Digests from the KALEIDOSCAPES MONTHLY TOPIC
(HOMESCHOOLING) DISCUSSION BOARD

These are the original digests from Kaleidoscapes' MONTHLY TOPIC discussion boards.
They were hosted by two amazing gals: Giovanna Gomez and Cerelle Woods Simmons.
The boards are no longer available (thus, links to them won't work); you can, however, still
find many of the same wonderful folks who posted on the boards at Network 54.
Finally, there are no banners or pop-up ads throughout these digests.
Hopefully you will consider shopping through our Amazon links occasionally.
(Thanks!)

Back to the Digest Index

Homeschooling Middle School
and Beyond Digest (part 3)

    MESSAGE:  The bright side
      AUTHOR:  Cerelle
        DATE:  Monday, 15 March 1999, at 10:29 p.m.

 Response To:  Motivation (was: Negative Consequences )
      Author:  Sarah
        Date:  Monday, 15 March 1999, at 1:08 a.m.



Hi, Sarah--

I understand your concern. At the same time, I wonder if there might
not be some academic qualities to all that computer time that aren't
immediately apparent.

For one thing, I'll bet he's gotten really fast on that keyboard.
I know a lot of high school kids who take "Keyboarding Skills," just
to bring them up to speed.

For another thing, even though it looks like he's "just socializing"
on those chat boards, keep in mind that he's reading and writing the
whole time. OK, the content might be kind of fluffy...but it's still
reading and writing. That's a considerable step ahead of hanging out
at the mall with his friends. He's learning to be fluent in his writing,
and while it may be mostly stream of consciousness, I imagine he has
to think fast on his feet to keep up with the conversation.

Don't undervalue his volunteer position at the TV station. This is
great stuff. It'll look wonderful when/if he applies to colleges...really!
And in another couple of years, it could easily translate into a paying
job with good prestige.

If you fear his computer-focus is too all-encompassing, you do have
the right to impose some limits. I don't know that I'd want to cut
him off cold turkey. As you say, it's a BIG part of his life, and
he would probably feel extremely resentful if you prohibited it completely.
I'm a big believer in negotiation and compromise. If you can work
together to arrive at a solution that pleases everyone, then all of
you "win" and no one "loses."

I guess we always worry a little more about the unschooled kids who
don't love books, simply because the voracious readers usually get
so much from their reading without anyone having to actively "teach"
them. I'm sure you've already tried everything, but does he even spurn
the books on computer gaming? Is he at all interested in developing/designing
games himself? Has he begun to learn programming skills, computer
languages, etc.? Once he has a context in which the math makes sense
and is necessary, he may eat it up in no time. I've seen it happen
(not with my own kids, who have little or no interest in computer
games, but in other unschooled kids who went on to be whopping successes
in their mid to late teens).

Meanwhile, what's his conversation like? How's his vocabulary? I've
yet to see a kid grow up in an intellectual family without picking
up an awful lot by osmosis. If he has audial problems, it may not
be quite as easy for him to learn by overhearing, but I can't imagine
that nothing at all is getting through.

If your patience is worn thin, you could try a little bargaining.
Quid pro quo. If he agrees to choose from a range of "acceptable"
academic activities you lay before him, you'll give him some of YOUR
time in an activity of HIS choosing. Notice -- the reward isn't material,
but time-based. Your time for his, pure and simple. (When I've resorted
to this kind of thing, I've put my time in first, just to prove I'm
trustworthy -- but that's up to you.)

I don't know...in tough cases, you have to get creative. I'm sure
you've brainstormed until you're blue in the face, but that great
idea that turns the lock might still be just around the corner. Keep
putting possibilities in front of him, spend plenty of time with him
(as much as he'll allow, or more), and let him know you think he's
marvelous for all the things he already does well. He's still very
young, and next year could be a whole different ballgame. Sometimes
kids this age get "stuck" in one mode for a while, only to break out
(to everyone's amazement and relief) when the time is ripe.

Computers ARE addictive...look at me! It's after midnight, but here
I sit, typing away. Who am I to give advice??? ;-)

Cerelle

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  here's still another stock market tutorial
      AUTHOR:  Janie G.
        DATE:  Monday, 15 March 1999, at 10:31 p.m.

 Response To:  13yob wants to learn about investing
      Author:  Shari
        Date:  Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 6:58 a.m.



http://library.advanced.org/3088/

includes a tutorial, stock market simulation

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: "the nut doesn't fall far from the tree"
      AUTHOR:  LaurieM
        DATE:  Monday, 15 March 1999, at 10:35 p.m.

 Response To:  Re: "the nut doesn't fall far from the tree"
      Author:  Sarah
        Date:  Monday, 15 March 1999, at 6:10 p.m.



>Sarah - I am new to this board, so I don't anything about your son's
history, but this sounds depressingly like what we went through with
my now-18-year-old daughter. Like you, we were doing lots of the right
things with aggravatingly poor results. It was so frustrating to watch
this highly intelligent, capable girl do extremely well in some areas
and nothing at all in others.

We put her in ps in 9th grade, thinking that WE must somehow be the
problem, since she did so well in her volunteer and other activities
away from home. She became much, much worse - we finally took her
to a psychotherapist who did extensive testing, discovering depression,
learning disabilities, anxiety attacks and other problems. There was
no simple answer - she has had to work on these things one at a time,
using trial and error. She has made enormous progress but has had
a few setbacks along the way. The therapist shares our Christian faith
and his wife homeschools their children: I feel that this has helped
us to have unity of purpose with him. My daughter credits him with
saving her life.

I also feel very strongly that homeschooling and a rich supportive
family environment has saved her self-esteem and confidence. I say
this because it appears to me that your son also feels your love and
support - it seems to me that his perceived shortcomings must bother
him also, even if he won't admit it to you.

Maybe I am completely offbase - please accept my apology in advance
if this is so.

> My dh and I decided to learn Spanish,
> did all the drilling, excited conversations
> using the newfound liguistic skills....
> nothing! He observed us with bemusement,
> some of the words even stuck in his
> own head, too, but refused to participate
> actively. We went on a vacation to Cuba
> [we are from Canada :-)] but he wasn't
> willing to use even those words that
> we knew he knew.

> He has a wonderful relationship
> with his older brother (22), whom he
> sees studying hard at university, and
> who actually diagnosed himself during
> his brother's LD upheaval as having
> autistic traits himself (he seems to
> be a concrete thinker, thinks in concepts,
> images, not words). The younger idolizes,
> imitates the older, whatever the older
> says, goes! Except in matters educational...
>

> We make a point watching mostly
> educational channels on TV (nobody in
> our house watches/is interested in soaps/sitcoms/sport
> events - except maybe gymnastics or
> tennis). He watches with us often, but
> when I recently borrowed a videotape
> on Mesopotamia and we all sat down to
> watch it, he whined and complained all
> through the viewing and made the experience
> quite unpleasant.

> Sarah

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Motivation
      AUTHOR:  LaurieM
        DATE:  Monday, 15 March 1999, at 10:56 p.m.

 Response To:  Re: Motivation
      Author:  Sarah
        Date:  Monday, 15 March 1999, at 5:46 p.m.



> Thanks dmx,

> You raised some very valid points!
>

> But:

> ......limiting

> Hah...! It would be extremely painful
> to him. See my reply to Giovanna. That
> is the source of his greatest pride.
> He attends to it almost as a workaholic
> doing his daily job...

> He agrees every once in a while
> to do something but he very quickly
> "fizzles out", leaves it incomplete
> and resists, in tears, when I try to
> insist on him finishing it...

> That is the only thought that keeps
> us hanging in with unschooling! My only
> - nagging - feeling about the whole
> issue is that he might be struggling
> with feelings of inferiority, and he
> would rather avoid studying in fear
> of failure. In grade 3 he was diagnosed
> as high functioning PDD-NOS with good
> average intelligence but developmentally
> behind emotionally (immature) as well
> as in language (was very good in math,
> though) by about a year and a half.
> "For his own good" he was
> placed in a special ed class, which
> in turn caused LOTS of problems for
> him, to the point when we said "enough
> is enough" and withdrew him from
> school.

> Sarah Dear Sarah - I posted my earlier response before reading this
post - this sounds even more like our experience with our daughter!
We took her out of ps when they wanted to put her into special ed
- I knew in my heart that wasn't the answer. Even now, she shows some
of the same behaviors - she will not clean her room, no matter what
the consequences. On "housekeeper days" she piles everything she owns
on her bed so that they can dust and vacuum. Then she just pushes
it all off again when they leave. She constantly says that she is
going to clean up and get organized, but never carries through.

If it seems appropriate to you (and you're not already doing this)
I would suggest some kind of counseling. Keep looking until you find
help that works for you. The onset of puberty could have something
to do with this, too. That was a trigger for our daughter.

We became so desperate with our daughter! I knew deep inside that
something was wrong but it has been hard for me to accept the large
of challenges she has been dealing with. But - acknowledgment was
the first step in resolution. She has come so far, I'm extra proud
of her because I was there through all the struggles.

Again, if you think this is not at all applicable to your son, I apologize....


               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  I can relate, too!
      AUTHOR:  Cerelle
        DATE:  Monday, 15 March 1999, at 11:11 p.m.

 Response To:  Re: That's just the thing -- how do we handle our own
embarrassment?
      Author:  dmx
        Date:  Monday, 15 March 1999, at 12:51 p.m.



Godzilla, huh? Well, with MY son, it's Star Wars...ad nauseum (oops,
I mean infinitum). Boy, have I ever had a hard time accepting it,
too. I mean -- Star Wars???? It's so bourgeois! LOL!

And what really galls me is the commercial angle, the obsessive drive
to collect ALL the action figures, the desire to watch all the movies
again and again. I keep wanting to write to Kenner toys (or whoever
it is that manufactures all that stuff) to beg them to start churning
out action figures of all the principle characters in the Odyssey
and Iliad. Not that I think that's going to happen in my lifetime.

Meanwhile, I see that he's certainly developing his memory muscle.
He can spout all those weird names and places and "facts" (I'm shaking
my head, here) like a geyser. He reads up on the background material
as if it were his job, assiduously, passionately, joyfully. He finds
a way to bring Star Wars into every conversation. He matches wits
and memory with his best friend and fellow SW fanatic. He draws Star
Wars airships and weaponry. He constructs costumes. He festoons his
bedroom walls with Star Wars graphics.

Nope, I just don't get it. Except...I have this clear memory of being
similarly involved with all the Oz books when I was younger. I'm afraid
I drew pictures of Ozma, with those big flowers on either side of
her head. I drew maps of Oz. I read the books again and again, and
if action figures of Dorothy and the Wizard had been available in
my day, you can bet I would have begged for them.

So. I DO understand. But it took me a while. I'm afraid I gave the
poor fellow a pretty hard time in the beginning, too. I sneered at
his passion and made negative comparisons between Star Wars and other
sagas *I* deemed more worthy of his attention. (Need I mention that
this did nothing to discourage his interest in Star Wars? It only
made him feel crummy and unapprectiated.)

Anyway, Godzilla's pretty cool. My daughters loved him when they were
little. We found a big Godzilla toy at a garage sale once -- it walked
and flashed and turned its head and looked generally menacing. It
was their favorite toy for years! ;-)

Cerelle

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: another thought
      AUTHOR:  Lisa Torres
        DATE:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 3:07 a.m.

 Response To:  The bright side
      Author:  Cerelle
        Date:  Monday, 15 March 1999, at 10:29 p.m.



We require our son to do schoolwork for a certain (brief) time period
each day, in a neutral setting. (He comes to my workplace, actually.
He'd be embarrassed to fuss about the work when others could hear
him, so he works--usually!) Maybe an hour or two at the local library,
or a coffee shop, or somewhere public with few distractions, just
to work on math, perhaps? I think the computer time seems excessive,
although I agree with Cerelle that he's probably learning a lot more
than you might think, however...if the lure of the computer is so
great, you might consider enrolling him in an on-line math course.
Clonlara's Compuhigh has these, and there are others out there...

> Hi, Sarah--

> I understand your concern. At the
> same time, I wonder if there might not
> be some academic qualities to all that
> computer time that aren't immediately
> apparent.

> For one thing, I'll bet he's gotten
> really fast on that keyboard. I know
> a lot of high school kids who take "Keyboarding
> Skills," just to bring them up
> to speed.

> For another thing, even though
> it looks like he's "just socializing"
> on those chat boards, keep in mind that
> he's reading and writing the whole time.
> OK, the content might be kind of fluffy...but
> it's still reading and writing. That's
> a considerable step ahead of hanging
> out at the mall with his friends. He's
> learning to be fluent in his writing,
> and while it may be mostly stream of
> consciousness, I imagine he has to think
> fast on his feet to keep up with the
> conversation.

> Don't undervalue his volunteer
> position at the TV station. This is
> great stuff. It'll look wonderful when/if
> he applies to colleges...really! And
> in another couple of years, it could
> easily translate into a paying job with
> good prestige.

> If you fear his computer-focus
> is too all-encompassing, you do have
> the right to impose some limits. I don't
> know that I'd want to cut him off cold
> turkey. As you say, it's a BIG part
> of his life, and he would probably feel
> extremely resentful if you prohibited
> it completely. I'm a big believer in
> negotiation and compromise. If you can
> work together to arrive at a solution
> that pleases everyone, then all of you
> "win" and no one "loses."
>

> I guess we always worry a little
> more about the unschooled kids who don't
> love books, simply because the voracious
> readers usually get so much from their
> reading without anyone having to actively
> "teach" them. I'm sure you've
> already tried everything, but does he
> even spurn the books on computer gaming?
> Is he at all interested in developing/designing
> games himself? Has he begun to learn
> programming skills, computer languages,
> etc.? Once he has a context in which
> the math makes sense and is necessary,
> he may eat it up in no time. I've seen
> it happen (not with my own kids, who
> have little or no interest in computer
> games, but in other unschooled kids
> who went on to be whopping successes
> in their mid to late teens).

> Meanwhile, what's his conversation
> like? How's his vocabulary? I've yet
> to see a kid grow up in an intellectual
> family without picking up an awful lot
> by osmosis. If he has audial problems,
> it may not be quite as easy for him
> to learn by overhearing, but I can't
> imagine that nothing at all is getting
> through.

> If your patience is worn thin,
> you could try a little bargaining. Quid
> pro quo. If he agrees to choose from
> a range of "acceptable" academic
> activities you lay before him, you'll
> give him some of YOUR time in an activity
> of HIS choosing. Notice -- the reward
> isn't material, but time-based. Your
> time for his, pure and simple. (When
> I've resorted to this kind of thing,
> I've put my time in first, just to prove
> I'm trustworthy -- but that's up to
> you.)

> I don't know...in tough cases,
> you have to get creative. I'm sure you've
> brainstormed until you're blue in the
> face, but that great idea that turns
> the lock might still be just around
> the corner. Keep putting possibilities
> in front of him, spend plenty of time
> with him (as much as he'll allow, or
> more), and let him know you think he's
> marvelous for all the things he already
> does well. He's still very young, and
> next year could be a whole different
> ballgame. Sometimes kids this age get
> "stuck" in one mode for a
> while, only to break out (to everyone's
> amazement and relief) when the time
> is ripe.

> Computers ARE addictive...look
> at me! It's after midnight, but here
> I sit, typing away. Who am I to give
> advice??? ;-)

> Cerelle

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: I can relate, too!
      AUTHOR:  Giovanna
        DATE:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 6:10 a.m.

 Response To:  I can relate, too!
      Author:  Cerelle
        Date:  Monday, 15 March 1999, at 11:11 p.m.



