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Homeschooling Middle School and Beyond Digest (part 2)
MESSAGE: happily grazing in the same pastures! AUTHOR: PattiC DATE: Monday, 8 March 1999, at 10:51 a.m. Response To: Some out-in-left-field thoughts about testing Author: Cerelle Date: Monday, 8 March 1999, at 7:40 a.m. Luckily, my kids have never been required to be tested. I hope to avoid them until they are old enough to have some perspective on what they are testing for and how tests measure. I was always in the 99th percentile (psat,act, etc.) and felt horribly guilty about it when asked for my scores by my peers. I also have a few very competitive friends and am thrilled to be able to completely avoid the one upmanship discussions with them that I find inevitably come about. > Since the discussion seems to have > turned to testing anyway, I thought > I'd share a few radical opinions I have > about the whole subject. > I think it's fine for families > to use the tests out there (PLUS, PSAT, > SAT, ACT, etc.) to help them get what > they want. If you think your children > could benefit from programs like the > one at Johns Hopkins, etc., then by > all means, sign them up for the early > tests and get them prepped. > But don't feel that just because > those tests are out there (and other > kids are taking them), you're somehow > failing your children if you don't get > them registered for every talent search. > It all depends on what you really want > for your kids and your family. > Personally, I hate the whole idea > of all those standardized tests (including > IQ tests, ability tests, and so on) > and the labels they inevitably generate. > That's just MY own personal bias. I > remember taking a zillion standardized > tests as a child and student, and I > wanted my kids to grow up free of all > that for as long as possible. > I don't care what their scores > and stanines are -- I care about the > kind of people they are and the attitude > they have toward learning. But once > you take a test, that score (whether > high, low, or average) is right there > in your face, telling you who you are. > In spite of a lot of pressure from all > directions, we put off those tests for > as long as humanly possible. > Of course, not everyone out there > is burdened with the negative feelings > I have about testing. I'm writing this > only for those who do -- and who feel > pressured by others to get their kids > signed up for one test or another. You > don't HAVE to do it just because it's > out there. Even if you know you have > a kid who could ace one of these tests > and be eligible for all sorts of special > programs, you don't HAVE to take advantage > of that. You can let them go right on > being kids, growing up blissfully unaware > of their percentiles. > My rule of thumb is this: If a > kid really wants to do something and > a test score will help him or her do > it, then by all means, sign 'em up for > that test. Otherwise, don't worry about > it. > Cerelle > ======================================== MESSAGE: agree, but have to live in real world AUTHOR: Kysa DATE: Monday, 8 March 1999, at 11:09 a.m. Response To: Some out-in-left-field thoughts about testing Author: Cerelle Date: Monday, 8 March 1999, at 7:40 a.m. I firmly believe that standardized testing gives such a small picture of a person as to be off in "left field". My oldest brother is still dislexic. He was granted conditional acceptance to our state university system because his ACT was low--because he could not read fast enough to take it. Once in college, he checked out books for the blind and did great in engineering. He now has a Ph. D. in engineering, but his test scores would have sent him to a no skill job. The girl I tutor in algebra will struggle on the ACT. She wants to be a nurse and would be a terrific one--great human campassion, and she can understand biology, just not math. Skye hates standardized testing and was interested to know that there are 280 school in the US that do NOT require SAT/ACT. However, they are not any of the schools or careers she is interested in. So.....she has to take the tests. Also, we find that too many scholarships require the scores. Reality is that she needs some scholarships to help pay for school. Her maother has been working only part-time so that she can be homeschooled! So.... on with testing..... ======================================== MESSAGE: puzzle pieces AUTHOR: Liz Messick DATE: Monday, 8 March 1999, at 1:04 p.m. Response To: Some out-in-left-field thoughts about testing Author: Cerelle Date: Monday, 8 March 1999, at 7:40 a.m. I think that tests give me more little pieces of the puzzle, help me understand my kids and how they learn. As you say, Cerelle, they are by no means the whole picture! I *think* Debby is dyslexic. I *know* she has difficulties with spelling, neatness, handwriting, organization - and that she is creative and musically talented. What I know about her is helpful - and what I will find out when I have her tested, as I intend to do, will give me more information. Because of dealing with these three individual kids and their various ways of learning, I have come to see labels as helpful rather than limiting. I think they *can be* and *are* limiting in most situations, where they are used to warehouse kids, or write them off. But when a label helps you understand, it can be a positive. Like a diagnosis of an illness, a label helps pinpoint the problems and solutions in a way that just general knowledge of a problem does not. Better for Debby to know she is dyslexic than to think she's stupid because she can't spell, no matter how hard she tries! I think who has control of the results is an important consideration, too. In a school system, where the