so the chances of
: meeting a homeschooler who isn't "quite
: like you" will increase, I predict, in
: tremendous proportions in the next ten
: years.
: And as far as unruly kids? Well, I'm telling
: you right now "homeschooling"
: doesn't guarantee well behaved kids.
: Goodness I wish it was that easy! :-)
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#80) I *SO* agree
AUTHOR: Kristen AKA cur
DATE: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 5:48 p.m.
Reply To: (#75) Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers
Author: Suz
Date: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 4:37 p.m.
I have home schooled my kids basically from the start, and although I am a
Christian, I am home schooling more for social and academic reasons than
religious. Additionally, both of my sons have special needs, and their
behavior can be quite *challenging* at times, to say the least. Time and time
again we have been isolated and ostracized and ignored and avoided in social
groups, secular, inclusive and religious. My boys are not monsters, they are
sweet wonderful boys who are polite and gentle with babies and other children,
and respectful of their elders and who open doors for women. When we visit a
Sunday School at another church, the teachers are amazed at my boy's Bible
knowledge *and* Application. Sometimes one of them gets boisterous and goes
overboard with things, and sometimes the other one tunes the rest of us out
and is in his own little world, but in no way is either dangerous or hurtful
to anyone else. But I have been told that some people do not want their kids
to associate with mine because of their behavior. They are afraid that my boys
will somehow contaminate their children in some way. This is SO silly. When my
boys are acting in a less than desirable way, it *should* be an opportunity
for these folk to teach their kids about kindness and gentleness and
understanding other people's uniquness, not to shelter them away as if it was
contagious!
I think that it has less to do with a new breed of Home Schooler, and more to
do with a) there being more and more people attracted to home schooling and
many of them do not, and will not espouse the original home schoolers
ideology. The ideas become diluted so to speak with greater numbers of
participants. And b) (Not directing this at one one in particular) The pride
and/or fear of some people who feel that their way is the only right way, and
any one who does not cut it is to be avoided. Seems like no matter where you
go inthe world, you will find people who believe and act this way. This is SO
SAD!
Of course, parents dropping their kids off at home school events and not
supervising and rude, cliquish and other peer dependant behavior must be
corrected, but you can't control the heart with rules.
(stepping off my soap box)
==(*-*)== Kristen AKA curlywhirly
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#81) Re: This is a good point
AUTHOR: Cerelle
DATE: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 6:00 p.m.
Reply To: (#78) This is a good point
Author: Giovanna
Date: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 4:48 p.m.
: And as far as unruly kids? Well, I'm telling
: you right now "homeschooling"
: doesn't guarantee well behaved kids.
Yes, and this was as true 15 years ago as it is today. Also, in my experience,
a family's position on the spiritual continuum is not a predictor of the
children's behavior. Unruly children -- even troubled children -- can be found
in many different kinds of households, homeschooling or not, religious or not.
And of course, the reverse is true, too. It's wrong to make assumptions about
the behavior of public school kids, since there are so many wonderful,
high-achieving children out there who do attend public schools.
Cerelle
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#82) About the social skills of some adults...
AUTHOR: Cerelle
DATE: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 6:16 p.m.
Reply To: (#80) I *SO* agree
Author: Kristen AKA cur
Date: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 5:48 p.m.
: Time and time again
: we have been isolated and ostracized and
: ignored and avoided in social groups,
: secular, inclusive and religious.
And that's heartbreaking proof that many children have less than ideal social
role models in their lives. What a shame! As long as the adults can't figure
out how to get along together, how are the kids supposed to learn?
Kindness and compassion are always good places to start.
Cerelle
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#83) Re: I *SO* agree
AUTHOR: Giovanna
DATE: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 7:15 p.m.
Reply To: (#80) I *SO* agree
Author: Kristen AKA cur
Date: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 5:48 p.m.
: And b) (Not directing this at
: one one in particular) The pride and/or fear
: of some people who feel that their way is
: the only right way, and any one who does not
: cut it is to be avoided. Seems like no
: matter where you go inthe world, you will
: find people who believe and act this way.
: This is SO SAD!
I look at it two ways. Every parent has the right to choose what kind of
experiences and influences they want for their children. We ALL do that and
it's totally OK. It's part of the responsibility we have as parents.
However, I am of the belief (as a Christian) that I am to be a light unto the
world. The only way I know how to light "my world" is though love and
kindness.
Now mesh those two things I said and there is my answer. Not a clear cut
answer, I know, but life isn't always clear cut.
:-)
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#84) Once upon a time....
AUTHOR: Giovanna
DATE: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 7:50 p.m.
Reply To: (#79) Giovanna, please let me know if you find that easy
Author: Suz
Date: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 5:43 p.m.
I used to think that homeschooling was the "magic key" to raising the
"perfect" child.
HA!
I've grown a lot since then! :-)
Kids are childish! Let's not forget that. They are going to have their great
moments and their bad moments. Yes.... some have more "bad" moments than
"good" moments but there is soooo much that plays into that! To say that
homeschooling in itself will automatically make it disappear is totally
ignorant.
I think we've all been brainwashed by the cover of the homeschool magazine
that has the perfect family (dressed perfectly--the girls and the mom all have
matching dresses) and somehow we think we are all supposed to look like that.
What homeschooling DOES do is give parents a unique opportunity to REALLY get
to know their children and to spend more time with them than the average
parent.
Notice I said it gives the parent the "OPPORTUNITY" to do those things.
Just because you do schoolwork with your children doesn't mean you are having
any significant, quality time with them either. Relationship is absolutely
vital to raising children and in a good relationship much, much time has to be
invested, many conversations happen, much intimate time is spent and much
understanding happens and yes... discipline also happens.
I know personally of homeschooling parents that spend as much time with their
child as the average parent working outside the home does. Yes, they are at
home together but there isn't much happening there besides, "Johnny go get
your math book. It's time for math." And while I do not want to judge what
happens in any household I would have to wonder if this family also thinks
that just because you homeschool you will end up with "well behaved, perfect
children."
There is just way more to it than just that, you know?
Cerelle? Want to step in here? LOL!
Giovanna
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#85) Re: Considering HS but scared of the social isolat
AUTHOR: Annette
DATE: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 7:54 p.m.