My son is a Star Wars fanatic too---has quite an impressive collection
of action figures and space ships. What makes this bad though is that
my husband is just as bad, if not worse, than my son when it comes
to Star Wars. They actually have a countdown clock running to the
day Episode 1 comes out. YES! I'm ashamed to admit it.

Actually it's quite amusing to watch my husband act my son's age!!!

We have the original Star Wars trilogy on video AND the new and enhanced
version as well. My son watches these with the same enthusiasm as
if it were the first time. So does my husband! :-0

But I tell ya, if it hadn't been for George Lucas and his idea of
re-releasing these films my son would not be so interested in the
things he is interested now. Watching those on the big screen led
to a unbelievable series of educational events in this house. From
Star Wars all the way to learning all the ins and outs of the history
of space exploration, collecting mission patches, the creation of
a "space notebook", an interest in astronomy..... all kinds of stuff.

Giovanna

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  I agree -- a change of venue is a good idea
      AUTHOR:  Cerelle
        DATE:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 8:24 a.m.

 Response To:  Re: another thought
      Author:  Lisa Torres
        Date:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 3:07 a.m.



Lisa wrote:

"Maybe an hour or two at the local library, or a coffee shop, or somewhere
public with few distractions, just to work on math, perhaps?"

Good advice! I've used this little trick to my advantage lots of times.
The slightest environmental change can make the Same Old Thing look
and feel different -- ideally, more attractive and less threatening
or boring or whatever. Moving the work to a different location seems
to give it a more acceptable flavor, sometimes. Don't ask me why.

And Lisa, I loved what you said about kids being embarrassed to fuss
about their school work in public. LOL! That's true! My kids always
try a little harder to look studious when they know other people are
watching. I never really thought of it that way before, but I think
you're right!

Cerelle

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Sarah
      AUTHOR:  Kim ... from Canada
        DATE:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 8:30 a.m.

 Response To:  Re: Motivation
      Author:  LaurieM
        Date:  Monday, 15 March 1999, at 10:56 p.m.



You're probably tired of advice by now ;-)

But I just read this book... :-)

It really did give me some insight into my oldest daughter, though.

"right brained children in a left brained world"

I think the author is Jeffery Freed.

It was the "thinks in pictures not words" comment that you made- that
makes me think this book would be very applicable to your situation.
I think the way you have described your son fits the kids (usually
boys) that Dr. Freed describes.

:-)

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: The bright side - absolutely
      AUTHOR:  dmx
        DATE:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 8:52 a.m.

 Response To:  The bright side
      Author:  Cerelle
        Date:  Monday, 15 March 1999, at 10:29 p.m.



I second all that Cerelle says and naturally have to add something
:). There's no doubt that a lot is going on if he's doing tv volunteer
work in addition to hours reading and writing on the computer. There's
some real education going on. Following Cafi's advice (again), 'look
at the donut not the hole, you might try writing down what he does
every day and translating it into educationalese. You might be favorably
impressed.

Another point. I've always felt that I, as parent, have a right to
ask my son to do some things just because I feel it's important. Many
of these things have gone by the wayside as I've discovered they weren't
as important as I thought. But a few things I'm glad we did: a few
months of piano, working at a sketchy outline of history, and learning
Spanish. All of these he enjoys to a certain extent but wouldn't do
if left on his own. The key for us has been that I explain why & weather
the initial criticism, explaining again each time the complaints arise.

Though my son was much younger at the time, I had a very hard time
limiting my son's video gaming to one hour (at that time, most games
didn't have a password, so you had to play a LONG time to make progress.
If you quit, you had to go back to the beginning and start over again).
Anyway, I finally explained my reasons and laid down the law. Every
time he begged, complained, etc, I explained again. Though he STILL
complains (7 years later :)), there is no rancor. He understands,
he just wants more. No problem. Conversation + some requirements to
keep you sane doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: 13yob wants to learn about investing
      AUTHOR:  Sharon
        DATE:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 4:02 p.m.

 Response To:  13yob wants to learn about investing
      Author:  Shari
        Date:  Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 6:58 a.m.



Try http://www.fool.com/ They have written a couple of books and the
web page is very informative.

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Ideas to EXCITE kids about writing
      AUTHOR:  Cafi
        DATE:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 7:15 p.m.

 Response To:  Writing
      Author:  Giovanna
        Date:  Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 4:31 p.m.



Hi Giovanna --

You wrote

> Anyhow, I would like to discuss pratical ways we can get middleschoolers
excited about writing. What sort of foundations should be laid BEFORE
middle school? What kind of writing should be done during middle school?

My ideas about writing are detailed in article linked below. Specifically
addressing foundations in the elementary years, I would encourage
ALL to focus on -->

(1) Lots of reading, including lots of reading aloud; many famous
writers cite the influence of earlier writers;

(2) Lots of discussion -- of almost anything in the kid's life. One
of the first problems I encounter when I mentor young writers is that
they cannot summarize anything, even just in conversation (let alone
in writing). Discussion fosters verbal communication and eventually
enhances writing.

(3) Almost always writing for what I call Real Purposes (see article
below). Write shopping lists, thank you notes, family newsletter articles,
scripts for neighborhood drama productions, short vignettes for Reader's
Digest, 4-H Project reports, and so on.

To specifically interest midschoolers in writing, to get them to the
point of EXCITEMENT. . .

FIND A PROJECT THAT INCLUDES WRITING. Here are some ideas:

Family or neighborhood newsletter

Letters to the editor about some outrageous situation in community

Email or snail mail correspondence

Contest entries

Autobiography

Biographies of parents/grandparents

Diary or Journal

Movie and TV show and video game reviews

Cafi in CA


               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Reply: Motivation - Laurie, Kim
      AUTHOR:  Sarah
        DATE:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 8:03 p.m.

 Response To:  Re: Sarah
      Author:  Kim ... from Canada
        Date:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 8:30 a.m.



> You're probably tired of advice
> by now ;-)

Nope, not true! I read with utmost interest everything that gives
me even the tiniest hope to be helpful! And yes, I have read Dr Freed's
book. As a matter of fact I even have got B. (my son) checked out,
he is neither right, nor left brained, he is sort of in the middle,
just like myself..:-)

My older one is the "concrete thinker" and he is a delightful young
man, already in business school!

As for B., he went through a very rough period during, and immediately
following, his PS experience. We even saw a psychiatrist for a short
while. It will be a year soon since she told us that B. is well enough
not to have to see her any more. And he is truly making wonderful
progress on the daily basis. When it comes to chores, he grumbles
but he does them. He loves to run errands for or assist anyone asking
for his hepl.

His sole "dark/grey/mysterious" area is academic or any type of educational
pursuits - he gets agitated whenever the topic is even raised...

That's the reason I am trying to pick people's minds on this forum
:-) And, thankfully, the ideas are pouring in!!!!

Grateful thanks,

Sarah

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Hats off to Cafi!
      AUTHOR:  Cerelle
        DATE:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 8:41 p.m.

 Response To:  Ideas to EXCITE kids about writing
      Author:  Cafi
        Date:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 7:15 p.m.



Cafi, this is precisely what I was trying to get across, but as usual,
you said it much more succinctly and convincingly! I should really
stick to fiction... ;-)

I'm especially glad you emphasized reading, conversation, and letter
writing. I, too, believe these are paramount -- but often go unrecognized
as important elements of a writing curriculum.

Everyone gets so hung up on school-assignment writing, even in the
early years. In truth, very little real-world writing bears any resemblence
to the typical things school students are required to write. It's
crazy. To become a published writer, I had to UNLEARN most of what
I was taught in school about writing.

Cerelle

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Here is that URL again!
      AUTHOR:  Giovanna
        DATE:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 8:55 p.m.

 Response To:  Ideas to EXCITE kids about writing
      Author:  Cafi
        Date:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 7:15 p.m.



Cafi wrote:

> My ideas about writing are detailed
> in article linked below.

Here is the URL

http://www.concentric.net/~Ctcohen/writer.htm

I wanted to post this again, in the body of the message instead of
a link, so that it will transfer when we make this board into a permanent
archive!

:-)

Thanks for your wonderful post Cafi!

Giovanna

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Verbal Abuse
      AUTHOR:  Giovanna
        DATE:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 9:15 p.m.

 Response To:  Verbal Abuse
      Author:  Rita
        Date:  Monday, 15 March 1999, at 10:28 a.m.



> We have a group of girls (only
> one boy) ages 8 through 14 that have
> many, many assets. However, we do have
> verbal abuse (put-downs, sarcasm and
> wolf pack behavior (leaving kids out).
> As a family, we think addressing unacceptable
> verbal behavior in the Constitution
> is a start of correcting behavior.

Rita:

I had to think over your post long and hard. I do not parent middleschoolers
yet but I do have a lot of experience with them. I teach them and
I am very involved with this age group at my church.

Put downs, sarcastic behavior is sadly very common with this age group.
I don't have any clear cut answers for you except to say that we do
not tolerate this type of behavior in our group. Period.

Should you enforce this rule? I think it is a good idea.

Let me tell you what happened in our group. We asked the kids themselves
to establish the rules of conduct for our group. A lot of them agreed
they did not want put downs and to be made fun of. They agreed on
the "punishment" and I was surprised at how strict and harsh their
punishment suggestions were. Very simply... if anyone in the group
started doing this they would be suspended for a week. After a repeated
offense they would not be able to come back.

I sensed that they wanted a group they could feel comfortable in.
They wanted the freedom to be themselves without having to put up
their guard, sort of speak.

Has anyone broken the rules? Yes. They were quickly chastised by the
group. Funny how "peer pressure" works both ways. It can be negative
and it can be positive as well. It was very interesting to watch them
protect each other.

Maybe your rule will work better if it is something that the kids
themselves agree upon. It all really depends on the mechanics of the
group though. If there are "cliques" already established within your
group then adult intervention might be necessary.

Giovanna

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: The bright side
      AUTHOR:  Sarah
        DATE:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 11:47 p.m.

 Response To:  The bright side
      Author:  Cerelle
        Date:  Monday, 15 March 1999, at 10:29 p.m.



>He's learning to be fluent in his writing, and
>while it may be mostly stream of consciousness,
>I imagine he has to think fast on his feet to
>keep up with the conversation.

Oh, I am fully aware of the educational value of all his computer
activities! He reads and writes at lightning speed, his spelling is
quite impressive (every 2-3 three minutes he shouts: "Moooom, how
do you spell...?") and he is not on general chat boards, he is mIRC-ing
and ICQ-ing about computer related technical stuff. He also "beta-tests"
programs for companies and in return he gets free stuff...

----------------

>Don't undervalue his volunteer position at the
>TV station.... in another couple of years, it
>could easily translate into a paying job with
>good prestige.

I would still want him to have a broader education...!

----------------

>If you can work together to arrive at a solution
>that pleases everyone, then all of you "win" and
>no one "loses."

We are very much a discussing/analyzing/negotiating kind of family,
I am particularly thankful for my older son's input, who has observations
and ideas beyond his years, and who is an "idol" in B.'s eyes. But
"education" is a magic word that makes him bolt when he hears it....

------------------

>does he even spurn the books on computer gaming?
>Is he at all interested in developing/designing
>games himself? Has he begun to learn programming
>skills, computer languages, etc.?

Oh, no no no... thech books are very acceptable! And of course magazines,
like "PC Accelerator"! He does regularly design "patches" for his
favourite games, fluent in Java and Java script, he maintains the
Links Page at the site of that TV show, etc...

-----------------

>Meanwhile, what's his conversation like? How's
>his vocabulary?

His understanding is much better then his conversational abilities.
All his earlier years he had to struggle getting his messages across.
Words were lots of times "just at the tip of his tongue", but, oh,
so elusive! So many times he just gave up in frustration! Now it's
much better, but he still sounds younger then his actual age (except
of course in computerese...) As for his processing problem, he still
cannot follow long-winded texts, he just not long ago reached the
stage when he finally "gets" the full storyline of movies.

-------------------

>If he agrees to choose from a range of
>"acceptable" academic activities you lay before
>him, you'll give him some of YOUR time in an
>activity of HIS choosing.

IFFF he agreed...! At this point the only acceptable activity is an
occasional page in a penmanship exercise book and even then often
he throws down the pencil saying "I don't want to do it, I suck at
it!"

-------------------

>I'm sure you've brainstormed until you're blue
>in the face,

Yup!!

------------------

>spend plenty of time with him (as much as he'll
>allow, or more),

Oh, the whole family is in and out and around all day! I have been
a SAHM for a while [Here lies MY problem: sometimes resenting the
"sacrifice" of sitting here waiting for him to come around.... Don't
worry, I am working on the solution...:-)]

-----------------------

>He's still very young, and next year could be a
>whole different ballgame.

Personally I am quite confident that sooner or later he will come
around! I do have the example of my older son, who actually just hit
the age of "self-improvement fever" at 22. Theoretically I also don't
really care when will B. aquire the necessary knowledge base, as long
as he does it eventually. But I regularly have to act as a shield
when it comes to the scorn of our extended family and friends, who
regularly point it out that B. is so much behind his age level requirements
academically. And I feel lucky that for a while I have managed to
dodge the visits of the appointed liaison from the school board! She
used to come regularly at the beginning and tried even to test B.
and then go "tsk, tsk" when he didn't perform well. Then I joined
a homeschoolers' umbrella school, but the Board is working hard to
get them declared illegal... ------------------

>Computers ARE addictive...look at me!

Hmmm... let me just check what time is it right now! WHAAAT?.....2:40
am!? ..... tsk, tsk :-)


               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: another thought
      AUTHOR:  Sarah
        DATE:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 11:58 p.m.

 Response To:  Re: another thought
      Author:  Lisa Torres
        Date:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 3:07 a.m.



............Maybe
> an hour or two at the local library,
> or a coffee shop, or somewhere public
> with few distractions, just to work
> on math, perhaps?

YUSSS!!!!

Thank you, THANK YOU, Lisa for the idea! I actually entertained this
possibility last summer when we became members at the Science Centre.
I thought it would be wonderful to actually do projects or other learning
right there. But then we got into a routine of going there taking
along some of his friends, or often just dropping him off alone when
they had something special going on.

But YESS, we will give it a try still this week!!!!!

Thanks again!

Sarah

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Sounds an awful lot...
      AUTHOR:  Grace
        DATE:  Wednesday, 17 March 1999, at 4:19 a.m.

 Response To:  Re: The bright side - absolutely
      Author:  dmx
        Date:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 8:52 a.m.



like what goes on in this house! Hurray!! I dont feel so alone.. Thanks
for sharing!

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: The bright side
      AUTHOR:  Cerelle
        DATE:  Wednesday, 17 March 1999, at 6:54 p.m.

 Response To:  Re: The bright side
      Author:  Sarah
        Date:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 11:47 p.m.



Hi, Sarah--

You know, for his age, your son sounds to me like he's doing just
fine! Actually, BETTER than fine. I've been thinking about your latest
post all day and wondering what it is specifically that you wish he
were doing more of.

I know a young man (he's 19 now) who could have been your son's twin
a few years ago. Computers were the only thing he seemed to care about...they
were his LIFE. *I* used to worry about him a little bit (this seems
pretty ironic to me, now), but his mom was really laid back, although
she did worry about his math learning (or lack of it) from time to
time. He refused to memorize the multiplication table, that sort of
thing.

Well. He is nearly out of college now (at 19!), on an all-expenses
paid scholarship, AND he's making 40K a year, doing (of course) computer
work for a nationwide resort chain. Math turned out to be one of his
greatest strengths, although he came to it rather "late" in the game.
But his computer know-how led him into calculus...eventually. Seriously,
I see SO many similarities between your description of your son and
the kid I know. When he was 12 and 13, he'd stay up all night long,
talking to his computer buds online. Then he'd sleep until 4 or 5
in the afternoon. Oh, it was scandalous! :-)

> He reads and writes at lightning speed,
> his spelling is quite impressive (every
> 2-3 three minutes he shouts: "Moooom,
> how do you spell...?")