powers that be offer and withdraw programs and services based on scores, then testing can be downright dangerous. And, as you say, because test scores are such a small (and often inaccurate) picture of a person, the potential for tragedy is great. Our state is in the process of deciding what test scores on the state-mandated tests will mean passing or failing, and is also determining what kind of high school diploma a child will get based on those scores. (distinguished, general, etc.) A friend of Deb's took the PLUS test at the same time Debby did, and her mother is anguished because her scores were not as high as she had hoped. The girls are now 11 years old, but she is looking ahead to HS graduation and worrying whether her obviously bright, talented, creative daughter will be able to pass the test with high enough scores to get a "good" kind of diploma, or even to graduate from (rather than just "complete") high school! Here's a place where far too much emphasis is placed on a single score. I'm getting far too long-winded here! Liz ======================================== MESSAGE: Tops Science... AUTHOR: Jody C. DATE: Monday, 8 March 1999, at 9:34 p.m. Hi there! Just thought I'd put my 2 cents in on one thing that my 15yos loves...Tops Science. Labs on nearly any "subject science". Electricity, magnetism, solutions, analysis, probablity, earth science and on the list goes. >From grades 3 and up to 12. Check it out at www.topscience.org You may like to try out their experiments...one for each topic. It's really great because all labs are done with things you have around the home. Have fun! Jody ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Tops Science... AUTHOR: Barbara C. DATE: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 6:46 a.m. Response To: Tops Science... Author: Jody C. Date: Monday, 8 March 1999, at 9:34 p.m. My 6th grade dd is a kinesetic learner. She has a wealth of knowledge stored in her brain about life science, but very little about physical science. TOPS sounds very interesting. I have a few questions, though. Is it a Unit Study? Are we going to be making trips to the library for books? Also, is it ALL hands-on learning? If so, how does my dd learn vocabulary and formulas, etc. TIA! Barbara C. ======================================== MESSAGE: I love TOPS! AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 7:02 a.m. Response To: Tops Science... Author: Jody C. Date: Monday, 8 March 1999, at 9:34 p.m. We used to get their newsletter/catalog in the mail, and it was great. I was impressed with the stuff I ordered from them, too (which wasn't much, really, since I never had much cash to work with, and there were always so many FREE ideas in their catalogs). What I like about TOPS is that they go above and beyond the standard fare you can find in most experiments-for-kids books, and yes, vocabulary IS presented...on a higher order than most kiddie science materials, in my opinion. I didn't realize they have a website now -- thanks! I'll definitely check it out. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Easy Grammar by Wanda Phillips and... AUTHOR: Cecilia DATE: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 8:12 a.m. Response To: Grammar Program Author: Laura H. Date: Wednesday, 3 March 1999, at 2:10 p.m. use the "The Complete Book of Diagrams" by Mary Daly. By pulling a sentence apart and diagramming it you can identify every part of it, the subject, the verb, all the adjectives and adverbs, prepositions, or conjuctions, and direct objects and so on. Anyhow, doing that once a week and using "Easy Grammar" should do it. "Easy Grammar" doesn't take alot of time. It's a workbook format. I like it because it teaches the student to identify the prepositional phrase in a sentence then sequentially moves along from there. ======================================== MESSAGE: The inevitable question: Are you going to homeschool thru High School? AUTHOR: Cecilia DATE: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 8:24 a.m. How many times do you get asked that question? I get asked that from the same people at least 3 times a year, and from stragers too. But it usually comes from people that have known me for a long time. After I answer, "yes..." I get the feeling they must have their doubts about my ability to do it. I get the feeling they might be thinking "Is this the Cecilia we know who's made so many dumb mistakes in life?" People change, for crying out loud! Besides I like learning and that keeps me growing intellectually, and spiritually. In our home my only daughter will be going into 7th grade next school year and I've been planning her curriculum for the last two years. That is something that the people who ask the question about homeschooling thru high school can't see. They don't see the planning, the effort, the prayer, and the commitment that goes into homeschooling, whether it's first grade or ninth grade. Homeschooling doesn't just happen. ======================================== MESSAGE: Good point! AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 8:47 a.m. Response To: The inevitable question: Are you going to homeschool thru High School? Author: Cecilia Date: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 8:24 a.m. > How many times do you get asked > that question? The one I hear most often is, "Are you still homeschooling your kids?" I realize it's just a conversation starter, but you'd think people would know me well enough by now to understand that this is pretty much my main vocation. I'm not likely to stop now and start selling shoes or something. > After I answer, "yes..." > I get the feeling they must have their > doubts about my ability to do it. I > get the feeling they might be thinking > "Is this the Cecilia