Reply To: (#77) Considering HS but scared of the social isolation
Author: Michelle
Date: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 4:47 p.m.
Hi Michelle,
My 7 yo dd is also a gymnast. I understand your hesitancy about the support
group. My advice would be go and meet them all before you make any decisions.
You really need to see for yourself what is up in the group. If it doesn't
seem like the group for you...fine. You can move on, no hard feelings. Your dd
is still young enough to go to story hour at the library, park play times,
what about city sponsored classes like art, drama, or cooking? Start inviting
kids over to play. Oh and rollerskating is always fun too. Home schooling does
not equal isolation. It does take work if you are not involved in a group but
it can be done.
Blessings as you step out on this new journey.... Annette
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#86) Lots of thoughts, take what you need - ditch the r
AUTHOR: dawne
DATE: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 8:09 p.m.
Reply To: (#77) Considering HS but scared of the social isolation
Author: Michelle
Date: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 4:47 p.m.
Michelle, I'm the editor of our group's newsletter. We are in inclusive group,
btw.
As editor I talk to many people as they come into our group. I spoke with one
woman late last summer and she told me she doesn't drive on beltways or major
highways. I thought in my head "hmmm, gonna be a problem". At that time I
encouraged her to host activities in her own neighborhood. I"m not aware that
she ever did. I phoned her last week to touch base and she told me that her dd
was going back to school in the fall.
I can't say enough about forming activities on your own. If something appeals
to your daughter it is likely other kids would like it too.
The fact that this other group may turn ppl away is a whole other discussion.
I personally have had very many "not so positive" encounters with exclusive
groups. I wouldn't sign a statement of faith even if I agreed with the
doctrines b/c it is in direct conflict with my desire to be open and tolerant.
To respect and be respected. Many families do not take that philosophical
position. Assuming that you find a group you like let me suggest the
following.
Get to the meetings. Even if they are "boring" business type meetings try to
go. Afterwards there will likely be time to chat and network. Offer to host
the meeting in your home if your group works that way. That takes care of any
child care problems that may pop up trying to attend an evening meeting.
Sponser a meeting in the middle of the day. Chances are other families will be
glad you did!
In my 8 months as a hs mom I have arranged 2 field trips and attended several
more. I was one of 5 moms to start a writing club. I also set up a Spanish
class once a week. My son has joined Tiger Scouts [daytime hs pack] and a
music class offered by another mom. You can also set up a 4-H program that
covers animal science stuff and farming stuff. There is a unit on
multi-cultural studies too. I was impressed with that and also a unit based on
self expression through photography. Jane Goodall has a program too that you
could read about and maybe start in your hs group. www.janegoodall.org [Roots
and Shoots] My point is whatever you think you need or want can be created by
you and shared with the larger group. Bear in mind that your academic approach
influences how much time you have for activities. What I can say with
certainty is that YOU can create opportunities for your dd. At her age I would
set up a play date, in nice weather, at a local park. Put it in your
newsletter, email loop, or announce at a meeting that Every 1st and 3rd Monday
at ________ park a group is meeting to chat and network while supervising the
kids at the park.
Not everyone likes to do academic stuff in groups. We do. It works for us. You
may want to try it. Think of something you could offer like music or whatever
your gifts and skills are. [Personally when my son gets older I will host a
philosophy class] Keep your ear out for moms/dads who are offering things you
may not know about or may enjoy learning with your child. Several people in my
group offer chem. or bio. classes. When my son is older I'll take them up on
that b/c I've only had the minimum of required science classes.
I understand what you mean about not being able to socialize at gym class. The
purpose of that class is to learn gymnastics just as the purpose of our
writing club is to create and share. After writing club we go outside and use
the church's playground for about an hour. Because our group is geographically
diverse this is one way to not only get important things done but to also chat
and play twice a month. This might work well for you too. The kids are super
great in the writing club and generally pay attention. They know that play
time is coming and wait till then to run around, laugh and talk.
Local churches around here are great for lending us their spaces. City
libraries are free too. Once we had a science fair in a county library and had
to pay $30 for the day. Each family put in $2 - no problem. parks are great
for meetings over a picnic lunch. Don't forget that you'll need that social
interaction too.
There are probably resources in your own backyard that maybe you don't know of
yet. 2 museums in our city host activities [FREE too, if you can believe that]
for kids. We attend them every month. Our Historical Society offers great
programs reasonably priced. Groups of 10 or more can go to the Science Center
free. There are symphonies and plays during the day that are geared toward
school groups and priced at about $5 a child. We have tons of science stuff
around here too. Programs offered about bats, butterflies, animal tracks ...I
could go on and on. Keep your eyes open.
If you want to contact me via email feel free. I can describe some of this
better then if you're curious. Dawne
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#87) Re: Should I butt in?
AUTHOR: dawne
DATE: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 8:18 p.m.
Reply To: (#72) Should I butt in?
Author: Lee
Date: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 9:21 a.m.
I would say something for sure. I have had to do that before and I'm always
glad I did.
IF this behavior continues either on purpose or without intent then what you
have is a situation IDENTICAL to thousands of public schools across the
nation. Does anyone in your hs group want that??
I saw a lot of exclusion in my time in ps. I never minded being "outside of
the group" b/c I had my own group of friends. Frankly, in the jock culture
that STILL prevails at my old school I was thankful NOT to be picked on. Being
ignored was fine for me. THIS girl however may mind and have no real idea of
what to do.
You could say something to other girls in the group. I would definately bring
it to the attention of the coach/leader. S/he can mix it up in practice with
various activities and such.
You could also go to the mother of the excluded child. A nice tactful approach
may be "Jane, I haven't really gotten to know your daughter as much as I'd
like. She doesn't seem to mingle in the group as the others do. I'm sure she
has a lot to offer this group and wonder if I can help in anyway or if you've
considered talking with the coach."
Many would say this isn't your business but I say "hey! we're all in this
together". With these types of situations I do what I think I have to do to be
able to look at myself each morning. If people feel annoyed or upset they'll
get over it.
dawne
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#88) Re: Once upon a time....
AUTHOR: Cerelle
DATE: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 9:22 p.m.
Reply To: (#84) Once upon a time....