Ah ha! Then doesn't this count as "academic learning"? If not, why
not?

> I would still want him to have
> a broader education...!

I didn't mean that he should settle for a prestigious job in place
of a higher education! But an awful lot of homeschooled teens (as
I'm sure you already know) have great jobs BEFORE they go to college.
And those great jobs help them get INTO college, because their resumes
look so good.

> But "education" is a magic
> word that makes him bolt when he hears
> it....

I understand. My oldest daughter (the only one who went to school
for any length of time) had certain buzzwords that I just had to learn
to avoid. "Lesson" was one. I had to be VERY CAREFUL to avoid ever
using that word! It must have brought up painful memories, because
she always responded emotionally to it. And anything having to do
with math was taboo for years. For some of these kids, bad school
experiences really do leave lasting scars. My daughter started homeschooling
in the middle of 2nd grade, but she STILL (at 20) feels bitter about
things that happened to her in 1st grade.

> Oh, no no no... thech books are
> very acceptable! And of course magazines,
> like "PC Accelerator"! He
> does regularly design "patches"
> for his favourite games, fluent in Java
> and Java script, he maintains the Links
> Page at the site of that TV show, etc...

Oh, Sarah, this is really, really impressive. Do you think that maybe
your thinking is being poisoned by family members who can't see the
value of all this? How many schooled kids his age can point to this
level of proficiency...in anything? He's obviously VERY advanced!
OK, maybe he can't recite Keats and Shelley, but look at everything
he CAN do. It's outstanding!

> His understanding is much better
> then his conversational abilities. All
> his earlier years he had to struggle
> getting his messages across. Words were
> lots of times "just at the tip
> of his tongue", but, oh, so elusive!
> So many times he just gave up in frustration!
> Now it's much better, but he still sounds
> younger then his actual age (except
> of course in computerese...) As for
> his processing problem, he still cannot
> follow long-winded texts, he just not
> long ago reached the stage when he finally
> "gets" the full storyline
> of movies.

I'm thinking it's wonderful that he has the freedom to excel in those
areas in which he has great ability. Of course we all want our children
to be "well rounded," but some gifted individuals are born specialists.
The lucky ones are those who are able to pursue their specialty from
an early age, because they often go on to be the great innovators.
So many homeschooling mothers complain that their children don't seem
to have any special interests. And then those moms whose children
DO have absorbing interests worry because their kids are so absorbed!
LOL! There's no pleasing us, is there?

> IFFF he agreed...! At this point
> the only acceptable activity is an occasional
> page in a penmanship exercise book and
> even then often he throws down the pencil
> saying "I don't want to do it,
> I suck at it!"

I thought about this a lot today, and I finally decided that I'm the
same way. Given a choice between something I'm good at and something
I DON'T think I'm very good at, I'll choose the first, any old time.
I can turn out a faultless loaf of bread, but my cakes always leave
a little something to be desired. Therefore, I don't even like to
attempt cakes. Part of it's my perfectionism, I realize. I don't like
to do something unless I can expect to do it really well. Is your
son like this? Does he expect a lot of himself? Would he rather not
try at all, than try and fail? If so, no wonder he'd rather stick
to the things he knows he's good at!

And if there's family pressure to succeed at academics, but he's "failed"
at them in the past (in school), that must make him feel especially
vulnerable. You've taken away a lot of that pressure by setting up
an unschooling environment for him, and it looks to me as if it has
really worked out well, so far. He's found something he loves, and
he's doing wonderfully with it. Let me repeat that he's still got
several years ahead of him before he has to worry about college. LOTS
can happen between now and then.

> [Here lies MY problem:
> sometimes resenting the "sacrifice"
> of sitting here waiting for him to come
> around.... Don't worry, I am working
> on the solution...:-)]

Ah, yes. From your point of view, the clock is ticking, and every
tick is costing you something, right? Meanwhile, he's lollygagging
about, taking his own sweet time to "come around." Well, consider
this: he may not EVER come around to the place you're thinking of.
But! He may wind up at a completely different place...that's even
better than the one you've imagined!

Giving our kids this kind of trust is hard, I know. It's just about
the hardest thing I've ever done. But you know, I'm always being pleasantly
surprised. ;-)

> But I regularly
> have to act as a shield when it comes
> to the scorn of our extended family
> and friends, who regularly point it
> out that B. is so much behind his age
> level requirements academically.

I'm wondering how he could be "so much behind" if he reads and writes
at lightning speed and can handle all these technical things so well.
What's the basis for their judgment? Does he really test that poorly?
Considering the schools had him in special ed, he seems to be doing
really well under your direction...surely your relatives can see that!

Good luck, Sarah. I hope Lisa's "coffee shop" solution works well
for you. My son and I have had a great time this year doing that very
thing -- schooling in coffee shops! Believe it or not, I have his
undivided attention when we're set up at a table in full view of the
public eye.

Cerelle


               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Library Censorship
      AUTHOR:  Jole
        DATE:  Thursday, 18 March 1999, at 1:26 p.m.



Today I took my children to library and ran into something I've never
encountered in my life! They refused to let my son check out a book
from the adult section, eventhough I was the one who suggested the
book, and even told them I had no problem with it! The policy is that
no child under 14 is allowed to check out materials from the adult
section.

I am outraged for a number of reasons. Firstly, it is my right as
a parent to decide what materials are appropriate for my child. Secondly,
since this is a public library, in effect, the government is deciding
what my child may check out! Has anyone else run into this with your
public library?

I did end up checking the book out on my card, but I find this practice
chilling. The local video stores have a way to limit what a minor
can rent without infringing on the rights of all families, so why
can't the library? I realize not all parents take an active interest
in their childrens lives but why should those of us who do be penalized
for it? Am I way off base on this one? I'd be interested in your thoughts
on this.

Jole

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Library Censorship
      AUTHOR:  Susan M
        DATE:  Thursday, 18 March 1999, at 2:47 p.m.

 Response To:  Library Censorship
      Author:  Jole
        Date:  Thursday, 18 March 1999, at 1:26 p.m.



> Firstly, it is my right as a parent
> to decide what materials are appropriate
> for my child. Secondly, since this is
> a public library, in effect, the government
> is deciding what my child may check
> out! Has anyone else run into this with
> your public library?

We have the opposite situation at our library. They just installed
dozens of Internet-capable computers, open for public use. Users can
access any site on the Internet, including pornography--there is no
filtering of any kind done. Many parents are upset, because their
children may be exposed to pornography if they happen to glance at
a computer as they walk by.

I guess the problem is how do you protect children without restricting
people's rights? I agree that if you are right there and approve,
they should let your child check it out. But to some, rules are rules,
I guess.

Susan M

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Verbal Abuse
      AUTHOR:  Rita
        DATE:  Thursday, 18 March 1999, at 7:58 p.m.

 Response To:  Re: Verbal Abuse
      Author:  Giovanna
        Date:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 9:15 p.m.



>

> Rita:

> I had to think over your post long
> and hard.

Thank you, Giovanna, for your reply. As a family, we've been discussing
this verbal behavior for over two years.

I do not parent middleschoolers
> yet but I do have a lot of experience
> with them. I teach them and I am very
> involved with this age group at my church.
>

> Put downs, sarcastic behavior is
> sadly very common with this age group.
> I don't have any clear cut answers for
> you except to say that we do not tolerate
> this type of behavior in our group.
> Period.

> Should you enforce this rule? I
> think it is a good idea.

> Let me tell you what happened in
> our group. We asked the kids themselves
> to establish the rules of conduct for
> our group. A lot of them agreed they
> did not want put downs and to be made
> fun of.

Yes, I know this is the desire of this group too. Remember the movie
"Mighty Ducks"? It was a youth hockey team where it didn't matter
if you were fat, thin, your religion, strong, weak, etc. the kids
worked it out so they were a team.

They agreed on the "punishment"
> and I was surprised at how strict and
> harsh their punishment suggestions were.
> Very simply... if anyone in the group
> started doing this they would be suspended
> for a week. After a repeated offense
> they would not be able to come back.

I'm going to suggest your idea of the warning from the organizational
leader and then suspension from the next activity. I think adopting
the Amendment of club suspension would have the effect of waving a
"red" flag in the front of two of the girls.

> I sensed that they wanted a group
> they could feel comfortable in. They
> wanted the freedom to be themselves
> without having to put up their guard,
> sort of speak.

> Has anyone broken the rules? Yes.
> They were quickly chastised by the group.
> Funny how "peer pressure"
> works both ways. It can be negative
> and it can be positive as well. It was
> very interesting to watch them protect
> each other.

> Maybe your rule will work better
> if it is something that the kids themselves
> agree upon. It all really depends on
> the mechanics of the group though. If
> there are "cliques" already
> established within your group then adult
> intervention might be necessary.

Giovanna

Thanks, Giovanna. Your suggestion is a good start!

Rita

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Library Censorship
      AUTHOR:  Kim ... from Canada
        DATE:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 7:33 a.m.

 Response To:  Re: Library Censorship
      Author:  Susan M
        Date:  Thursday, 18 March 1999, at 2:47 p.m.



>children may be exposed
> to pornography if they happen to glance
> at a computer as they walk by.

See- IMO- it is not anyone's RIGHT to look at that while in a public
library (or any other public place ) !

But anyway- Everything is computerized, now- I don't know why they
couldn't flag your son's card that you have signed something and are
aware- blah, blah. they are not responsible, blah...

You should call the head librarian and see WHY they have that policy.

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Library Censorship
      AUTHOR:  Susan M
        DATE:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 8:19 a.m.

 Response To:  Re: Library Censorship
      Author:  Kim ... from Canada
        Date:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 7:33 a.m.



> See- IMO- it is not anyone's RIGHT
> to look at that while in a public library
> (or any other public place ) !

I agree totally! And libraries in a neighboring town HAVE installed
filtering systems to keep pornography out. But around here, a lot
of people get very fired up at ANY perceived infringement on their
freedom of speech. (Sometime I want to do an in-depth study of what
the founding fathers meant by "freedom of speech"--I'm fairly sure
it did not include this type of thing! Next time we study US History...)

Susan M

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  This would really burn me up!
      AUTHOR:  Cerelle
        DATE:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 10:23 a.m.

 Response To:  Library Censorship
      Author:  Jole
        Date:  Thursday, 18 March 1999, at 1:26 p.m.



Jole,

I'm appalled! I would ask to see the library's mission statement.
If the mission statement doesn't say anything about denying children
access to information and ideas, I would ask the library's director
what his/her justification is for having put this policy into effect.
My hunch is that some parents may have complained recently because
their children brought home materials they deemed inappropriate, and
the director, to keep the heat off himself, put the new policy into
effect.

Policies like this one are usually up to the discretion of each individual
library. The ALA publishes guidelines, of course, but libraries are
often free to do their own thing. Our public library takes a very
determined stance in the other direction, and its mission statement
reflects that.

In fact, I once gave a previous director grief for mixing all the
juvenile nonfiction materials in with the adult materials. I wasn't
upset about my kids stumbling across "inappropriate" books, but I
WAS upset with him for making the juvenile books so much harder to
find! My short little guys couldn't even SEE the top shelves, let
alone reach the books on them. I liked it better when they could go
the juvenile nonfiction section and easily find things on their level.
(My complaints did nothing to change the policy, I'm afraid. The juvenile
and adult books are still mixed at our library.)

Well, Jole, if I were you, I'd make a big stink! ;-) Good luck!

Cerelle

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Verbal Abuse
      AUTHOR:  Cerelle
        DATE:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 10:46 a.m.

 Response To:  Re: Verbal Abuse
      Author:  Giovanna
        Date:  Tuesday, 16 March 1999, at 9:15 p.m.



You know, I've always believed that upholding the Golden Rule reduces
the necessity of having to have a lot of little, specific rules of
behavior. This is the attitude I've tried to encourage in our family,
and I don't see why it wouldn't work in a larger group, like a 4H
club.

I do like the idea of letting the kids help draw up the policy. It
is THEIR club, after all. We were part of a large 4H club for 6 years,
and we never had much of a problem with put-downs or verbal abuse
in our club, nor did we have anything (as far as I remember) in our
by-laws that specifically addressed this kind of behavior. The group
was pretty evenly mixed, boys and girls, but the parents were very
involved. I think anyone who got out of hand would have been immediately
reprimanded by an adult. Still, I just don't remember it being much
of a problem at any time.

Rita, I tend to agree with your statement that putting it into the
by-laws might be like "waving a red flag." If verbal abuse has been
a problem in the past, I'd want to discuss it openly with the parents
and children and get everyone's input on ways to put a stop to it.
Remind everyone of the Golden Rule, too! It's amazing how many in
the younger generation have never heard of it. :-(

Cerelle

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  A little library story
      AUTHOR:  Glenda
        DATE:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 11:55 a.m.

 Response To:  Re: Library Censorship
      Author:  Susan M
        Date:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 8:19 a.m.



Our little library, while willing to accept the wishes of the parents,
certainly sends mixed messages. When my oldest (and eerily gifted)
son was in 2nd grade, he read all of the Classics. He was trying to
check out Animal Farm and the librarian kept insisting he should go
into the "little sprouts" section if he wanted to read books on farm
animals! Even at that tender age, my son found humor in that! He was
very calm and patient and then began quoting from George Orwell's
1984...well, I guess THAT she understood for she let him check out
the book he wanted. Unfortunately, the same library has free and open
access to the internet.,..porno and all!

> Susan M

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  The Golden RULEr
      AUTHOR:  Glenda
        DATE:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 12:11 p.m.

 Response To:  Verbal Abuse
      Author:  Rita
        Date:  Monday, 15 March 1999, at 10:28 a.m.



HI! I can speak from Cub?Boy Scouting experience...it might help!
BSA puts out a book called ETHICS in SCOUTING. I had for years harped
on kindness and kind words, but as the kids got older, they were more
difficult to convince! ETHICS in SCOUTING had several tips. One method
we used was to make a HUGE ruler out of thin plywood. We painted it
to look like a ruler, but in Gold and called it the GOLDEN RULEr.
(get it?) On each of the lines where a inch mark would be, we painted
a "rule". But instead of harping on negative such as NO SWEARING,
we wrote A SCOUT USES MATURE WORDS TO EXPRESS HIMSELF. The Scouts
made up the guidelines and they held each other to it. I also often
reminded them they they were brothers in Scouting and that as a team,
they had to respect each other.We also appointed one Scout each month
to be THE GOLDEN "RULER" (get it? :-)) and he was in charge of gentle
reminders and was reponsible for collecting dues, sweeping, etc. This
KINGLY appointment was rotated so all Scouts had a chance. It worked
most of the time , but like anything else, I suppose, it took lots
of reinforcement and reminding until it became second nature. They
are lucky to have you and your concern and effort! :-)

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  I did make a big stink and the library called me back
today....
      AUTHOR:  Jole
        DATE:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 2:05 p.m.

 Response To:  This would really burn me up!
      Author:  Cerelle
        Date:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 10:23 a.m.



I was told that I COULD sign a waver and my son could check out any
materials. This was not the song I got yesterdy though! I told them
I thought their policy was a little backward. If they wanted to be
sure parents knew what materials their children were checking out,
the parents should be the ones to ask for the restrictions. To me
it is too akin to a nanny state to have blanket restrictions. Because
SOME parents won't take the time to be involved with their children,
ALL children are restricted.