we know who's > made so many dumb mistakes in life?" LOL! I bet some of my old school friends would be surprised if they knew I've been happily married to the same man for nearly 22 years, too. You're so right -- people DO change (and often for the better, amazing as that may seem). > They don't see the planning, the > effort, the prayer, and the commitment > that goes into homeschooling, whether > it's first grade or ninth grade. Homeschooling > doesn't just happen. What an excellent point. Other people can't see how hard we work to build an environment that's conducive to real education. It's hard to explain, hard to "see," and sometimes hard to do! What I've found is that people tend to fall into two groups. There are those who give me too MUCH credit -- assuming that I'm doing all the teaching, all the time, in every subject. (NOT!) And then there are those who aren't willing to give me ENOUGH credit for having the good sense to maybe -- almost -- know what I'm doing, here. Ah, well. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Tops Science... AUTHOR: Jody C. DATE: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 11:20 a.m. Response To: Re: Tops Science... Author: Barbara C. Date: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 6:46 a.m. Barb, I guess you could say that Tops is a "unit of science" rather than unit study. No, you'll make no trips to the library. The only thing it will require of you is to check the supply list in that unit and make sure you have everything...like I said, most things you will already have at home. Vocabulary...you learn as you go by exploring through the lab. The child also records results. It is all hands-on learning except the recording of results. Your daughter will love it...I'm sure. Jody ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Tops Science... AUTHOR: Susan M DATE: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 4:08 p.m. Response To: Re: Tops Science... Author: Jody C. Date: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 11:20 a.m. > Your daughter will love it...I'm > sure. We have used some of the TOPS units also and we also love them! I like them better than experiment books, because everything is tied together and builds on itself, whereas the experiment books tend to be disconnected and fun to do, but without much real learning. With TOPS you have fun, but you also learn a lot. Susan M ======================================== MESSAGE: How do you know the level of work? AUTHOR: Nedra DATE: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 4:49 p.m. Hi, I am very glad to see this topic. This is our fourth year hsing and things are going great ....but I have this gnawing doubt. My oldest is in sixth grade and I keep thinking, gee this is middle school what should we be adding? He tests great on standardized tests and he completes boy scout work with boys his age. I know this is probably all in my mind. Did any of you change much with middle school? We are not using a packaged cirriculum. We do units on the Hirsch books, Saxon Math, Understanding Writing, etc. I hope to continue hsing straight through high school so I want to build up to high school level work. How do you go about it? I am going to get Cafi Cohen's book at the next book exhibit I go to. I appreciate any comments about middle school. Thanks, Nedra ======================================== MESSAGE: writing AUTHOR: Liz Messick DATE: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 8:52 p.m. Response To: How do you know the level of work? Author: Nedra Date: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 4:49 p.m. Dealing with writing was one of my biggest problems. I wasn't sure what to ask them to write, or how to evaluate it after it was written. I got some outside help. I don't have the info. handy right now, but there's a woman named Barb R. (Radoslajevic? Not sure of the spelling..) whom you can hire to read and give and evaluation on a writing sample, something that I found helpful. I also continue to have a friend (veteran homeschooler who has raised a writer of her own) read my kids' work from time. That gives me an outside perspective. Sometimes, I "read between the lines" of their work, understanding points that haven't been made clear, simply because I know them so well. Having someone from the outside look at it and say, "Hmm...what is she talking about here?" is eye-opening. I have found novel studies to be very good for both writing and thinking practice. By middle school age, the kid should be beyond the multiple-choice kind of questions (which I think are pretty useless anyway). I use Dandy Lion's "Inside Stories", mostly, for novel study questions and activities, and these are interesting and thought-provoking. Right now Debby is studying "The Witch of Blackbird Pond." For evaluating her writing, I take some notes of my own, so I know what content should be in the answer. I look for rewording (otherwise known as plagiarism), generally unintentional, but still to be avoided. When we discuss her answers, we talk about places where her wording is inexact, or where her writing is awkward. She has a tendency to write endless sentences with strings of conjunctions, and that's a big thing we're working on right now. I just pay attention to "where she's at" right now, and when she masters something easily, we up the stakes a bit. I guess that's what I tend to do everywhere - bump up to the next level when the kid is ready. I hope lots of others chime in here! Liz ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Good point! AUTHOR: Jody C. DATE: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 8:52 p.m. Response To: Good point! Author: Cerelle Date: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 8:47 a.m. We are