Author: Giovanna
Date: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 7:50 p.m.
One thing I've noticed is that homeschooling parents often have either a
mostly negative or a mostly positive motivation for what they're doing. Let me
explain...
Some people homeschool MAINLY because they love being with their children and
they think they can offer their kids a really neat environment in which to
grow and learn. To my way of thinking, these folks are on the positive end of
the spectrum.
Some people homeschool MAINLY because they distrust the schools and want to
keep their children away from negative influences (both social and academic).
I think of these as a negative reasons for homeschooling. They're not
necessarily bad reasons, and I think most of us feel this way to a lesser or
greater extent, but in order to make homeschooling a positive experience for
the whole family, you need more than an avoidance policy, more than something
you're trying to get away from.
I think we all need to have positive goals -- a destination we're travelling
*toward.*
This is true also of the general approach we take toward raising our children.
If my focus is only on making sure that my kids do NOT become monsters, I
can't effectively help them become heroes.
If I'm stuck in a negative homeschooling mindset, I might focus only on making
sure my children remain out of the public schools, whether or not they're
excited about learning or have a happy and trusting relationship with each
other and me.
And here's another thing. If I'm thinking mostly about how I DON'T want my
children to behave, I'll have my focus on their misbehavior. But if I have
some lofty goals of how I want my kids TO behave, I'll be looking for
indications that they're moving in that direction. I'll be more likely to
think positively about what I see in their developing characters.
Overall, I think it's really important to have grander goals than avoidance.
That way, I won't be satisfied just with raising kids who don't misbehave.
Instead, I'll be doing my level best to raise children who DO "behave" because
they WANT to do the right thing, because they are MOTIVATED to be good people
-- not out of fear of punishment, but out of love of goodness.
We can slide this philosophy back over to the educational topic by saying that
I want to educate my kids in such a way that they aren't just avoiding
ignorance but are actively pursuing a lifestyle of learning. This gives
everything a different slant (in my opinion). I won't be looking for
weaknesses to avoid. I'll be looking for strengths to encourage.
Somehow I feel I've used a lot of words here, but that someone else could
express what I'm trying to say much more efficiently. I don't have time to
edit this, but I hope you can find my meaning lurking somewhere in here. :Þ
Cerelle (feeling tongue-tied)
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#89) Re: Once upon a time....
AUTHOR: Giovanna
DATE: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 10:33 p.m.
Reply To: (#88) Re: Once upon a time....
Author: Cerelle
Date: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 9:22 p.m.
: Some people homeschool MAINLY because they
: distrust the schools and want to keep their
: children away from negative influences (both
: social and academic).
Believe it or not I began to homeschool for these reasons. Actually, back then
I didn't realize those were my reasons. I just had this knot in my stomach
about the whole school thing. And although I couldn't really verbalize back
then why I felt what I felt, "distrust" would have summed it up well.
Back then I knew of only two other people who were homeschooling and I had not
found the internet yet.
Now, however? It has nothing to do with distrust of anything. I am just simply
in love with my kids and I LOVE being with them. So I guess it is possible to
start out homeschooling because you are "avoiding" certain things and then
realize how wonderful this whole thing can be and embrace it and continue it
for how good it truly is!
: I think we all need to have positive goals -- a
: destination we're travelling *toward.*
Oh, oh! So true!
Parents have a wide range of goals for their children. There are parents that
care about nothing but producing "well behaved children" (children who won't
embarrass them if you want to get right down to it, that look good, act well
in front of public--it makes mom and dad look great). Others have this goal of
producing children who are "smart and succesful" (that makes mommy and daddy
look good as well as they probably passed down some great genes, makes them
proud--the kid just has to get into college and get a good job because that's
the ultimate goal of life and nothing else will do). Others strive to build
children with great self esteems. They are constantly trying out the latest in
pop psychology. Others just feel that parenting is about control. If they can
control their kids then they have done a good job.
If your child were asked "What Mom and Dad want for me is....?" How would
he/she answer it? Hmmm.....
I think we need to challenge ourselves and begin to ask ourselves why we are
doing what we are doing. Some of us might need to rework our goals (I know I
had to).
Homeschooling is more about parenting than it is about education if you want
to know the truth. It's about being with your child and helping him become all
he was meant to become. Yes, a textbook here and there might be needed along
the way but if you look at the whole scope of the thing it is really much more
about relationship than anything else.
In looking at it that way we might realize that OUR goals for our children
might in fact, be getting in the way!
Anyway, someone quick! Tie this in to socialization somehow so that this won't
get way out of topic! :-)
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#90) Socialization with "others" (relates to thread bel
AUTHOR: Suz
DATE: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 7:56 a.m.
Okay, Giovanna, I'm going to give this a shot:
One of the positive goals that I have for my family is that we learn to
appreciate others, even when they are VERY different from us. We live in a
world of great diversity, and it seems unnecessarily limiting to interact only
with those who hold the same opinions, values, beliefs and perspectives that
we do.
Homeschooling offers us the opportunity to explore those kinds of interactions
without having to adhere to someone else's (ie, the government's or church's
or political group's) agenda. Our children learn OUR values and beliefs, but
can also learn to judge the value of individuals beyond their inclusion in a
particular group.
Oh, AAARG! I'm having a really hard time expressing this idea, but I think
it's an important one. I hope at least some of this makes sense.
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#91) How to make inclusive group work
AUTHOR: Katie in VA
DATE: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 8:56 a.m.
Okay, everyone, the first meeting of an inclusive group I am starting is on
Thursday. I am very excited to have the opportunity to create a social
experience for my son and I! I don't want to offend anyone, but I want true
tolerance and respect in the group, and a willingness to welcome newcomers
despite the change in group dynamics that will inevitably occur each time a
new family joins the group. I don't want the us and them mentality. Because I
am forming the group, I feel I do have some right to define the group. What
would be a good opening? Should I write the group statement of purpose before
the first meeting? Because I have 9 families already signed up to come, I'm
concerned that trying to give everyone input will lead down a difficult path.