I really think this issue is one more example of parental rights being
usurped. Maybe I'm wrong, and this really is the type of world folks
want to live in. I don't however, and I will continue to make my voice
heard! Thanks for the support!

Jole

P.S. I forgot to ask them yesterday if they had filters on their computers
to restrict minors from accessing adult material. Somehow I doubt
they do. I think there is much more objectional materil on the internet
than my son would ever find in the library!


               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: A little library story
      AUTHOR:  Jody C.
        DATE:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 3:01 p.m.

 Response To:  A little library story
      Author:  Glenda
        Date:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 11:55 a.m.



> Our little library is wonderful! Because we homeschool, we use the
public library all the time and are "well known" for checking out
baskets of books (all a plus for library circulation).

Our librarian often times asks me what books I'd like to see ordered
because there are now more and more homeschoolers using the library.
They are very gracious and helpful in helping us SELECT books from
the adult section to go with our unit studies and such.

About the internet...we have that too, but it is posted right above
the modules..."No chat rooms, porno, etc" Actually, I think they have
some kind of block on the internet. Of course, small town stuff....you
wouldn't want the librarian calling your mom (and she'd know her)!!

I agree with someone who suggested talking to the head librarian...if
they understand that you are directing your children's education with
the library, they may be more than accomodating.

Our library even gives us extra time to use videos for educational
purposes because they allow it for the public school teachers, they
allow the same rules to apply to us hsers.

Sorry your story is so rotten.

Jody

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Library Censorship
      AUTHOR:  Laura in SC
        DATE:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 4:25 p.m.

 Response To:  Library Censorship
      Author:  Jole
        Date:  Thursday, 18 March 1999, at 1:26 p.m.



Wow! I'd be angry, too. My son is only 9yo, but we use lots of books
from the adult floor.

I used to run into a different problem when we lived in CA. I was
not allowed to have any information about what my child checked out
of the library. For instance, if I wanted to check to make sure he
didn't have any outstanding items on his card, they would tell him,
but not me. Actually, they would tell me if he was standing right
there and said it was okay.

Once the catalog went online and we could check our personal accounts
ourselves, it wasn't an issue any more. I created the PIN for the
account, so I could check myself.

One thing our SC library does that I like is that children must be
accompanied by an adult (they don't check to make sure it's a parent
or guardian) when they are on a computer terminal that has internet
access. In CA, the library policy was that that would be censorship,
so anyone in the library had full internet access.

Laura

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Looking for info on Clonlara for high school.
      AUTHOR:  Judy in TN
        DATE:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 6:06 p.m.



Please e-mail me -- We're considering it for the 9th grade in the
fall and would like to know if anyone has advice about using the school.
Thanks.

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  what kind of in depth material CAN the children get
      AUTHOR:  Kysa
        DATE:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 6:34 p.m.

 Response To:  I did make a big stink and the library called me back
today....
      Author:  Jole
        Date:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 2:05 p.m.



I have to believe that there is a lot of indepth factual material
that children should be using for school reports that is in the adult
section. We have a wonderful children's section in our library, but
most children check out books from the adult section for school reports
by the time they are 11-12. I know because I watch them. There is
WONDERFUL history information, biographies, even the recipe cooks
are in the adult section. I helped a boy from my church get information
about Walt Disney for a school report a few months ago. Yes, we checked
out one book from the adult section. If the library has a policy like
that it makes me wonder what kind of books they really carry in their
adult section!

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Looking for info on Clonlara for high school.
      AUTHOR:  Debbie K.
        DATE:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 6:43 p.m.

 Response To:  Looking for info on Clonlara for high school.
      Author:  Judy in TN
        Date:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 6:06 p.m.



> Please e-mail me -- We're considering
> it for the 9th grade in the fall and
> would like to know if anyone has advice
> about using the school. Thanks.

I went to their conference last year, and I plan on going again this
year and take my husband. My boys are only 9 yo, and we currently
do not use Clonlara, but right now I plan on going with Clonlara when
they go into 9th grade.

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Library Censorship
      AUTHOR:  Liz
        DATE:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 8:47 p.m.

 Response To:  Library Censorship
      Author:  Jole
        Date:  Thursday, 18 March 1999, at 1:26 p.m.



Ir would bother me, and I would probably behave much the way you did,
Joel. I prefer to decide what my daughter can and cannot read. I get
very defensive when I feel that anyone is trying to replace me in
making the decisions for my daughter. No one knows her or loves her
like I do. Liz G
> Today I took my children to library
> and ran into something I've never encountered
> in my life! They refused to let my son
> check out a book from the adult section,
> eventhough I was the one who suggested
> the book, and even told them I had no
> problem with it! The policy is that
> no child under 14 is allowed to check
> out materials from the adult section.
>

> I am outraged for a number of reasons.
> Firstly, it is my right as a parent
> to decide what materials are appropriate
> for my child. Secondly, since this is
> a public library, in effect, the government
> is deciding what my child may check
> out! Has anyone else run into this with
> your public library?

> I did end up checking the book
> out on my card, but I find this practice
> chilling. The local video stores have
> a way to limit what a minor can rent
> without infringing on the rights of
> all families, so why can't the library?
> I realize not all parents take an active
> interest in their childrens lives but
> why should those of us who do be penalized
> for it? Am I way off base on this one?
> I'd be interested in your thoughts on
> this.

> Jole

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Ideas for Teen Homeschool Groups
      AUTHOR:  Pam
        DATE:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 9:56 p.m.



We are starting activities specifically for teens (middle school/high
schoolers) in our local homeschool organization. I would love to hear
ideas about what your groups do. We plan to have a once a month activity
and a once a month volunteer day. What activity ideas do you have
or any other ideas, like a photography club, etc. Thanks.

--Pam

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Ideas for Teen Homeschool Groups
      AUTHOR:  Ann in NC
        DATE:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 10:56 p.m.

 Response To:  Ideas for Teen Homeschool Groups
      Author:  Pam
        Date:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 9:56 p.m.



> We have only a few teens in our group -- actually, my two math students
did a survey and found that if we included 11 year olds and up, we
would have 15 kids...but with a big range of ages, three 16/17 year
olds, and then the rest 11, 12, and 13. Sigh...wish we had a bigger
group. It's the main complaint with my two teens.

Anyway, we have gotten a few activities going for these kids. Some
are working on a yearbook, some are involved in a 'investment club'
(that I'm running, with imaginary $$), and my daughter is producing
her play and using all the older kids in it. All of these activites
take place during our weekly meeting.

We've also started bowling once a month and roller skating once a
month on the 1st and 3rd Fridays. We only get a few kids for these,
but they seem to have fun.

Let us know what you come up with....

Ann


               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Looking for info on Clonlara for high school.
      AUTHOR:  Ann in NC
        DATE:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 11:02 p.m.

 Response To:  Looking for info on Clonlara for high school.
      Author:  Judy in TN
        Date:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 6:06 p.m.



>We started using Clonlara when my eldest started 9th grade, and I've
been very pleased. The teachers I've worked with have been great,
and the administration was so helpful when it came time for college
applications.

My second daughter is now a sophomore, and we are still with Clonlara
and intend to stick with them for the next two kids after her!

Any specific questions?

Ann

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Library Censorship
      AUTHOR:  Lisa Torres
        DATE:  Saturday, 20 March 1999, at 3:50 a.m.

 Response To:  Library Censorship
      Author:  Jole
        Date:  Thursday, 18 March 1999, at 1:26 p.m.



I remember when I was a kid, maybe 12, I wanted to take out some James
Joyce (Ulysses). The librarian wouldn't let me, and my mother had
to check the book out. The librarian was horrified: "There are sex
scenes in the book, you know." My mother took the view that either
I wasn't old enough to understand so it wouldn't matter, or I was
old enough to understand so what's the problem?

However, in our little town, many of the classics are in the "young
adult" section. Look in vain in the adult section for Moby Dick, or
The Scarlet Letter! They are in the young adult section (read: older
kids). Some of the classics there will rarely be read for pleasure
by kids (ever really try to read The Last of the Mohicans? pretty
turgid prose, not too accessible to junior high school boys!) I wish
they would put some of this stuff in one place, instead of trying
to segregate by age...

>
>

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Looking for info on Clonlara for high school.
      AUTHOR:  Phyllis
        DATE:  Saturday, 20 March 1999, at 5:05 a.m.

 Response To:  Re: Looking for info on Clonlara for high school.
      Author:  Ann in NC
        Date:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 11:02 p.m.



We have been using Clonlara for the past 5 years now. It's a bit pricey
(over $500) for the first child, but then the second one is only $15.
What a deal, eh? They have the best hs conferences that I have ever
attended! They provide you with a curriculum, a support teacher, a
newsletter, and a student ID card, which is very helpful when shopping
at B&N or Border's books (you get a 20% disc.on educational purchases.)
They have a website which might offer you more info, and if you call
them they might even put you in touch with someone near you who is
using Clonlara. Hey, that might even be ME! The thing I like most
about Clonlara is that it allows us to educate our children the way
we like.


               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Looking for info on Clonlara for high school.
      AUTHOR:  Kathy in CT
        DATE:  Saturday, 20 March 1999, at 5:32 a.m.

 Response To:  Re: Looking for info on Clonlara for high school.
      Author:  Ann in NC
        Date:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 11:02 p.m.



Dear Ann,

Are your other children enrolled in Clonlara now, also? My son is
currently a 7th grader. Would there be any advantage to enrolling
him in Clonlara next year or, should we just wait until 9th grade?

Thanks,

Kathy

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Looking for info on Clonlara for high school.
      AUTHOR:  Janet in NM
        DATE:  Saturday, 20 March 1999, at 6:17 a.m.

 Response To:  Re: Looking for info on Clonlara for high school.
      Author:  Phyllis
        Date:  Saturday, 20 March 1999, at 5:05 a.m.



The thing
> I like most about Clonlara is that it
> allows us to educate our children the
> way we like.

We can educate our children the way we like WITHOUT Clonlara, and
save $500 a year. What, other than an accredited diploma would make
it worth that? I am not completely satisfied with any other accredited
high school program, but want to use one to avoid any possible hassle
for my kids when college time comes. I realize that I could be completely
satisfied with Clonlara, but need to justify the price of it on top
of the books that we would have to buy ourselves anyway.

What, exactly, is the curriculum like that Clonlara provides? How
useful, really, is it? Are there lesson plans, suggested schedules?

Janet


               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Did we have the same mother?
      AUTHOR:  Jole
        DATE:  Saturday, 20 March 1999, at 6:34 a.m.

 Response To:  Re: Library Censorship
      Author:  Lisa Torres
        Date:  Saturday, 20 March 1999, at 3:50 a.m.



That was always my mother's attitude too, and the one I try to take
with my kids ( I'm not always successful, because I tend to be a little
more conservative than my mother). I do, however, trust my children
to come to me when they don't understand something or they are confused
so we can talk about it. Wonderful learning takes place in those instances
IMHO.


               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Why I use Clonlara
      AUTHOR:  Kysa
        DATE:  Saturday, 20 March 1999, at 6:45 a.m.

 Response To:  Looking for info on Clonlara for high school.
      Author:  Judy in TN
        Date:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 6:06 p.m.



At first, I enrolled my daughter in Clonlara because I have a sister-in-law
that is a professor in the education department here. As you can imagine,
she DOES NOT think it is possible for parents to choose their own
curriculum and keep track of their own records. Because I live next
door to my mother-in-law (and she always belives the experts), I enrolled
Skye to keep peace in the family. I have enjoyed the e-letters back
and forth with our teacher. She ofiten has a perspective I didn't
think of. Is it worth the $490. Well, we save $100 every six months
on car insurance because Clonlara sends a transcript to the company.
And it does save hassle at places of higher ed. In my state, a home
school diploma written by the parents is NOT acceptable at the vocational
schools. I should know becuase I have worked with other teens trying
to get in. Clonlara will help there if my daughter goes that route.
Is an accredited diploma necessay. Of course not. But as the unofficial
guidance counselor for our home school support group, it will save
me a lot of hassles I am already tired of with other peoples children.

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Other kids
      AUTHOR:  Ann in NC
        DATE:  Saturday, 20 March 1999, at 7:04 a.m.

 Response To:  Re: Looking for info on Clonlara for high school.
      Author:  Kathy in CT
        Date:  Saturday, 20 March 1999, at 5:32 a.m.



> Are your other children enrolled
> in Clonlara now, also? My son is currently
> a 7th grader. Would there be any advantage
> to enrolling him in Clonlara next year
> or, should we just wait until 9th grade?
>

Kathy, this is always a difficult question for me to answer. We didn't
join Clonlara until my eldest was high school age....we didn't have
any problems homeschooling in NJ, and I hadn't even thought of an
umbrella school.

But, yes, my other children are enrolled in Clonlara, and I make use
of the teacher's expertise in relation to the younger kids. I truly
enjoy having another person to share my ups and downs of homeschooling
with. I can complain and be sure that she won't tell me to put the
kids back in school, and I can brag about my kids and know that she,
also, is thrilled at what they've accomplished. I have asked questions
and received interesting ideas that I might not have thought of.

I am so happy that there is an organization like Clonlara, and I want
to support them. So I hate to tell you to wait another year. The advantages
of using Clonlara early are that you'll get accustomed to the system.
I know we missed many credit hours because it took us a year to really
adjust to counting the hours. But I'm sure most people don't have
such a tough time. And it didn't matter in the long run, because Laura
had many more credits than she needed in the end. So, if you join
next year, you'll have that advantage, plus the fun of having a support
teacher. But it does cost money...

Ann


               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  I am coordinator for our Teen Homeschool Group
      AUTHOR:  Kysa
        DATE:  Saturday, 20 March 1999, at 7:06 a.m.

 Response To:  Ideas for Teen Homeschool Groups
      Author:  Pam
        Date:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 9:56 p.m.



We have a large home school support group (about 35 families) There
are 22 teens (12-18) and usually about 18 participate in activities.

Rule #1: only plan activities that at least one or teens suggest.
If it is their idea, they will make it work.

Our main activity this year is chem labs at my house while the younger
(5-11) age group meets at a local church. This is because so many
have younger siblings, and sometimes the teen is the taxi driver.

We also have field trips for the older kids 2-3 times per year. Although
I may suggest places, these are things that a majority of the teens
decided they wanted to see. Last year, I directed a play. We did not
have enough time to practice (too many days of snow and had to cancel).
This year I said I would not do that. So.... one of the teens decided
she would. They will perform a 10 minute skit at our performing arts
evening. They practiced yesterday and it was good!

Other years we have had a spanish club and a journalism club.

Mostly, though, the kids sit around and talk after chemistry, or go
outside and throw snowballs! Mostly they just want to see their firneds.

We also go ice skating and bowling, but that is with all age groups
Kysa

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Thanks for the reports!
      AUTHOR:  Judy in TN
        DATE:  Saturday, 20 March 1999, at 9:14 a.m.

 Response To:  Looking for info on Clonlara for high school.
      Author:  Judy in TN
        Date:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 6:06 p.m.



It's all been very positive. The only problem anyone reported was
an error on a transcript and that was very quickly corrected. I have
calls in to a couple universities near here to see what they say about
that accreditation agency (different from the regional ones because
it's a private school I guess). I like the fact that they offer suggestions,
but we'd pick the books. I don't think it's necessary to spend $500
a year, but to me it would be worth it to have the support system
there and the accredited diploma, transcipt, etc. It sounds like a
lot, but I'm thinking of it per month and comparing it to the cost
of cable, etc. I think my kid would enjoy taking a class or two on
line also. Thanks again to all who responded.

> Please e-mail me -- We're considering
> it for the 9th grade in the fall and
> would like to know if anyone has advice
> about using the school. Thanks.