Making decisions by committee can be a pain! And if it starts out too
democratic, it may quickly become a group that doesn't suit my particular
needs! Finally, anyone have an idea of a good "ice breaker"? I want to start
with something that might bring a few laughs. I was considering a game to
remember everyone's names, like, "I'm going to Timbuktu and I'm bringing
Carol...I'm going to Timbuktu and I'm bringing Carol, Martha...and so on. Any
ideas????? Sorry to be so chatty......TIA !!!! Katie
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#92) Good job, Suz!
AUTHOR: Cerelle
DATE: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 9:00 a.m.
Reply To: (#90) Socialization with "others" (relates to thread bel
Author: Suz
Date: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 7:56 a.m.
I think you brought Giovanna and me back around to our topic. LOL!
I love what you said, too.
It goes counter to what most people believe about homeschooling, but I really
believe my kids have been able to have much MORE diversity in their
friendships than they're likely to have had in school. Since they have time to
do more things in the community than a lot of kids do, they've gotten to know
kids from every school and every neighborhood in the large city near us. If
they'd been going to public school all this time, their circle of
acquaintances would have been limited to the mostly white, upper middle class,
suburban/rural population that feeds into our local school district.
I especially love this sentence you wrote:
"We live in a world of great diversity, and it seems unnecessarily limiting to
interact only with those who hold the same opinions, values, beliefs and
perspectives that we do."
Applause, applause! I feel confident that my children will keep the values
which continue to ring true for them. If they end up discarding some of the
opinions I hold dear, well . . . that's life. After all, life is change! For
me, one of the greatest joys and most fascinating parts of parenthood has been
watching my children become themselves, and it wouldn't be half as interesting
if they turned out to be exactly like my husband and me.
At the same time, they haven't had to go through the social stresses that pull
a lot of families apart these days. Although they have lots of friends outside
the family, the "peer group" that remains the most important to them is made
up of their parents and siblings.
Cerelle
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#93) Woo hoo! Look at you go!
AUTHOR: Cerelle
DATE: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 9:20 a.m.
Reply To: (#91) How to make inclusive group work
Author: Katie in VA
Date: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 8:56 a.m.
Katie, the inclusive homeschooling group I belong to (the one that now numbers
over 120 families) was formed about 7 years ago by two women who were
dissatisfied with the exclusive group they belonged to. They did exactly what
you're doing, and yes, they did compose a mission statement -- just to make
sure things stayed on track.
Our group has a governing board with officers who are "elected" every year. (I
put elected in quotes, because the challenge is in finding enough volunteers
to fill the positions every year. It's not often that we have two people who
want the same position badly enough to run against each other for it.) It's
the governing board's to keep the group's policies faithful to the original
vision (i.e., inclusive). There have been times in the group's history when
"majority rule" almost got in the way of its inclusiveness, so that is
something to be aware of and try to guard against.
I think you have the right, at this point, to determine the path your new
group will try to follow. After all, this WAS your idea! It's kind of like the
free-form softball games we used to host in our pasture. After a few years of
coaching the community softball teams our daughter played on, my husband
wanted a different kind of sports experience for our kids, so we mowed the
pasture and started inviting all the families we knew to come play softball on
one evening a week in the summer. But the rule was that the parents couldn't
try to coach the kids. They could play, if they wanted to, but this wasn't a
coaching opportunity. My husband felt he had the right to make that clear to
everyone on the front end, because it was his *vision* for how he wanted this
to be.
So yes -- sometimes the person with the vision gets to call the shots. At
least for a while! :)
Cerelle
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#94) Re: How to make inclusive group work
AUTHOR: dawne
DATE: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 9:36 a.m.
Reply To: (#91) How to make inclusive group work
Author: Katie in VA
Date: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 8:56 a.m.
Katie, I realize you are doing the work here so you do deserve a fair share of
decision making opportunities. I think defining the group is just fine
but...would caution you to get input from the others.
Once, non hs, a person had created a group and then wouldn't receive feedback
or ideas. She had her idea of what to do, how to do it and when. That group
fell apart when several of us left. I think she fell into the mentality that
it was "her" group.
If you want an icebreaker that isn't too serious I suggest making a large
bingo like sheet with 4 boxes across and 4 or 5 down. In each square put stuff
like "doesn't like pizza", "has a pet". Each family can do one sheet together
if the kids do not read and write well yet. When you find someone who meets
that phrase you put their name in the box. Its amazing how later on after
"business" is done little conversations erupt over what was discovered in the
exercise :-)
Let us know how the meeting goes. Dawne
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#95) Re: Good job, Suz!
AUTHOR: Suz
DATE: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 1:26 p.m.
Reply To: (#92) Good job, Suz!
Author: Cerelle
Date: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 9:00 a.m.
Thanks for the kind words of praise, Cerelle. I'm sitting here blushing and
proud.
For me, one of the greatest joys and
: most fascinating parts of parenthood has
: been watching my children become themselves,
: and it wouldn't be half as interesting if
: they turned out to be exactly like my
: husband and me.
For me one of the most fascinating parts of parenthood has been watching
myself become very much the woman my mother was when she was raising us! And
this is despite the solemn vows I made to myself to be different. LOL! Maybe
your children will be a lot like you and your husband, and maybe that's a GOOD
thing!
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#96) Re: Good job, Suz!
AUTHOR: Annette
DATE: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 2:53 p.m.
Reply To: (#92) Good job, Suz!
Author: Cerelle
Date: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 9:00 a.m.
:
:
:
: ***Applause, applause! I feel confident that my
: children will keep the values which continue
: to ring true for them.***
And that is all we can ask, don't you think? The values that ring true for
*them.*
***If they end up
: discarding some of the opinions I hold dear,
: well . . . that's life. After all, life is
: change!***
I love this perspective...first of all think of what life would be like if no
one ever modified their opinions over the years. If the children of the
parents didn't say to themselves, "This is good but I think for me this works
a little better." People would still in bondage to slavery is someone's son or
daughter hadn't at some point said, "This doesn't work for me." Also if a
conviction or opinion isn't truly coming from our child's own heart than what
good is it? It is a facade of who they really are.
****For me, one of the greatest joys and
: most fascinating parts of parenthood has
: been watching my children become themselves,
: and it wouldn't be half as interesting if
: they turned out to be exactly like my
: husband and me.****
YES! There are parts to my children that dh and I just look at each other and
wonder where did that come from? We admire them so much for their
individuality.
****At the same time, they haven't had to go
: through the social stresses that pull a lot
: of families apart these days. Although they
: have lots of friends outside the family, the
: "peer group" that remains the most
: important to them is made up of their
: parents and siblings.****
You know with our oldest son in ps this year (very first time ever..8th grade)
this was something (peer dependence) I worried about and at first with the
newness of the situation it did rear its head....he was enthralled with his
friends. He went and immediately was very popular, crowned king at the winter
dance and all. I don't mean to be bragging. It is just him. He is super
extroverted and his whole life has made friends easily...totally nothing we
have done. But anyway, he had to work his way through that, find out what
would work, and it was a hard process for me to watch. I tried to stay out of
the way though. I listened a lot and gently shared my thoughts...but always in
a take it or leave it manner. However, I am happy to say that he did indeed
find his way and is back to hugging me and kissing me good bye in the
mornings, telling me he loves me while his friends stand by waiting in full
view. He is back to his old self. I am probably most proud of him for this
very thing....he ventured out but made a lot of right choices...and they are
coming from his heart, not just a set of rules and because we said so. Annette
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#97) The importance of seeing people and not categories
AUTHOR: Kimmer
DATE: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 4:53 p.m.
Hi!
Had another thought today as I was reading these great posts. It's about the
importance of seeing human beings for what they are, and not making instant
assumptions of their worth based on the belief system they're in or the groups
they support.
As I had shared in one of my posts below, it's become very important to me to
reach out in kindness to everyone, no matter how they look or how popular they
are or what religion they are. It is not always returned in kind, but who
cares? :-)
My lesson was learned a while back, through hearing of a tragic situation. A
woman was a new member of a religious faith and had joined a HS group hoping
to make friends. Alas, she was rejected, rebuked, shoved aside. Her children
were excluded. Why? Because she hadn't reached the supposed "level" of the
rest of the members. As a result, she has not only left the group, she left
her faith because of all the hypocrites she was plunged into! Agh!
I had to take a hard look inward to see if I could have been one of those
guilty people. And at that time, yes...I could have been. It's been a very
changing thing for me.
Now I try to just see the person standing in front of me and not the "stuff"
surrounding them. True, their "stuff" affects who they are, but does it make
them somehow less worthy of my time? No, not if I judge them individually,
based on what is said and done to me personally, versus looking at whatever
stereotypes that are attached to the life-systems they dwell in.
Hope this makes sense to someone else! :-) It's really been an important part
of my personal growth and I thought it would be appropriate to share here for
others' perusal.
Take care,
Kimmer :-)
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#98) Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers
AUTHOR: Michelle
DATE: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 5:09 p.m.
Reply To: (#69) Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers
Author: Michelle
Date: Saturday, 5 February 2000, at 11:46 a.m.
I sincerely apoligize if my post offended anyone. It was not my intent. (Can I
plead impaired judgement due to flu?) Kristen actually put what I wanted to
say in the correct words. Not that people are or are not homeschooling for
religious reasons, but are not homeschooling for the same reasons as in the
past. I feel some, not all, are choosing hsing because of the violence in the
schools. I am very aware of all the fabulous parents who send their children
to public schools, having taught for 10 years, but also know that more and
more parents think of school or any other place as a great place to "get rid
of them" for a while and I think that is a shame. I agree that some parents
may be stresses, aren't we all, and I have no problem helping, when asked. I
guess I resent people just assuming that others will take over when they don't
feel like it. Granted there are not a lot who feel this way, but I see the
numbers growing. Again I apologize and hope you will forgive me.
Michelle
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#99) Re: Considering HS but scared of the social isolat
AUTHOR: Michelle
DATE: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 5:22 p.m.
Reply To: (#77) Considering HS but scared of the social isolation
Author: Michelle
Date: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 4:47 p.m.
I agree with meeting at a park or other play area. The group I belong to meets
every Tuesday at a local park (in FL we meet year round). The kids play, the
moms get to talk to adults and we all get socialized. Not all the families
attend the park fellowship, but that is okay, too. We plan field trips,
parties and other activities as well. If you attend the meetings, but find
they are not for you, see if there is another support group in the area or try
to find a few other families and start your own. While meeting other families
through support groups, sports or where ever, your daughter will find friends
to invite over to play. I, too, have only one child and we live in a
neighborhood with very few children, so we invite lots of others over to play
and that way my child gets his socialization.
Michelle
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#100) Ignorance?
AUTHOR: Giovanna
DATE: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 5:23 p.m.
Reply To: (#98) Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers
Author: Michelle
Date: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 5:09 p.m.
: I am very aware of all the
: fabulous parents who send their children to
: public schools, having taught for 10 years,
: but also know that more and more parents
: think of school or any other place as a
: great place to "get rid of them"
You know what I think about this? I think it isn't necesarily to get "rid of
them" but more because they just haven't really sat down and considered that
they don't HAVE to put their school!
I think school has become such a "social thing" in our culture... Johnny turns
five so he goes to kindergarten and it's like a big, big milestone, you know?
A big, significant event! But not necesarily because of educational reasons
but more of a social reason. "Johnny is growing up" kind of thing. What do you
call that? Like a "coming of age" deal?
I just think that the average person doesn't question the status quo. They do
what they do because that's what has always been done and that's what everyone
else does.
Giovanna
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#101) Excellent post
AUTHOR: Annette
DATE: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 6:56 p.m.
Reply To: (#97) The importance of seeing people and not categories
Author: Kimmer
Date: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 4:53 p.m.
This is so good. I have had this same experience...long story. Aren't growth
experiences wonderful...painful at times but wonderful.
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#102) Re: How to make inclusive group work
AUTHOR: Katie in VA
DATE: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 9:38 p.m.
Reply To: (#94) Re: How to make inclusive group work
Author: dawne
Date: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 9:36 a.m.
: Katie, I realize you are doing the work here so
: you do deserve a fair share of decision
: making opportunities. I think defining the
: group is just fine but...would caution you
: to get input from the others.
Thanks, Dawne. I agree. It's not that I will fall into the "my group" trap so
much as I might let too many of my needs go unmet in order to please others. I
guess I want to have good boundaries for myself, but not take over the whole
thing. Your insight will help me stay clear about what I am doing and
why.....and how important the group will be for everyone, not just me. I'll
let you know how it goes! And I like your icebreaker idea! Katie
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#104) Thank you, Michelle :)
AUTHOR: Cerelle
DATE: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 11:01 p.m.