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Why?
      AUTHOR:  Jody C.
        DATE:  Saturday, 20 March 1999, at 3:57 p.m.

 Response To:  Re: Looking for info on Clonlara for high school.
      Author:  Janet in NM
        Date:  Saturday, 20 March 1999, at 6:17 a.m.



>

> The thing

> We can educate our children the
> way we like WITHOUT Clonlara, and save
> $500 a year. What, other than an accredited
> diploma would make it worth that?

My question exactly! If you can choose how you educate your kids WITH
Clonlara, why not without. Are the just a record keeper?

Jody

>

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Motivation
      AUTHOR:  Kelly S.
        DATE:  Saturday, 20 March 1999, at 4:47 p.m.

 Response To:  Re: Motivation
      Author:  LaurieM
        Date:  Monday, 15 March 1999, at 10:56 p.m.



Hi--I remember reading something in the library about the underachieving
children in families of motivated, intellectual, hard-working parents.
I can't do the topic justice, but you might want to look up the subject
of gifted underachievers at your local library. Or maybe someone knows
of a site on the net. Hope this helps. Kelly


               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: A little library story
      AUTHOR:  Judy in TN
        DATE:  Saturday, 20 March 1999, at 7:26 p.m.

 Response To:  A little library story
      Author:  Glenda
        Date:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 11:55 a.m.



When our son was in kindergarten, he flatly refused to even look in
the kid's section at the library. He went straight to all the books
on robots. I would plead with him, show him all the beautiful illustrations,
but no dice. He loves to read and we've never had a problem with him
checking out any books. I think I would be a little stunned if a librarian
screened his selections based on his age.

> Our little library, while willing
> to accept the wishes of the parents,
> certainly sends mixed messages. When
> my oldest (and eerily gifted) son was
> in 2nd grade, he read all of the Classics.
> He was trying to check out Animal Farm
> and the librarian kept insisting he
> should go into the "little sprouts"
> section if he wanted to read books on
> farm animals! Even at that tender age,
> my son found humor in that! He was very
> calm and patient and then began quoting
> from George Orwell's 1984...well, I
> guess THAT she understood for she let
> him check out the book he wanted. Unfortunately,
> the same library has free and open access
> to the internet.,..porno and all!

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: About accreditation: a funny story
      AUTHOR:  Lisa Torres
        DATE:  Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 2:51 a.m.

 Response To:  Thanks for the reports!
      Author:  Judy in TN
        Date:  Saturday, 20 March 1999, at 9:14 a.m.



We withdrew our son from the local school district when he was in
the middle of tenth grade. Our thought was that he might want to return
to ps at some future date, so we inquired from the school about what
records we should keep to make this possible. We were told that nothing
we did would be acceptable to them, and that he would have to repeat
10th grade if he returned. Imagine my surprise, then, to see that
Clonlara Compuhigh was giving a presentation at this very high school
this year! We are enrolled in Clonlara, so I thought I'd attend. The
superintendent of our school district was there. She told me that
at the beginning of the school year a student had enrolled who had
a Clonlara transcript. The school had not wanted to accept any of
the credits (just what I had been told), but the state dept. of ed.
told them to go ahead--that Clonlara is very well-respected and there
should be no problems with this. So now, I suppose, there wouldn't
be a problem if he wanted to return to ps for his senior year! But,
of course, he emphatically doesn't want to...

By the way, with a boy, you might save a lot more than $100 every
6 months on car insurance if they can get the good student discount...

Another bit of info: Clonlara has a list of colleges which have accepted
their graduates. It is long and varied, including Ivy League schools
(actually pretty hs friendly), state universities, small private schools,
votechs, etc.

>

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  By the way, Clonlara's tuition is currently $550 for
one student, $575 for two. I still want to know what, besides accreditation,
makes it worth this fee.
      AUTHOR:  Janet in NM
        DATE:  Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 4:41 a.m.

 Response To:  Re: About accreditation: a funny story
      Author:  Lisa Torres
        Date:  Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 2:51 a.m.



You know, the list of colleges that have accepted students who have
used ANY homeschool program - accredited or unaccredited - is long,
and includes Ivy League and other distinguished institutions. In fact,
I don't know personally of any college that just plain won't accept
a homeschooled student. These days, though, the student is often expected
to pass several SAT II tests before they can even apply. I wonder
if Clonlara's accreditation is such that their diploma would be accepted
at any institution without prejudice.

Janet

> We withdrew our son from the local
> school district when he was in the middle
> of tenth grade. Our thought was that
> he might want to return to ps at some
> future date, so we inquired from the
> school about what records we should
> keep to make this possible. We were
> told that nothing we did would be acceptable
> to them, and that he would have to repeat
> 10th grade if he returned. Imagine my
> surprise, then, to see that Clonlara
> Compuhigh was giving a presentation
> at this very high school this year!
> We are enrolled in Clonlara, so I thought
> I'd attend. The superintendent of our
> school district was there. She told
> me that at the beginning of the school
> year a student had enrolled who had
> a Clonlara transcript. The school had
> not wanted to accept any of the credits
> (just what I had been told), but the
> state dept. of ed. told them to go ahead--that
> Clonlara is very well-respected and
> there should be no problems with this.
> So now, I suppose, there wouldn't be
> a problem if he wanted to return to
> ps for his senior year! But, of course,
> he emphatically doesn't want to...

> By the way, with a boy, you might
> save a lot more than $100 every 6 months
> on car insurance if they can get the
> good student discount...

> Another bit of info: Clonlara has
> a list of colleges which have accepted
> their graduates. It is long and varied,
> including Ivy League schools (actually
> pretty hs friendly), state universities,
> small private schools, votechs, etc.
>

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: By the way, Clonlara's tuition is currently $550
for one student, $575 for two. I still want to know what, besides
accreditation, makes it worth this fee.
      AUTHOR:  Judy in TN
        DATE:  Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 7:01 a.m.

 Response To:  By the way, Clonlara's tuition is currently $550 for
one student, $575 for two. I still want to know what, besides accreditation,
makes it worth this fee.
      Author:  Janet in NM
        Date:  Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 4:41 a.m.



I have a call in to Vanderbilt and another local university to ask
that. I know the fee sounds like a lot, but if you break it down over
a four year program, it sounds a lot more reasonable. A couple people
have told me that they got a break on car insurance for their children,
too, for a good grade discount. Don't misunderstand me. I don't think
going with a program like Clonlara is necessary at all. It just was
interesting to us for online classes, and mainly the accreditation.
I'm still checking on that part of it. I know it isn't necessary to
use them though, and you can still give your child a GREAT education
on your own.

> You know, the list of colleges
> that have accepted students who have
> used ANY homeschool program - accredited
> or unaccredited - is long, and includes
> Ivy League and other distinguished institutions.
> In fact, I don't know personally of
> any college that just plain won't accept
> a homeschooled student. These days,
> though, the student is often expected
> to pass several SAT II tests before
> they can even apply. I wonder if Clonlara's
> accreditation is such that their diploma
> would be accepted at any institution
> without prejudice.

> Janet

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: About accreditation: a funny story
      AUTHOR:  Judy in TN
        DATE:  Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 7:10 a.m.

 Response To:  Re: About accreditation: a funny story
      Author:  Lisa Torres
        Date:  Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 2:51 a.m.



At first I thought maybe you were living next door, but Clonlara hasn't
graced our local high school---and I doubt that will happen any time
soon. The insurance discount is something I hadn't thought about till
a couple people mentioned it. That could offset a lot of the cost
by itself.

> We withdrew our son from the local
> school district when he was in the middle
> of tenth grade. Our thought was that
> he might want to return to ps at some
> future date, so we inquired from the
> school about what records we should
> keep to make this possible. We were
> told that nothing we did would be acceptable
> to them, and that he would have to repeat
> 10th grade if he returned. Imagine my
> surprise, then, to see that Clonlara
> Compuhigh was giving a presentation
> at this very high school this year!
> We are enrolled in Clonlara, so I thought
> I'd attend. The superintendent of our
> school district was there. She told
> me that at the beginning of the school
> year a student had enrolled who had
> a Clonlara transcript. The school had
> not wanted to accept any of the credits
> (just what I had been told), but the
> state dept. of ed. told them to go ahead--that
> Clonlara is very well-respected and
> there should be no problems with this.
> So now, I suppose, there wouldn't be
> a problem if he wanted to return to
> ps for his senior year! But, of course,
> he emphatically doesn't want to...

> By the way, with a boy, you might
> save a lot more than $100 every 6 months
> on car insurance if they can get the
> good student discount...

> Another bit of info: Clonlara has
> a list of colleges which have accepted
> their graduates. It is long and varied,
> including Ivy League schools (actually
> pretty hs friendly), state universities,
> small private schools, votechs, etc.
>

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: The classics
      AUTHOR:  Kim ... from Canada
        DATE:  Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 8:10 a.m.

 Response To:  Did we have the same mother?
      Author:  Jole
        Date:  Saturday, 20 March 1999, at 6:34 a.m.



I thought that they didn't have any here; took be a couple years to
figure out that they are IN the childrens' section... if we have them.

My library is actually good- my only complaint is that I am the BIG
library in my system and if we don't have it- I can't get it !

8-/

There are only 2 Internet computers and no one is ever on them...
You have to be taking internet classes or... some other restrictive
thing... so we haven't had any problems like that ! I would make such
a SCENE, though, that would be that last time that person would try
looking at porn in the library ! ;-)

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Insurance discounts
      AUTHOR:  Cerelle
        DATE:  Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 8:41 a.m.

 Response To:  Re: By the way, Clonlara's tuition is currently $550
for one student, $575 for two. I still want to know what, besides
accreditation, makes it worth this fee.
      Author:  Judy in TN
        Date:  Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 7:01 a.m.



Our auto-insurance carrier gives us a good-student discount for our
16-year-old. All I have to do is give them a letter (from me) saying
she's doing excellent work in all her subjects. They know I don't
even give grades! Ha!

I think what Clonlara gives families for the tuition fee is probably
reassurance, peace of mind, guidance, and advice. If you have that
kind of money to spend, and you feel you'd like to have all of the
above, well, what's wrong with that? And I can see how it would be
a definite advantage if you foresaw your child wanting to return to
public high school after a period of homeschooling.

Cerelle

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Insurance discounts
      AUTHOR:  Janet in NM
        DATE:  Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 10:39 a.m.

 Response To:  Insurance discounts
      Author:  Cerelle
        Date:  Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 8:41 a.m.



I agree, there's nothing wrong with that, and I hope I haven't given
the impression that I think there is. I guess I'm just digging for
some sort of concrete details from someone who uses the program and
is glad they do.

Janet


               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Ideas for Teen Homeschool Groups
      AUTHOR:  debbie
        DATE:  Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 1:35 p.m.

 Response To:  Ideas for Teen Homeschool Groups
      Author:  Pam
        Date:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 9:56 p.m.



>This year we have started a book study with our teens. Each month
they read a book about a specific missionary. We then meet and discuss
the book, the missionary, and the country they worked in. The kids
all bring 10 questions about the book, the country, etc. They group
up in teams to answer the questions. We usually bring food from the
country and have a potluck. We also try to do some related activity-
such as volunteering for the Salvation Army after studying William
and Katherine Booth. When studying a missionary from China, we brought
in Chinese carry out for lunch. The kids have seemed to enjoy this.

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Pitfalls of classes at the local school?
      AUTHOR:  dmx
        DATE:  Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 6:24 p.m.



In a couple of weeks, my 13 yo will be starting to take a class at
the local middle school. It's a class called "tech" where they build
models of a house; are given supplies & try to construct a contraption
to meet some specific goal, etc. It will last for the 9-week grading
period.

There are several reasons he's going for the class. Mostly, he wants
to be around more kids for more hours per week. The school is encouraging
him to do 1/2 day, but I think he's decided on just the one class.
Do those of you who have kids taking classes have any advice, warnings
or comments?

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Pitfalls of classes at the local school?
      AUTHOR:  Susan M
        DATE:  Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 11:06 p.m.

 Response To:  Pitfalls of classes at the local school?
      Author:  dmx
        Date:  Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 6:24 p.m.



Do those
> of you who have kids taking classes
> have any advice, warnings or comments?
>

Both of my sons are taking some classes at the local school, one at
middle school and the other at high school. I think a lot depends
upon the school and the administration's attitude toward homeschoolers.
Where mine go, the attitude is very positive, and the staff is quite
helpful. The only problem we sometimes have (at the middle school)
is that they sometimes forget to inform us of a change of schedule,
and occasionally my son has gone in at the usual time only to discover
that they are on a p.m. assembly schedule that day, and that his class
is already over.

One thing that has bothered both of my boys is the number of kids
in the classes that just do not care. Since my boys have chosen to
attend that class and want to learn, they have trouble accepting that
some kids are only there because they have to be, and that they would
rather disrupt class than learn in it.

My boys have enjoyed taking classes that they would not be able to
do as well as home (band, computer programming, lab science) and enjoy
the chance to meet other kids. However, they are glad to do most of
their learning at home. I think their experience in school classes
has led them to appreciate the freedom and flexibility of homeschooling
even more.

Good luck to your son in his class--it sounds like it could be a lot
of fun!

Susan M

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Games for High School?
      AUTHOR:  Barbara C.
        DATE:  Tuesday, 23 March 1999, at 9:24 a.m.



I have been homeschooling for about two years now. My dd (6th grade)
is a hands-on learner and we often use games, flashcards, etc. to
review or learn new material--especially vocabulary words.

Is this something that we should leave behind when we begin 7th, 8th,
and 9th grades? If so, what should we do instead?

TIA! Barbara C.

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  No more SAT's?
      AUTHOR:  Amber
        DATE:  Tuesday, 23 March 1999, at 12:02 p.m.



Have heard a rumor that SAT's will no longer be given within a couple
of years. Is this true? If so, what will replace it?

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Can I really see this through?
      AUTHOR:  Amber
        DATE:  Tuesday, 23 March 1999, at 12:15 p.m.



My oldest is 13 and I'm having real anxiety about the next few years.
Up to now, our pace has been relaxed and pleasant. Progress has been
made and she is a lovely young lady inside and out. Now I am faced
with preparing her for the possiblity of college. Now what we do "counts"
and I am afraid of not doing the job "thoroughly" enough for her to
be able to enter into the college of her choice. She reads alot, so
much, in fact, that the student knows more than her teacher! But she's
not a math whiz nor will she be finding the cure for cancer anytime
soon. But she *can* make change for a dollar, run a thriving yard
sale, plant a productive garden, and raise and tame rabbits. Doesn't
this "count," too? Can you tell that I've stressed over this?  Wise
words would be appreciated.

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  If it works, do it!
      AUTHOR:  Kysa
        DATE:  Tuesday, 23 March 1999, at 12:20 p.m.

 Response To:  Games for High School?
      Author:  Barbara C.
        Date:  Tuesday, 23 March 1999, at 9:24 a.m.



My college age son still makes flashcards to help himself study. My
daughter has to do language (Latin) out loud to learn it. My favorite
"spelling" help is to play scrabble. Anything that works is useful.
The nice thing about homeschooling is that you don't have to worry
about how the rest of the kids will react to your study methods. Obviously,
my daughter would have to limit her Latin studying in a public school.
I don't care how much she talks to herself to learn--I only care about
the end result. Now is a good time for your daughter to experiment
with what methods work best for her. She will be way ahead of her
peers for the rest of her life if she knows how best to aquire the
information she needs to know.

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Can I really see this through?
      AUTHOR:  Jody C.
        DATE:  Tuesday, 23 March 1999, at 3:31 p.m.

 Response To:  Can I really see this through?
      Author:  Amber
        Date:  Tuesday, 23 March 1999, at 12:15 p.m.