Reply To: (#98) Re: New Breed of Home Schoolers
Author: Michelle
Date: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 5:09 p.m.
Aw, Michelle, here's a big ol' hug! I guess what we've just seen is a
demonstration of the sensitivities some of us have about this stuff. All it
takes is a misplaced buzzword or two . . . and yikes! Watch the feathers fly!
I read an article in TIME Magazine last year (it came out the week after the
big cover story about homeschooling in Newsweek) about recent changes in the
demographics of the homeschooling movement. Some of the parents interviewed in
the article said essentially the same thing you did.
I am reminded of the social friction that took place in La Leche League
circles when breastfeeding finally went "mainstream." Suddenly, La Leche
League meetings began to be attended by new mothers who intended to go back to
work soon. Oh my! This was anathema to the purist oldtimers, who took a hard
line toward working moms. Their negative reaction, in turn, was off-putting to
the "new breed" of breastfeeders, who truly desired to give their babies the
best possible nutrition...even if they weren't stay-at-home moms.
And you know where I stood? You guessed it -- I was the beleaguered group
leader, trying to make peace! LOL!
Philosophically, I have always believed that the best way to bring about
social change is to do what you believe is right and do it well. Then, if you
manage to make a good job of it, others are likely to want to follow your
example. Back in my hippie days, this was commonly known as "not pushing your
trip." Still works for me! :)
Michelle, I appreciate the way you clarified your meaning, and I want to thank
you personally for not taking offense to those who took offense. *smile*
I really appreciate that! If there's anything I can't stand, it's a fight.
Cerelle
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#106) Re: Socialization with "others" (relates to thread
AUTHOR: Liz
DATE: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 11:04 p.m.
Reply To: (#90) Socialization with "others" (relates to thread bel
Author: Suz
Date: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 7:56 a.m.
:Yes, I think it's called tolerance, and it's something that many people
preach but few people really practice. Good for you, Suz. Lis in SC Okay,
Giovanna, I'm going to give this a shot:
: One of the positive goals that I have for my
: family is that we learn to appreciate
: others, even when they are VERY different
: from us. We live in a world of great
: diversity, and it seems unnecessarily
: limiting to interact only with those who
: hold the same opinions, values, beliefs and
: perspectives that we do.
: Homeschooling offers us the opportunity to
: explore those kinds of interactions without
: having to adhere to someone else's (ie, the
: government's or church's or political
: group's) agenda. Our children learn OUR
: values and beliefs, but can also learn to
: judge the value of individuals beyond their
: inclusion in a particular group.
: Oh, AAARG! I'm having a really hard time
: expressing this idea, but I think it's an
: important one. I hope at least some of this
: makes sense.
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#107) Re: Considering HS but scared of the social isolat
AUTHOR: Liz
DATE: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 11:10 p.m.
Reply To: (#77) Considering HS but scared of the social isolation
Author: Michelle
Date: Sunday, 6 February 2000, at 4:47 p.m.
: I don't think home schooling is for everyone, but if you are interested and
your daughter is in favor of it, then is very well might be for you. I home
schooled for almost three years without becoming a part of a group. My
daughter didn't need it and neither did I. She was in Brownie Scouts, Soccer,
Sunday School, and Children's Choir at church. She had all of the
socialization she needed. If you know of other families who are disenchanted
with the organized group, well . . . sounds as if you have the potential for
starting a new group. Why would you allow a group of uncooperative people
dissuade you from doing somelthing which can have so many positive results for
both you and your daughter? Think about the power YOU are allowing these
people to have over you and your decisions for your family. If it's a good
move for you and your daughter, do it. The group will come. Liz in SC I've
been planning to HS my daughter who is 5
: 1/2, beginning next fall. She truly wants to
: and we're both excited, or I was until I
: found out some info about our local HS
: group. We are not very active in church not
: because we aren't religious but because my
: husband has concerns about what he sees as
: hipocrisy in the church. My daughter is in
: gymnastics and music. She is shy and
: introverted but is very gentle, kind and
: considerate with friends. We only have 2
: kids her age in the neighborhood. I was
: counting on the local HS group to provide
: much socialization, they have a swimming,
: gym, arts and spanish program. I have not
: visited with them yet, but have heard from 2
: people who tried to join that they exclude
: any people who are not of a certain
: denomination or follow their code of
: "rules." I'm concerned if I kept
: my daughter at home she may be too isolated.
: Any reassurance or opinions (even if they're
: negative) would be appreciated. Also any
: tips on activites outside the home for this
: age group that open up opportunities for
: friendship would help. She doesn't seem to
: have much time for talking, socialization in
: Gym and music. Thanks.
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#108) Well said!
AUTHOR: Carol in Ohio
DATE: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 12:19 p.m.
Reply To: (#97) The importance of seeing people and not categories
Author: Kimmer
Date: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 4:53 p.m.
Now if all of us could just remember that and practice it. :-)
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#109) trying my question again...
AUTHOR: Denise
DATE: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 7:22 p.m.
I could have sworn that I posted my question here recently, but, alas, it's
nowhere to be found!
I often read and hear reports of the wonderful, well-socialized behavior of
homeschooled children, but, in my case, I haven't seen that to be the case.
Many of the children in my support group are petulant, disrepectful, and
cliquish. I know it's not due to the influence of public school because most
of these children have been unschooled or homeschooled since birth. Has any
else encountered this?
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#110) Re: trying my question again...
AUTHOR: Annette
DATE: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 8:53 p.m.
Reply To: (#109) trying my question again...
Author: Denise
Date: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 7:22 p.m.
:Yeah, I have noticed that some....I had one 11yo child ask me, when I allowed
my daughter to attend 3rd grade in the public schools, "Aren't you afraid her
being taught evolutionary theories?" with this total tone of "how stupid can
you be to allow such a thing?!" I also have noticed that when some children
speak their opinions confidently it can come across as rude or arrogant,
possibly even disrespectful. Mainly I think this is due to two reasons that I
can think of....the first being that we aren't too used to hearing children
speak with confidence and assurance. When they do we are kind of shocked and
taken aback and it can seem like they are challenging us..the adult. If we can
set that stuff aside we can learn a lot though.
The second would be that children who are allowed to speak freely are still
learning social graces, what is acceptable and what is not, how to share their
opinion in a palatable manner, how to use tact, how to be sensitive to others.
It is all a process. They are learning....lots of times by trial and error. I
would much rather a child speak his mind confidently and make a mistake than
hide away his thoughts due to fear of stepping on someones toes.
And I guess there probably are kids who are just rude too. But I really think
they are few and far between. I know the child I referred to above who was
worried about my young dd being indoctrinated by evolutionist was parroting
his parents....so I took it with a grain of salt.
I could have sworn that I posted my question
: here recently, but, alas, it's nowhere to be
: found!
: I often read and hear reports of the wonderful,
: well-socialized behavior of homeschooled
: children, but, in my case, I haven't seen
: that to be the case. Many of the children in
: my support group are petulant, disrepectful,
: and cliquish. I know it's not due to the
: influence of public school because most of
: these children have been unschooled or
: homeschooled since birth. Has any else
: encountered this?
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#111) Re: trying my question again...
AUTHOR: Susan
DATE: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 11:26 p.m.
Reply To: (#110) Re: trying my question again...
Author: Annette
Date: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 8:53 p.m.
It is my perception that while many hs kids are more mature and more polite
than their age peers, children in general these days tend to be rude. So do
very many adults, in my experience.
We, as a culture, IMHO, have forgotten simple kindness, respect and courtesy
somehow. I am regularly appalled by the behaviors I see in public, by people
of all ages. For instance, mothers smacking cranky children in the grocery
cart; young men shoving their way past elderlies or even pregnant women,
handicapped folks, women with tots in tow, etc. People interrupt more, too, it
seems to me. People call people at home, nights and weekends, expecting to
conduct business during family times.... Strangers call, trying to sell us
things we don't want when we just sat down for supper!
I read somewhere that it is a true measure of a culture's development/status
to look at how they treat children, old folks and handicapped folks. How often
do we see cars without those blue stickers parked in spots reserved for
handicapped people?
Look at our role models; look at the most popular forms of entertainment; look
at the messages that bombard us thousands of times each day through all media:
kindness and politeness are hard to find there.
Didn't mean to rave so, but I just don't see this as a ps/hs/kid/adult issue.
It seems epidemic across all ages in my experience. The good news is, we do
have some polite, kind adults and children in our life, and we try to spend
most of our time with them!
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#112) HMMM do you think
AUTHOR: Suz
DATE: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 7:22 a.m.
Reply To: (#111) Re: trying my question again...
Author: Susan
Date: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 11:26 p.m.
this endemic rudeness you're talking about might be at least partially the
result of several generations of children being socialized en masse by being
forced to submit to an artificial system that slowly beat down their spirit?
Suzanne, in kind of a cynical, blame the government frame of mind this
morning--MORE COFFEE! Please.
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#113) Re: trying my question again...
AUTHOR: Liz
DATE: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 8:01 a.m.
Reply To: (#109) trying my question again...
Author: Denise
Date: Tuesday, 8 February 2000, at 7:22 p.m.
:When we joined our group ( two (or has it been three) years ago) I felt that
there was some of that among the mothers as well as among the children. Now
that I have been around a while, I see that the mothers were probably trying
to catch up (they didn't see each other often) on news with one another. We
have a few new joiners who have been assoicated with the ps too long and have,
what we call, "that public school mentality." Luckily, most of our parents and
children do not exclude others. As I said, our group is very large (almost 300
families). I have seen the exclusion happen when groups consist of a handful
of families who are assoicated with one or two churches in general. It seems
like their socialization is a continuation from church etc. and that there is
no room for anyone who isn't a part of that tight little group. Our group
includes families from many many churches, and our band includes families who
are not members of the groups at all. We all travel too far and are too busy
to exclude one another. I know that there are some relationships that are
tighter than others, though. I've seen the situations to which you are
referring. It can make for a very unhappy evening for all who feel left out.
Liz in SC I could have sworn that I posted my question
: here recently, but, alas, it's nowhere to be
: found!
: I often read and hear reports of the wonderful,
: well-socialized behavior of homeschooled
: children, but, in my case, I haven't seen
: that to be the case. Many of the children in
: my support group are petulant, disrepectful,
: and cliquish. I know it's not due to the
: influence of public school because most of
: these children have been unschooled or
: homeschooled since birth. Has any else
: encountered this?
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#114) Re: HMMM do you think
AUTHOR: Susan
DATE: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 9:18 a.m.
Reply To: (#112) HMMM do you think
Author: Suz
Date: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 7:22 a.m.
Suzanne,
Entirely possible. We've slowly (over generations) given up so much
responsibility and so much control over our lives, and when I say "we" I mean
Americans as a nation. Yet we have the illusion that we are "in control", we
"have everything under control," we can "control our destiny" etc. The flip
side of that is our ability to see most things as "not my problem."
I think the influence of compulsory schooling on the deterioration of manners
is a strong one, but no stronger than rampant consumerism and the resulting
spoiled-ness of several generations, mine included (me me me, more more more);
no stronger than permissive parenting styles in recent generations, which,
while they have merit in many ways, do not seem to result in children or
adults with good manners, or understanding/respect of boundaries and limits.
The shift in family and community institutions, and the great mobility (with
its accompanying loss of roots) also play a large part IMHO. Very complicated,
but I think the solution must begin at home, with kind but firm parental
influence......(tough love, as needed, on a daily basis--no more of this
parent-as-child's- best-friend, don't-want-to- make-little-Johnny-mad-at-me
stuff) Off for more coffee myself :-)
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#115) Healthy support group
AUTHOR: Peggy
DATE: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 4:43 p.m.
It would be helpful to speak about what makes a support group healthy. Some
random thoughts: Inclusiveness is one aspect. Well defined rules about
behaviors (parents and students) expected at various events, would be another.
Instead of demanding all to THINK alike, expect respectable behavior from all
participating. Just as in a family the rules define the boundaries, the rules
can also serve as a teacher for those who do not know what good manners are.