> My oldest is 13 and I'm having
> real anxiety about the next few years.
> Up to now, our pace has been relaxed
> and pleasant.

I'm like you and have remained fairly "relaxed and pleasant" about
our high school homeschool too. I'm finding subjects that HE is interested
in and letting him forge ahead! We are working in algebra (but that's
not too high pressure) and in sciences I'm finding lots of options.

Progress has been made
> and she is a lovely young lady inside
> and out.

To me, THIS IS the TRUE goal!!

Now I am faced with preparing
> her for the possiblity of college. Now
> what we do "counts" and I
> am afraid of not doing the job "thoroughly"
> enough for her to be able to enter into
> the college of her choice.

Does she want to attend college? Find out what subjects she needs
to be prepared for her chosen course of study. Does she even know
yet what course of study she'd like? Not many do. What about apprenticeship
in an area she's interested in? A part-time job with the vet? Some
kids find out they don't want to do the profession they had in mind
once they get their feet wet.

I KNOW you can do it. Just more of the same. Relax and enjoy learning
some more.

Jody


               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Thanks . . .
      AUTHOR:  dmx
        DATE:  Tuesday, 23 March 1999, at 4:26 p.m.

 Response To:  Re: Pitfalls of classes at the local school?
      Author:  Susan M
        Date:  Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 11:06 p.m.



Thanks. Your experience is reassuring. I have a secret fear that my
son will love school and want to go full time. Too many of his homeschooling
buddies have moved away or are going to school for the junior high/high
school years. We are making an effort to stay involved in other activities,
but we haven't found enough things that fit his interests. Anyway,
your sons' reactions to school are interesting. I'll be curious to
see how mine views it. He's been in schools some (his aunt is a vice-principal),
but he's never taken classes. We'll see. . . Thanks for your response.

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  The pre-high school panic
      AUTHOR:  Joyce U.
        DATE:  Tuesday, 23 March 1999, at 5:55 p.m.

 Response To:  Can I really see this through?
      Author:  Amber
        Date:  Tuesday, 23 March 1999, at 12:15 p.m.



Amber,

Three years ago, when my oldest dd was 13, I hit the exact same place
on the map that you are at now! I am so glad that we took the plunge
because, the water is great!!!

We are fairly relaxed also. I don't emphasize what some people may,
academically, and my dd's high school experience does not 'look' like
her peers'. HOWEVER, I do see a mature young woman emerging precisely,
I think, because we are doing things differently than the typical
high school; like the things that you mentioned; following her interests
and learning to function in the 'real' world.

Amber, you are blessed-how many mom's of 13 y/o's see their dds as
'lovely' inside and out? The relationship you have with your dd has
probably been developed over many years stemming from the TIME homeschooling
affords you. Keep going!!!! It is worth it!!

I honestly don't know if my dd's education will be 'thorough' if compared
to a typical high scope and sequence. Will my dd have 'gaps'? Yes!
However the gaps are 'fixable', but the area that is much harder to
retrieve is that of CHARACTER! It certainly sounds like you are on
the right course!

If your dd wants to go to college, you will see her pursue that. She
will probably still have a love of learning intact and she will have
a clearer reason for going in the first place.

I highly recommend Cafi Cohen's book, "And What About College?". Cafi
shows you how to take all those delightful things your dd is doing
and put them into 'educationalese' so that you can take a deep 'sigh'
and continue in your relaxed and pleasant way!

Blessings,

Joyce U

e-mail me if you want to!

> My oldest is 13 and I'm having
> real anxiety about the next few years.
> Up to now, our pace has been relaxed
> and pleasant. Progress has been made
> and she is a lovely young lady inside
> and out. Now I am faced with preparing
> her for the possiblity of college. Now
> what we do "counts" and I
> am afraid of not doing the job "thoroughly"
> enough for her to be able to enter into
> the college of her choice. She reads
> alot, so much, in fact, that the student
> knows more than her teacher! But she's
> not a math whiz nor will she be finding
> the cure for cancer anytime soon. But
> she *can* make change for a dollar,
> run a thriving yard sale, plant a productive
> garden, and raise and tame rabbits.
> Doesn't this "count," too?
> Can you tell that I've stressed over
> this? Wise words would be appreciated.
>

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Can I really see this through?
      AUTHOR:  Joy
        DATE:  Tuesday, 23 March 1999, at 6:56 p.m.

 Response To:  Re: Can I really see this through?
      Author:  Jody C.
        Date:  Tuesday, 23 March 1999, at 3:31 p.m.



>

> I'm like you and have remained
> fairly "relaxed and pleasant"
> about our high school homeschool too.
> I'm finding subjects that HE is interested
> in and letting him forge ahead! We are
> working in algebra (but that's not too
> high pressure) and in sciences I'm finding
> lots of options.

> Progress has been made

> To me, THIS IS the TRUE goal!!

I also agree with both of you. A good attitude is very important for
you and the students.
>

> Now I am faced with preparing

> Does she want to attend college?
> Find out what subjects she needs to
> be prepared for her chosen course of
> study. Does she even know yet what course
> of study she'd like? Not many do. What
> about apprenticeship in an area she's
> interested in? A part-time job with
> the vet? Some kids find out they don't
> want to do the profession they had in
> mind once they get their feet wet.

> I KNOW you can do it. Just more
> of the same. Relax and enjoy learning
> some more.

> Jody

That is excellent advice Jody. I noticed you mentioned the vet idea.
I had the same idea, reading Amber's message about raising rabbits.
Amber you could as you daught if she might enjoy "Job shaddowing at
a Vet clinic" If she is interest, phone around and I'm sure a vet
would be more than happy to have a student with a good attitude shadow
him/her around for a day or so. Also check you may get high school
credit for it.

We Home base educate 3 children. The are now 17,15, and 10. Patience,
love and motivation seems to be the main receipt. We live in Alberta,
Canada. Enjoy Home Ed and relax, Joy

>

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Thanks . . .
      AUTHOR:  Susan M
        DATE:  Tuesday, 23 March 1999, at 11:35 p.m.

 Response To:  Thanks . . .
      Author:  dmx
        Date:  Tuesday, 23 March 1999, at 4:26 p.m.



> I have a secret fear that my son will
> love school and want to go full time.

I had this same fear with my second son, as he is the social one and
loves to be with other kids. However, much as he enjoys his PS classes
(band and, for one trimester, P.E.), he sees the advantages of homeschool,
especially the fact that he gets done sooner than PS kids and doesn't
have a lot of homework like many of them do. This gives him more time
to play and more time for his trumpet, which he really loves.

Susan M

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: The pre-high school panic
      AUTHOR:  Grace
        DATE:  Wednesday, 24 March 1999, at 4:46 a.m.

 Response To:  The pre-high school panic
      Author:  Joyce U.
        Date:  Tuesday, 23 March 1999, at 5:55 p.m.



Exactly what I have been going thru... and I have been coming to these
conclusions that you ladies have shared...This thread has BEEN SOOOO
encouraging..... The other day I gave my 13yos his choice of studying
anything he wanted ...I told him he could pick the unit...He chose
Electronics......I was impressed... Just yesterday someone was talking
negatively about my relaxed flexible schooling(and yes, it was a fellow
homeschooler)..I told her that to me whether they finished a structured
book work was not the important thing it was that they grew up to
be the people God wanted them to be.... Then after this y program...The
instructor came up to me and said Your kids are sooo good..always
looking out for others and willing to step aside and let others be
first.. so.. Oh MY I am rambling here ... Sorry Thanks for all the
encouragement... and thanks for reading.. Blessings,

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Everything counts
      AUTHOR:  Cafi
        DATE:  Wednesday, 24 March 1999, at 7:05 a.m.

 Response To:  Can I really see this through?
      Author:  Amber
        Date:  Tuesday, 23 March 1999, at 12:15 p.m.



Hi Amber --

Let's see. You have a thirteen-year-old daughter who reads so well
she's taught herself topics you know nothing/little about. If she
can make change, she already knows more math than half the people
awarded high school diplomas in this country. She gardens, raises
rabbits, and -- I'll bet -- has accomplished many other things.

Do you have any idea how many parents of thirteen year old girls only
wish they could relate the same things. You and your daughter are
screaming successes. Don't change ANYTHING! Instead, focus on the
donut, not the hole. Continue to support your daughter's interests
and learn how to call everything school (to keep college admissions
officers happy). I tell you how in my book, "And What About College?"
How Homeschooling Leads To Admissions To The Best Colleges and Universities.
Read first chapter on-line for free at site below.

Cafi in CA

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Eliminating SAT/ACT
      AUTHOR:  Cafi in California
        DATE:  Wednesday, 24 March 1999, at 7:11 a.m.

 Response To:  No more SAT's?
      Author:  Amber
        Date:  Tuesday, 23 March 1999, at 12:02 p.m.



Hi Amber --

I don't know about any rumors, but an organization called Fair Test
keeps track of colleges and universities who have eliminated the SAT/ACT
for making admissions decisions. I've linked the list below.

Cafi in CA

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Pitfalls for one-hour daily school attendance
      AUTHOR:  Cafi in California
        DATE:  Wednesday, 24 March 1999, at 7:21 a.m.

 Response To:  Pitfalls of classes at the local school?
      Author:  dmx
        Date:  Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 6:24 p.m.



Hi --

My daughter took choir at the local high school one year. Biggest
problems:

(1) Scheduling. We found the high school changed it's daily schedule
at least once every two weeks, sometimes oftener. The schedule would
be changed for "special" events (rallies, concerts, half-days, teacher
workshops, fund raisers, sports, etc). Since my daughter's class was
in the middle of the day, if we didn't know about schedule change
(and sometimes they were simply announced that day), she'd usually
miss class.

(2) Working our schedule around theirs. If your son's class occurs
in the middle of the day, you will find it breaks up and limits participation
in all kinds of other activities, like volunteer and paying work,
homeschool field trips, and so on. Of course, it also limits family
travel, just as regular school attendance does.

(3) School's acceptance of mediocre work was my daughter's biggest
complaint. My daughter also sang in a church choir, which she said
had a more professional, work-oriented ethic to it. She didn't like
being around kids in the school choir (most of them) who were simply
taking an "easy" class.

Cafi in CA

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Ideas for Teen Homeschool Groups
      AUTHOR:  Cafi in California
        DATE:  Wednesday, 24 March 1999, at 7:28 a.m.

 Response To:  Ideas for Teen Homeschool Groups
      Author:  Pam
        Date:  Friday, 19 March 1999, at 9:56 p.m.



Hi Pam --

I teach in a homeschool co-op. ALL the teenagers love our group music
activities. Specifically, I teach recorders (our kids play soprano,
alto, tenor, bass) and handbells. We had to borrow the handbells from
a church. Kids bought their own recorders. We also offer drama. Rehearsals
occur one-two times per week, depending on our performing schedule.

Kids perform in the community. Costs are low. almost anyone with a
music background can learn/teach recorder and handbells or choirchimes
(a less expensive handbell substitute). I can relate more organizational
details, if you are interested.

Cafi in CA

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Cafi's URL
      AUTHOR:  Giovanna
        DATE:  Wednesday, 24 March 1999, at 8:21 a.m.

 Response To:  Everything counts
      Author:  Cafi
        Date:  Wednesday, 24 March 1999, at 7:05 a.m.



> Read first chapter
> on-line for free at site below.

> Cafi in CA

Here is the URL again

http://www.concentric.net/~Ctcohen/

I wanted to post it here instead of in a link so that it will transfer
on to the permanent archive.


               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  FairTest SAT/ACT optional schools
      AUTHOR:  Cafi in California
        DATE:  Wednesday, 24 March 1999, at 9:28 a.m.



Here's the link. From that page, you can get to the list.

Cafi

http://www.fairtest.org/optional.htm

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Thanks. . .
      AUTHOR:  dmx
        DATE:  Wednesday, 24 March 1999, at 5:08 p.m.

 Response To:  Pitfalls for one-hour daily school attendance
      Author:  Cafi in California
        Date:  Wednesday, 24 March 1999, at 7:21 a.m.



Thanks for your response. I am hearing that the 'scheduling changes'
problem comes up frequently.

I see your point about the limiting aspect of part-time attendance
in the school. That worries me somewhat, since flexibility has been
so important to us - the ability to drop everything to take advantage
of events or activities at hand. Fortunately, he's taking this class
only for the last 9-week school period. We may have to re-think this
if he wants to take classes at the high school next fall. Unfortunately,
the number of homeschoolers in our rural area is small, especially
in the middle to high school age levels. I'd rather not get involved
in the system at all, but other options haven't met what I see as
his real need to spend more time with other kids, or at least non-family
members. Thanks again for your comments.

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Borrow my "binoculars" for a minute
      AUTHOR:  Cerelle
        DATE:  Thursday, 25 March 1999, at 6:03 a.m.

 Response To:  Can I really see this through?
      Author:  Amber
        Date:  Tuesday, 23 March 1999, at 12:15 p.m.



Your oldest sounds so much like mine at 13. She read circles around
most adults, didn't like formal math, was wonderful with goats and
sheep, and was only mildly interested in science. I worried about
how to get her from "here" to "there," thinking this was something
*I* had to do...and completely FORGETTING that all the principles
which had worked so well, so far, would keep right on working in her
favor!

We must've been brainwashed when we were young, because we all seem
to believe that everything has to GET SERIOUS the minute a kid is
adolescent. Oh--high school--time to get serious. Why? Because college
is coming up? Then I guess it's college that's really so serious.
And why is that? Because it's getting us prepared for real life, and
everyone knows Real Life is serious. But WAIT!

That's what our homeschooled kids have been doing all along...living
Real Life.

College is not that difficult. I don't know why everyone thinks it
is. I know terrible scholars from the local schools--kids with D's
and F's on their report cards every 6 weeks--who've gone to college
and done pretty well. And these kids were yo-yos, believe me! ;-)

So anyway, Amber, my daughter is 20 now, and not only did she get
into college; she got to go to her FIRST CHOICE college. She was able
to pick and choose. This didn't happen because we "buckled down and
got serious in high school," but because we always encouraged her
to keep doing what she loved to do. You never know where something
will lead -- the world is a very mysterious place! One little thing
develops into something else, which develops into something else,
and the next thing you know, your daughter is, like, world famous
for being an expert on rabbits, and all the colleges are begging her
to pick them!

Chin up...you can do it. You just keep right on doing what you've
BEEN doing, and prepare to be amazed.

Best wishes,

Cerelle

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Self Taught Teens
      AUTHOR:  Jody C.
        DATE:  Friday, 26 March 1999, at 6:12 a.m.



Just reading all these posts is so encouraging and now a few words
of encouragement for you.

After thinking about our high school curriculum, I've realized that
much of what my son is learning is stuff that I have no knowledge
about. He has learned to auto-mechanic all on his own. Oh, I got him
started with "trying" to help him fix a lawn mower, but he really
figured it out on his own (at about 10yrs old). We did buy him a book
called The Idiots Guide to Auto Mechanics (or something like that),
but really, his interests guided him to all the resources he needed
to find out "how-to". Now he's found a nearby mechanic/friend who
is more than happy to have him over while he puts new engines in,
fixes brakes, repairs carburators. He even helped my son fix his 1979
Monte Carlo...free!!

This same son likes sciences and has taught himself much in rocketry,
astronomy and geology...all without my assistance!! "Imagine my heartbreak...he
didn't need me!"

Seriously, if kids want to know and are encouraged, they'll get what
they want and where they want to go.

Jody

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Jumping in with both feet....
      AUTHOR:  DebMc (Tx)
        DATE:  Friday, 26 March 1999, at 8:44 p.m.



Hi, I love what I see written about your self-motivated eager learners.
I will be hsing for the first time next school year. I have boys age
8 & 14. Our circumstances are such that we will be living overseas
for that year. We want to hs to have a flexible schedule to take advantage
of travel opportunities. Hands-on geography! My deep concern is that
it is SO complicated to get back into the ps high school here. So,
I feel I'm committed to hs until college. That's a committment. That's
ok with me, I think we will love it. But what if we don't????? BTW
I just purchased Cafi's book. Great! I also realize what a terrific
opportunity this is for my dh and I to re-establish a good relationship
with my oldest son. He is a very unmotivated learner, but tests very
bright on those evaluation tests schools love so much. How do I wake
up that desire to learn? Remembering of course that we will be in
Belgium!!!!!!!!! Do we do anything that is uncomplicated? :) BTW,
he seems to like computers and computer games, weapons, military stuff,
fishing, band, drama and cars. We have done rockets in the past. Nothing
seems to spark a passion in him. I'm gathering cirriculum now, so
any guidance you have will be most welcome. I've rambled, sorry. Many
thanks, Deb

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  What a wondeful opportunity
      AUTHOR:  Ann in NC
        DATE:  Saturday, 27 March 1999, at 5:05 a.m.

 Response To:  Jumping in with both feet....
      Author:  DebMc (Tx)
        Date:  Friday, 26 March 1999, at 8:44 p.m.



Okay, Deb, I have to admit to being a wee bit jealous!! A year in
Belgium? Ahh.... I love Belgium..in fact, for our honeymoon we spent
3 weeks in Belgium (a long, long time ago!).

I think you will have a marvelous time homeschooling. I wouldn't worry
too much about gathering curriculum supplies for your older son...he's
got so many interests, and you'll be in such a different situation.
I'd just let him soar on the things he loves...imagine all the cool
European cars he can investigate (I'm thinking of those fancy expensive
ones...), European military history -- and the new situations militarily
in Europe, German band music, different kinds of fishing to be done
there, in addition to lots of other topics that might come up. Sheesh...you
lucky dog.

You might want to consider Clonlara, if you are nervous about the
credits. I don't think it is necessary, especially if you have Cafi's
book. But if you are just starting to homeschool, it might be nice
to have a 'teacher' reinforcing the idea of making use of the advantages
of being abroad in your homeschooling...

You have to keep us informed of how it's going. When do you leave?
How do your kids feel about it all?

Ann


               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Are you a military family???
      AUTHOR:  Carey
        DATE:  Saturday, 27 March 1999, at 6:11 a.m.

 Response To:  Jumping in with both feet....
      Author:  DebMc (Tx)
        Date:  Friday, 26 March 1999, at 8:44 p.m.



Deb, we are USAF currently living in Canada. Since there are non DoD
schools, the government provides homeschool materials at no charge.
For grades K-8 they use Calvert and for 9-12 I think they use University
of Nebraska. Let me know if you are interested and I will post the
links. University of Nebraska issues high school credits, so you could
use an eclectic combination similiar to Cafi's. We use Calvert and
have had a lot of success with it; this is our first year homeschooling
and I found the lesson plans in the teacher's manual very helpful.
Now that I have some experience under my belt, I feel more confident
to pick and choose my own curriculum. May stick with Calvert though
as it is very thorough.

Carey


               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  What a great field trip!!!!!My dream!!!nt
      AUTHOR:  Joyce U.
        DATE:  Saturday, 27 March 1999, at 8:35 a.m.

 Response To:  Jumping in with both feet....
      Author:  DebMc (Tx)
        Date:  Friday, 26 March 1999, at 8:44 p.m.



nt

> Hi, I love what I see written about
> your self-motivated eager learners.
> I will be hsing for the first time next
> school year. I have boys age 8 &
> 14. Our circumstances are such that
> we will be living overseas for that
> year. We want to hs to have a flexible
> schedule to take advantage of travel
> opportunities. Hands-on geography! My
> deep concern is that it is SO complicated
> to get back into the ps high school
> here. So, I feel I'm committed to hs
> until college. That's a committment.
> That's ok with me, I think we will love
> it. But what if we don't????? BTW I
> just purchased Cafi's book. Great! I
> also realize what a terrific opportunity
> this is for my dh and I to re-establish
> a good relationship with my oldest son.
> He is a very unmotivated learner, but
> tests very bright on those evaluation
> tests schools love so much. How do I
> wake up that desire to learn? Remembering
> of course that we will be in Belgium!!!!!!!!!
> Do we do anything that is uncomplicated?
> :) BTW, he seems to like computers and
> computer games, weapons, military stuff,
> fishing, band, drama and cars. We have
> done rockets in the past. Nothing seems
> to spark a passion in him. I'm gathering
> cirriculum now, so any guidance you
> have will be most welcome. I've rambled,
> sorry. Many thanks, Deb

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Great opportunity for teen!!!!
      AUTHOR:  Kysa
        DATE:  Saturday, 27 March 1999, at 12:20 p.m.

 Response To:  Jumping in with both feet....
      Author:  DebMc (Tx)
        Date:  Friday, 26 March 1999, at 8:44 p.m.



You may want to take a few refernce type books and maybe an appropriate
math curriculum, but I agree with previous posts. Just being in Europe
will be great opportunity. If your older boy wants to do a bit of
exploring on his own he will have to learn a bit of French or Flemish
or German (don't know what part of Belgium you will be in). That is
the best way to learn a new language. Prably the younger one will
learn the other language just playing with other children. You will
have enough time to really explore museums and historical sites. I
just took my 16 y/o to Denmark, Scotland, and England. We were gone
11 days. Now that we are back, she keeps asking why didn't we go to
this museum or that castle. We didn't have enough time, even though
she got to explore some awesome places and things. Highlight was "Phantom
of the Opera" in it's home theatre in London. If your sons can really
dig into the museums available, they will learn more than most adults
in several years. Have fun. Wish we could come with! Kysa

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Pitfalls of classes at the local school?
      AUTHOR:  Marie
        DATE:  Sunday, 28 March 1999, at 7:13 a.m.

 Response To:  Pitfalls of classes at the local school?
      Author:  dmx
        Date:  Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 6:24 p.m.



My 13yr old son takes band at his old Middle School. He explained
to the teacher that he would only be able to come 3-4 days a week.
The band director was agreeable with that. He was also asked to be
in the higher grade band because his ability was better than his own
age group. That was the pitfall for us. He was suddenly raised a grade
level. Older students are not always nice. But happily things have
worked out for him. He went from being a nothing that the older teens
ignored to being told (when he dressed up for their latest concert)
that he was hot. What is a mom to do?!! LOL

The principal is very happy to have him around. They spend time together
durning the week just talking. Also asks him if he needs help with
anything or needs to borrow anything. Maybe we are just luck, but
I know that I am happy and so is he with the arrangement.

Marie

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Pitfalls of classes at the local school?
      AUTHOR:  mamama
        DATE:  Sunday, 28 March 1999, at 12:12 p.m.

 Response To:  Re: Pitfalls of classes at the local school?
      Author:  Susan M
        Date:  Sunday, 21 March 1999, at 11:06 p.m.



Susan, I was hoping you could tell me how your kids were treated by
other school kids. Did your children feel included ? Did they make
friends that get together out of school? Are they treated kindly by
the other kids? What about teasing or bullying? Thanks-mamama


               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Pitfalls of classes at the local school?
      AUTHOR:  Susan M
        DATE:  Sunday, 28 March 1999, at 3:26 p.m.

 Response To:  Re: Pitfalls of classes at the local school?
      Author:  mamama
        Date:  Sunday, 28 March 1999, at 12:12 p.m.



> Susan, I was hoping you could tell
> me how your kids were treated by other
> school kids. Did your children feel
> included ? Did they make friends that
> get together out of school? Are they
> treated kindly by the other kids? What
> about teasing or bullying? Thanks-mamama
>

Most of the time my boys have been treated no differently than the
other kids. There have been kids in some of the classes who teased
them, but these kids also teased other fulltime students. One boy
called my younger son a "foreign exchange student" for awhile, but
it was just in fun. He had played on a baseball team with this boy
one summer, so they knew each other a bit. In fact, this son already
knew quite a few kids there from baseball and soccer and Scouts, so
he wasn't exactly thrown in with total strangers.

There have been some kids who were pains to be around. One boy in
band will sometimes hit my son's trumpet or kick his trumpet case.
Others just goof off and make it hard for the ones who want to learn.
My son has found that the kids in the older band are a little more
attentive. Perhaps those who have stuck with it that long really want
to be there.

My older son is not so outgoing, but he also has made some friends
(although most of the ones that come over are ones he knows from Scouts
or church). He was teased quite a bit in 8th grade art class by one
boy (who knew him from baseball), because of my son't unusual movements.
However, when he explained to this boy that he (my son) has Tourette's
Syndrome and could not help the movements and sounds, the boy stopped
teasing him.

My older son has said that there is less teasing in high school than
in the middle school. Of course, he is in higher level classes there,
where most of the students want to learn, so that helps.

To make a long story short, teasing has been present--though not directed
at my boys because of their homeschooling--but has not been a major
problem. They have become friends with some of the kids, but have
made their best friends through Scouts and church.

Hope this helps.

Susan M

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Jumping in with both feet....
      AUTHOR:  Cindy
        DATE:  Monday, 29 March 1999, at 2:57 p.m.

 Response To:  Jumping in with both feet....
      Author:  DebMc (Tx)
        Date:  Friday, 26 March 1999, at 8:44 p.m.



> Hi, I love what I see written about
> your self-motivated eager learners.
> I will be hsing for the first time next
> school year. I have boys age 8 &
> 14. Our circumstances are such that
> we will be living overseas for that
> year. We want to hs to have a flexible
> schedule to take advantage of travel
> opportunities. Hands-on geography! My
> deep concern is that it is SO complicated
> to get back into the ps high school
> here. So, I feel I'm committed to hs
> until college. That's a committment.
> That's ok with me, I think we will love
> it. But what if we don't????? BTW I
> just purchased Cafi's book. Great! I
> also realize what a terrific opportunity
> this is for my dh and I to re-establish
> a good relationship with my oldest son.
> He is a very unmotivated learner, but
> tests very bright on those evaluation
> tests schools love so much. How do I
> wake up that desire to learn? Remembering
> of course that we will be in Belgium!!!!!!!!!
> Do we do anything that is uncomplicated?
> :) BTW, he seems to like computers and
> computer games, weapons, military stuff,
> fishing, band, drama and cars. We have
> done rockets in the past. Nothing seems
> to spark a passion in him. I'm gathering
> cirriculum now, so any guidance you
> have will be most welcome. I've rambled,
> sorry. Many thanks, Deb

We are USAF and have been in Germany for the past 18 months. We use
Calvert for our 5th and 7th grader. We travel outside of Germany at
least once a month. We find our travel meshes nicely with history
and geography, and esp with the art history. We have a German tutor
once a week. Boy Scouts provide unique opportunities in Europe. My
boys go to Intercamp with Scouts from all over Europe. They go to
a Klondike Derby in Switzerland. In April they will go to Normandy
and camp at Omaha Beach! This weekend we will head to Belguim for
a baseball tournament. Last year one son took us to Poland for two
weeks as he played in the Little League European Championships with
kids from all over Europe..inc. many from countries that were under
Communist rule a few years ago. The opportunities are incredible,
and we sometimes get behind in our studies.The experiences are worth
it in the long run! I have concerns about high school after home school
in Europe...but I figure an astute educational administrator will
see the advantages my children have experienced hands on! You will
love Europe!

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Tell me more...
      AUTHOR:  DebMc (Tx)
        DATE:  Monday, 29 March 1999, at 4:05 p.m.

 Response To:  Re: Jumping in with both feet....
      Author:  Cindy
        Date:  Monday, 29 March 1999, at 2:57 p.m.



Tell me more about Boy Scouts in Europe. We will be in Brussels. Kev
has just recently joined a troop here in Texas. It might be a great
way to meet others! We are not military, but my dh flies for a small
company, so we too will have the flexible travel-friendly schedule.
One of the best reasons to homeschool! I'm not familiar with Calvert,
(but I'll do my research) but we are planning lots of history and
'field trips'. Do you learn your art and history as you tour or do
you do prep study before you go? Also, what kind of compliance laws
might I run into in Belgium? Where can I find out that info? How quickly
have your children picked up the language? What has been the hardest
culture shock? Wow, thanks for the info. I am so excited! In Christ,
Deb Mc


               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Jumping in with both feet....
      AUTHOR:  Melody
        DATE:  Monday, 29 March 1999, at 6:35 p.m.

 Response To:  Re: Jumping in with both feet....
      Author:  Cindy
        Date:  Monday, 29 March 1999, at 2:57 p.m.



Have you looked into the Konos curriculum? It's a unit study curriculum
with GREAT ideas to spark kids' interest in various areas - also a
character curriculum. We use it along with our Saxon Math and Language
curriculums. My kids are 15, 13, and 10. I've been homeschooling since
the oldest was seven. They are interested in so many things and have
the freedom to pursue those interests. That's what I love best about
home schooling. They are very self-motivated because they are able
to learn about what interests them. Good luck!

>

> We are USAF and have been in Germany
> for the past 18 months. We use Calvert
> for our 5th and 7th grader. We travel
> outside of Germany at least once a month.
> We find our travel meshes nicely with
> history and geography, and esp with
> the art history. We have a German tutor
> once a week. Boy Scouts provide unique
> opportunities in Europe. My boys go
> to Intercamp with Scouts from all over
> Europe. They go to a Klondike Derby
> in Switzerland. In April they will go
> to Normandy and camp at Omaha Beach!
> This weekend we will head to Belguim
> for a baseball tournament. Last year
> one son took us to Poland for two weeks
> as he played in the Little League European
> Championships with kids from all over
> Europe..inc. many from countries that
> were under Communist rule a few years
> ago. The opportunities are incredible,
> and we sometimes get behind in our studies.The
> experiences are worth it in the long
> run! I have concerns about high school
> after home school in Europe...but I
> figure an astute educational administrator
> will see the advantages my children
> have experienced hands on! You will
> love Europe!

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Getting ready for middle school
      AUTHOR:  Lynn
        DATE:  Monday, 29 March 1999, at 7:32 p.m.



What is the best curriculum (with a text book approach)to use for
middle school years. I realize what I am asking for "the best." But
I was just wanting your opinions and I know that I will be getting
"opinions."

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Pitfalls for one-hour daily school attendance
      AUTHOR:  jackielou
        DATE:  Monday, 29 March 1999, at 8:01 p.m.

 Response To:  Pitfalls for one-hour daily school attendance
      Author:  Cafi in California
        Date:  Wednesday, 24 March 1999, at 7:21 a.m.



Dear Cafi -

Thanks for the warning about the schedule changes at school. I'm going
to an open house at a new charter school next week, and that is another
question I will have to bring up. This school is opening in the fall.
They advertise a college prep curriculum, so I hope there won't be
any problems with disruptive students, something my kids also detest.
Their press release said they will require uniforms, and will be eliminating
the practice of accepting flower deliveries during class, among other
things. This is a problem in ps? I had no idea!

I'm hoping our daughter will be able to attend their Latin classes,
as her tutor has been having some health problems. Another concern
I have is, what will be their attitude toward excused absences for
family travel? We vacation for 2-3 weeks throughout the school year.
I have read that some schools penalize students by lowering their
grades because they haven't occupied their seats for the required
number of days, even though they can handle the make-up work. Have
you found this to be true?

Are there any other questions or concerns I should bring up at the
open house? Thanks for listening, Jackie


               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Tell me more...
      AUTHOR:  Cindy
        DATE:  Tuesday, 30 March 1999, at 12:06 a.m.