I am aware of a wonderful, bright, loving person who grew up under deplorable
conditions. She needed to know what was acceptable in terms of cleanliness,
appropriate dress (Church clothes, casual dressy, jeans and T-shirts with no
holes,or "mud clothes") for outings , etc. Spelling things out in the form of
a dress code in our handbook was a real boon to her. Any other ideas?
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#116) Re: Thank you, Michelle :)
AUTHOR: Michelle
DATE: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 6:00 p.m.
Reply To: (#104) Thank you, Michelle :)
Author: Cerelle
Date: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 11:01 p.m.
Cerelle Thank you for the wonderful note and the encouragement. I really
appreciate it.
Michelle
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#117) Re: Ignorance?
AUTHOR: Michelle
DATE: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 6:06 p.m.
Reply To: (#100) Ignorance?
Author: Giovanna
Date: Monday, 7 February 2000, at 5:23 p.m.
Giovanna, I think you are right that some parents don't know that there are
alternatives and that it is a milestone for the child. But I heard a lot of
people when there child turned five saying things like great now he/she will
be out of my hair for the day or how wonderful that all the kids were gone for
the day so they could get on with their lives ( work or shopping). It made me
so sad. I have always had a soft spot for children, that is why I became a
teacher, and I guess I don't understand how you wouldn't want to be with your
child. I remember crying when my child was six weeks old. Not for him, but for
all the children put in daycare at six weeks. I know I am wierd, but I don't
understand when people ask me how I stand being home with my 7yo all day. Not
that everything is perfect in my house, but I would miss him. As you can see I
am very, very grateful God lead us to homeschool. I can't think of a better
way for our family.
Michelle
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#118) Re: Ignorance?
AUTHOR: Giovanna
DATE: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 10:30 p.m.
Reply To: (#117) Re: Ignorance?
Author: Michelle
Date: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 6:06 p.m.
: But I heard a lot of people when
: there child turned five saying things like
: great now he/she will be out of my hair for
: the day or how wonderful that all the kids
: were gone for the day so they could get on
: with their lives ( work or shopping).
Oh I have too! And it breaks my heart! I have to wonder though how much of
this is attributed to "ignorance" as well. You know, I hear these moms express
themselves like this and I think, "oh my gosh, they can't possibly be feeling
like this for real, can't they?" I wonder how many of these moms say these
things because they "think" they are supposed to feel that way about their
children. I don't know if I'm making sense here or not but the attitude that
people have about their children is there mostly because they've been
"convinced" that this the way they are supposed to feel. It's back to that
"status quo" thing I was saying in my previous post. Not many people actually
sit down and think about what they are doing or why. They just assume that
this is the way it has to be because that's what everyone else has done.
But then again what do I know?
I can't imagine what it must feel for a child to hear that their mom can't
stand to be with them all day long.
Giovanna
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#119) Re: Ignorance?
AUTHOR: Susan
DATE: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 7:13 a.m.
Reply To: (#118) Re: Ignorance?
Author: Giovanna
Date: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 10:30 p.m.
I can say that at least in some cases, it is indeed because parents are
culturally trained to think/feel that way. I remember a time when I could not
wait to get both boys in school so I could return to an earning situation.
Boy, have I grown and learned and changed a lot since those days! BTW, I am
generally regarded amongst friends and others as a free thinker, renegade,
oddball and firebrand at varous times. So even free thinkers have plenty of
cultural baggage laid on them to break out of as needed ;-)
The thing is, I had a great school experience (in a private prep school 12
yrs), and thought that's the same thing my kids had to look forward to in our
local public school. What a rude awakening. Ignorance or hopeless
idealism--the price I pay for my sheltered upbringing perhaps?
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#120) More Hugs for Michelle
AUTHOR: Suz
DATE: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 7:57 a.m.
Michelle, Thank you for your gracious apology. Please accept mine. I did get
rather upset when I read that post, and I certainly allowed myself to get a
bit confrontational:
I think that this so-called "new breed" has less to do with that phenomenon
than some of you are willing to admit.
I think that statement is a bit harsh, and again I apologize for that. I do
think that some very constructive dialogue came out of the whole exchange.
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#121) Ignorant Parents
AUTHOR: Suz
DATE: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 8:06 a.m.
I definitely belonged to the Ignorant Parent category. I quit teaching when my
older son was born because I had been told by so many parents that they felt I
knew their child better than they did! I knew that wasn't what I wanted for my
family.
I was totally unaware that there was an alternative to enrolling in school. My
kids attended Montessori and public schools until this year. Now I find myself
missing the years they spent away from me.
(Trying to bring this back to topic) Perhaps the same social influences that
might lead a parent to feel that they shouldn't enjoy their childrens' company
are a factor in the deterioration of manners and behavior in their kids.
***************************************************************************
MESSAGE: (#122) BINGO!
AUTHOR: Giovanna
DATE: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 9:28 a.m.
Reply To: (#121) Ignorant Parents
Author: Suz
Date: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 8:06 a.m.
: Perhaps
: the same social influences that might lead a
: parent to feel that they shouldn't enjoy
: their childrens' company are a factor in the
: deterioration of manners and behavior in
: their kids.
Well, I believe this has a direct correlation to the lack of relationships
between parent and child and I do believe it has something to do with all of
the atrocious acts committed by young people today.
Parents who claim they are "out of touch" with their teen? Parents who claim
they had no idea their children were being bullied at school? Parents who have
no clue that their child IS the bully?
How can they have "NO IDEA"? It's unreal but when you look at in through this
context then you see why. This culture "trains" parents not to bond with their
children.
How many times have you heard a mother of a young child say, "Tommy is just
way to attached to me so we are putting him in daycare." SEE? As if there was
something wrong with being attached! We push our children out of our lives
little by little and yes.... in my opinion we are now seeing the results of
this type of thinking.
Plus also I think the job of being a stay at home mom is horribly undervalued.
I have friends whose families look down on them and even express their
disaproval at them staying at home. They feel they should be out earning a
living! You've got to wonder about that!! No wonder our children are acting
the way they are. They are being rejected, it seems, since they are six weeks
old!!!
Giovanna
***************************************************************************
End of part 1
Back to the Top
Back to the Digest Index