 Response To:  Tell me more...
      Author:  DebMc (Tx)
        Date:  Monday, 29 March 1999, at 4:05 p.m.



> Tell me more about Boy Scouts in
> Europe. We will be in Brussels. Kev
> has just recently joined a troop here
> in Texas. It might be a great way to
> meet others! We are not military, but
> my dh flies for a small company, so
> we too will have the flexible travel-friendly
> schedule. One of the best reasons to
> homeschool! I'm not familiar with Calvert,
> (but I'll do my research) but we are
> planning lots of history and 'field
> trips'. Do you learn your art and history
> as you tour or do you do prep study
> before you go? Also, what kind of compliance
> laws might I run into in Belgium? Where
> can I find out that info? How quickly
> have your children picked up the language?
> What has been the hardest culture shock?
> Wow, thanks for the info. I am so excited!
> In Christ, Deb Mc

> Deb, To answer your questions; 1. The Transatlantic Council has
jurisdiction for Belguim(and Germany). Your contact is Vince Cozzond
from the states0113223873183. He can help you locate a Boy Scout Troop.
2. Calvert has Art History as one of their curriculum courses. 3.
Yes, we prep depending on our travels. It is wonderful when the boys
see something in a text and realize they have been there or seen that!
4. Germany has nothing in the way of compliance laws. Our base requests
that we notify the base school that we are hsing, and many people
do not even do that. There is an active hs group here. Germany does
not allow hs for its citizens. I think the US embassy may be your
best bet to ask about compliance, or possibly a nearby US military
base. 5.The kids have picked up the language remarkably fast....I
wish I could say the same about myself! Cindy

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Tell me more...
      AUTHOR:  Cindy
        DATE:  Tuesday, 30 March 1999, at 12:15 a.m.

 Response To:  Re: Tell me more...
      Author:  Cindy
        Date:  Tuesday, 30 March 1999, at 12:06 a.m.



> Deb, I forgot to tell you I also use Saxton Math and I am not satisfied
with the Calvert Math. Somewhere on this site was the web site for
Saxton Math. Make certain you have your Internet access and a good
computer encyclopedia . We found little culture shock. It is a pleasant
way of life...much slower pace, small town atmosphere, little to no
crime. We do only get one English speaking TV channel. That is not
important to us..but if your kids are used to TV prepare them. Wal
Mart on line has been good for VCR tapes! Many hotels have English
CNN and that is always a treat to find out what the world is up to!
Also no commercial advertisements to entice our teens! Cindy

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: Jumping in with both feet....
      AUTHOR:  PattiC
        DATE:  Tuesday, 30 March 1999, at 6:46 p.m.

 Response To:  Jumping in with both feet....
      Author:  DebMc (Tx)
        Date:  Friday, 26 March 1999, at 8:44 p.m.



Hi Deb, We are a civilian family living in Switzerland and homeschool
out two sons.We have been in Europe for almost 14 years now. I have
all sorts of links that I can share with you about European laws etc.
but am (un)fortunately on holiday at the moment and don't have easy
access to all of my links. If you could email me privately in the
second week of May I could help you out with all sorts of info. There
is also another lady who frequents the boards who homeschools her
4 boys and lives in Brussells, but she is on holiday as well now (
long hard winter in Europe, we all needed a break). If you are interested
I would be happy to help out. Good luck, if I were you I would be
seriously tempted to devlope your own program to go along with your
travels...studying where you will be next in mini-units. It is fabulous
to homeschool in Europe, there is so much to see. Unfortunately there
aren't too many of us out there though. Patti
> Hi, I love what I see written about
> your self-motivated eager learners.
> I will be hsing for the first time next
> school year. I have boys age 8 &
> 14. Our circumstances are such that
> we will be living overseas for that
> year. We want to hs to have a flexible
> schedule to take advantage of travel
> opportunities. Hands-on geography! My
> deep concern is that it is SO complicated
> to get back into the ps high school
> here. So, I feel I'm committed to hs
> until college. That's a committment.
> That's ok with me, I think we will love
> it. But what if we don't????? BTW I
> just purchased Cafi's book. Great! I
> also realize what a terrific opportunity
> this is for my dh and I to re-establish
> a good relationship with my oldest son.
> He is a very unmotivated learner, but
> tests very bright on those evaluation
> tests schools love so much. How do I
> wake up that desire to learn? Remembering
> of course that we will be in Belgium!!!!!!!!!
> Do we do anything that is uncomplicated?
> :) BTW, he seems to like computers and
> computer games, weapons, military stuff,
> fishing, band, drama and cars. We have
> done rockets in the past. Nothing seems
> to spark a passion in him. I'm gathering
> cirriculum now, so any guidance you
> have will be most welcome. I've rambled,
> sorry. Many thanks, Deb

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  I think Mom's Eccletic Mish-Mash is definitely the
best there is! ....
      AUTHOR:  Charity (AK)
        DATE:  Wednesday, 31 March 1999, at 2:47 p.m.

 Response To:  Getting ready for middle school
      Author:  Lynn
        Date:  Monday, 29 March 1999, at 7:32 p.m.



I do not think there is one package curriculum that will be the best
for any child. IMO the most effective curriculum package is one that
Mom puts together herself after contemplating:

The child's learning style The child's future goals The child's strengths
and weaknesses The child's interests and passions The family's finances
The family's educational philosophy/goals The family's lifestyle and
schedule

And then Mom takes the above information and begins to research using
curriculum reviews, hands-on perusal, many message board dicussions,
catalogs, etc.

After all this homework, Mom puts together a completely customized
approach specially designed for her student.

I'm sure you'll get other opinions, but for us...this approach is
definitely the best!!

Charity

PS - Want my highly prejudiced opinion on Abeka Language - about the
only strictly traditional textbook I've tried (besides Saxon which
we love)...YUCK! Ditching it after six months use. What a waste of
time. Takes forever to teach just a few simple concepts. Inefficient!!

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Ditto that!
      AUTHOR:  Kysa
        DATE:  Wednesday, 31 March 1999, at 3:58 p.m.

 Response To:  I think Mom's Eccletic Mish-Mash is definitely the
best there is! ....
      Author:  Charity (AK)
        Date:  Wednesday, 31 March 1999, at 2:47 p.m.



Even if you use some prepackaged curriculum, I still think one of
the MAJOR advantages of homeschooling is tailoring the curriculum
to each individual child. I have two children that are as differnt
as night and day. My son used and liked textbook approaches. My daughter
now in high school uses--loosely--unit studies. Although I already
owned the textbooks my son used, I have used only one of those books
(not a text) for my daughter. She needed a completely different approach
tailored just for her. Whatever you choose, look again at the choices
with each subsequent child. Kysa

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Ditto the comments on both the ecclectic curriculum
and the language program...
      AUTHOR:  Janet in NM
        DATE:  Wednesday, 31 March 1999, at 7:04 p.m.

 Response To:  I think Mom's Eccletic Mish-Mash is definitely the
best there is! ....
      Author:  Charity (AK)
        Date:  Wednesday, 31 March 1999, at 2:47 p.m.



> I do not think there is one package
> curriculum that will be the best for
> any child. IMO the most effective curriculum
> package is one that Mom puts together
> herself...

In fact, looking back over the years, I think even the times we've
switched and tried different books for different subjects have been
good. My kids have experienced several different approaches to, say,
math. They aren't entrenched in just one way of doing things, or learning
things, or thinking about things.

> PS - Want my highly prejudiced
> opinion on Abeka Language - about the
> only strictly traditional textbook I've
> tried (besides Saxon which we love)...YUCK!
> Ditching it after six months use.

This was definitely one of our least successful curriculum choices.
We stuck it out a little longer than you did, though - a whole year.
Slow learners.

Janet

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  I'm getting tired of teaching.
      AUTHOR:  Barbara C.
        DATE:  Wednesday, 31 March 1999, at 10:42 p.m.



I have been homeschooling for almost two years now. My dd (now 6th
grade) and I are, basically, doing school at home. I'm getting tired
of learning (or reviewing), making lesson plans, and then "teaching"
it all to my dd.

What do all of you think about making a rough lesson plan and then
learning (or reviewing) right along with my dd? This method would
seem to promote more of a lifestyle of learning than what we have
been doing!

TIA! Barbara C.

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  No more spoonfeeding!
      AUTHOR:  Cerelle
        DATE:  Thursday, 1 April 1999, at 5:00 a.m.

 Response To:  I'm getting tired of teaching.
      Author:  Barbara C.
        Date:  Wednesday, 31 March 1999, at 10:42 p.m.



> What do all of you think about
> making a rough lesson plan and then
> learning (or reviewing) right along
> with my dd? This method would seem to
> promote more of a lifestyle of learning
> than what we have been doing!

Absolutely! You may not be doing your daughter any favors by doing
so much of the work yourself. Colleges tend to want students who are
"self-starters" -- kids who have actively sought out knowledge, instead
of waiting for it to come to them. Have you heard the old "joke" (it's
not really all that funny) about the teacher who says, "I teach and
I teach, but the students don't learn?"

Learning together would probably be a step in the right direction.
And don't be surprised if you find yourself learning about x, while
your daughter learns about y. This happens all the time at our house.

I don't blame you for getting tired of teaching. School-at-home with
one pupil can seem like an empty, thankless task. One thing you could
try in the beginning is turning the tables -- challenge your daughter
to teach YOU something for a change. The surest way to learn something
is to teach it, after all! :-)

Cerelle

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  I got tired too!
      AUTHOR:  Giovanna
        DATE:  Thursday, 1 April 1999, at 6:47 a.m.

 Response To:  I'm getting tired of teaching.
      Author:  Barbara C.
        Date:  Wednesday, 31 March 1999, at 10:42 p.m.



HI BARBARA!

Someone over at the main board posted a message very, very similar
to yours. I'm going to copy my reply to her because it very much fits
your situation as well.

...................

I have no way of really knowing this since I do

not know you personally or your daughter. But,

could it be that you are burned out on

curriculum?

When I began to homeschool I found myself

very much preoccupied with curriculum. I spent

hours upon hours upon hours browsing through

catalogs, asking questions, getting opinions,

going to curriculum fairs. After much

investigating and research I thought I had found

the "perfect program" only to throw it out a

quarter of a way through it. BURN OUT!

Don't get me wrong.... I'm not AGAINST

curriculum. I just refuse to be a slave to it any

longer.

Yes I agree. Your daughter SHOULD be

more independent as far as her studies. So why

isn't she? I don't have a clear cut reason...I can

only guess that she (and you) are "curriculum

dependent". It doesn't take incredible amounts

of "creativity" to learn. All it really takes is a

desire and the ability to read. If the desire is

not there it has probably been squelched by all

the things that make learning tedious.... like

overloaded lesson plans, schedules that are too

rigid, planned activities that don't really engage

the child.... the child is merely the "audience"

and not really a participant.

I personally love KONOS because it has lessons

plans that you can adapt and bend to suit your

needs. However, people can get really carried

away with this stuff! I once attended a KONOS

seminar where the mom, very excitedly, pointed

out all of activities that they had done with this

program, the projects, the costumes they had

sewed, the field trips, the carefully planned

library books that they had found, the things

they built. Quite impressive!

I took one look at that and thought, "Oh my

goodness, if this is what I have to do to get my

children excited about learning then forget it...

it's just too exhausting!"

SIGH!

Full of guilt I gave in anyhow. I attempted to be

super homeschool mom. What happened?

As I was busy concocting all of these wonderful

little "experiences" that would insure that my

children would learn while having fun I noticed

that they were just passive spectators. I was

doing all of the work and they just sat, in sort of

a numb state, watching me prepare and digest

all of their learning for them. This was not at all

their project----it was all about ME! While they

may have learned a few things and it was "fun"

to do all of this stuff, the real truth of the

matter was that I was getting exhausted and

the kids were not really being truly educated.

Yes, they were learning "facts" but there weren't

learning HOW to learn.

THIS WAS NOT MY IDEA OF LEARNING! I knew

this couldn't be it. This is when I started to

realize why so many children are just plain and

outright bored with learning. Often times it's not

something that comes out of their heart. It's

always about someone else's agenda, someone

else's idea. Children go to conventional school

every day and they don't really have to do much

in the way of learning. Someone has already

prepared the "food" for them. All they have to do

is open their mouth and retain just enough of it

for the test. The teacher has carefully "cooked

up" the recipie, included just enough of the right

activities, the right questions. The children just

sit and have their meal spoon-fed. How is this

going to produce an independent learner? In my

personal opinion, most of the learning is done

while the person himself is actively seeking the

knowledge.

Are homeschools any different?

In our attempt to want to "teach" our children

we often get trapped in a method that doesn't

produce the complete fruit we are hoping for.

We copy the conventional system because we

feel that's the way all children should learn. We

are just as "busy" as cooking up our children's

education for them.

It doesn't have to be that way.

What are your daughter's passions? Does she

have any? If she does START THERE! Let her set

her own course of education. Let her do her own

research, find her own books. Let her indulge in

whatever her passion is. That's real education

right there....the ability to learn INDEPENDENTLY.

If she doesn't have any passions is probably

because she has never had enough time to even

think about it. Her life has been too busy

following the curriculum and someones else's

educational agenda.

Look on your left. If you haven't already done so

find the link to the TDIGESTS FROM THE MONTHLY TOPIC BOARD and read
the DESCHOOLING DIGEST.

I think it will really help you.

I realize that what I have written here may

sound odd to a lot of people. I am certainly not

suggesting that we leave our children alone.

They do need our guidance. My son needed me

to help him to learn to read. There are a lot of

things that he needs me for. There is a fine line

though. What I am suggesting is that we take

off the "teacher" hat and put on a "learner" hat

and learn WITH our children.

You can start by asking different questions.

Instead of asking about this curriculum or that

program or how to pull in your resources to make

a unit study instead start to ask, "What can I do

to help my daughter become a lover or

learning?" "What is the big picture, the end

goal?" "How can I help my daughter become the

unique person God intended her to

become?"

WHAT IS THE END GOAL?

"For the sole true end of education is simply

this: to teach men how to learn for themselves,

and whatever instruction fails to do this is effort

spent in vain." --Dorothy Sayers

Giovanna

http://www.greenleafpress.com/articles/a_curdep.htm

               ========================================

     MESSAGE:  Re: I'm getting tired of teaching.
      AUTHOR:  Liz
        DATE:  Thursday, 1 April 1999, at 8:17 a.m.

 Response To:  I'm getting tired of teaching.
      Author:  Barbara C.
        Date:  Wednesday, 31 March 1999, at 10:42 p.m.



Barbara,

We started our school year last June, and I am tired of teaching,
too. I liked the idea of learning together. I think we might try it
next year (which isn't so far away).

Another thought I have had....some friends home school in the area.
We all school year around. I thought I might suggest that we teach
each others' children in a short class this summer. For example, one
can teach the first unit of Health to all of our children. I mayteach
the second unit to all of them at my house and the third friend will
do the same. Our children are all at the same age/grade. It would
give us a break, give the children some class participation, and get
Health out of the way (none of us are overjoyed about the course,
but it is state mandated). I have heard of other home school families
having one parent teach several about Castles etc. It sounds like
it might be fun and something different. Liz

> I have been homeschooling for almost
> two years now. My dd (now 6th grade)
> and I are, basically, doing school at
> home. I'm getting tired of learning
> (or reviewing), making lesson plans,
> and then "teaching" it all
> to my dd.

> What do all of you think about
> making a rough lesson plan and then
> learning (or reviewing) right along
> with my dd? This method would seem to
> promote more of a lifestyle of learning
> than what we have been doing!

> TIA! Barbara C.

               ========================================

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