homeschooling high school and still Grandpa (next door) asks our son, "Don't you want to play basketball for the Ekalaka Bulldogs?" I'd like to tell him, we don't let our children play on losing teams (they're awful). Such an important reason to send them to "real school"...yes? Jody > > ======================================== MESSAGE: How are you keeping track of transcripts? AUTHOR: Jody C. DATE: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 8:56 p.m. I have a 9th grader and I'm thinking I should make up some type of transcript which would list his course work, however, we do not give grades. It's either pass/fail. I do grade essays and research papers. How are you keeping track and are you figuring credit/hours for your high school students? Does it even matter? Our state does not demand anything but attendance. I'm sure a college will only ask for ACT test and a signed check...right? Your views please. Thanks Jody ======================================== MESSAGE: Barb's website AUTHOR: Liz Messick DATE: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 9:02 p.m. Response To: writing Author: Liz Messick Date: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 8:52 p.m. Here's the link to Barb's website for writing evaluations. http://www.barbsbooks.com/engeval.htm ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: How are you keeping track of transcripts? AUTHOR: Kysa DATE: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 10:00 p.m. Response To: How are you keeping track of transcripts? Author: Jody C. Date: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 8:56 p.m. Almost all colleges will ask for a transcript, but many people (including my son) have done well with transcripts just listing the courses and amount of credit--no grades. At the end of my son's transcript, I made the notation that his ACT scores would correspond to a high school GPA of 3.5 to 4.0. That was acceptable. By all means, read Cafi's book. She has some of the most complete advice on making transcripts--and she includes different options. You should keep track of what your son is doing this year even if only in a journal form. You can worry about actual transcript style when he is getting ready to enter a college/vocational school or apprenticeship. Th university I work at requires of home schooled students their ACT scores and a list of high school courses. They do not ask for grades from home schooled students. Kysa ======================================== MESSAGE: short example AUTHOR: Kysa DATE: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 10:06 p.m. Response To: How are you keeping track of transcripts? Author: Jody C. Date: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 8:56 p.m. Although this board will not line things up in columns, here is an example of what we did for my son. 1995-96 English 1 credit Algebra 1 1 credit Biology 1 credit Music (piano) 1 credit World History 1 credit Geography 1/2 credit We had four years worth of this sort of thing. At the bottom we added: ACT percentile score is equivelent to a GPA of 3.5-4.0 He was accepted to all 3 schools where he applied, so it must have worked..... ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: How are you keeping track of transcripts? AUTHOR: Jody C. DATE: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 7:06 a.m. Response To: Re: How are you keeping track of transcripts? Author: Kysa Date: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 10:00 p.m. Kysa, Thanks for your good advice. I have always kept track of every book read by all my children since Kindergarten and keep a daily journal of everything we do. Thanks for recommending Cafi's book. I'll get that. Again...thanks so much for taking the time to help me. Jody ======================================== MESSAGE: This can be tough !(long message) AUTHOR: Donna (twyn) DATE: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 8:38 a.m. Response To: How do you know the level of work? Author: Nedra Date: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 4:49 p.m. I am currently home-schooling my 2 youngest children, a son who would be in 9th grade and a daughter who would be in 7th. I also had a dificult time knowing what level they were performing at, but I've decided not to worry too much about it. Standardized tests are requird here, and since they both continue to score in the higher ranges, I guess we're fine (not too thrilled about the whole idea of standardized tests to be truthful-but that's another topic) I also use Saxon for math, and they both seem to be a bit above level on that. But rather than focus on where they are compared to others, I really just want to see that they are progressing, and that they truly understand the material before moving on. We decide at the end of each year what we would like to study for the next. Sometimes we "go back" and repeat something they learned in public school, but did not really grasp. (for instance -- we did a unit on the American Revolution this year -- which most schools cover in 4th or 5th grade, but since we are living just outside Boston, the opportunity to actually visit the places we learned about was too good to pass up)By learning what they are interested in, rather than what is "required" I think they remain involved and retain more of the lessons. We do make sure that they are learning new things each year, and that what they cover is neither too easy or too advanced. And if we find that something just isn't working out, we have enough flexbility to "dump it" ad try something new. I use a mix of purchased curriculum, library resources, and book store finds to round out our studies. I believe that having a solid base of math skills; being able to write correctly, to spell well and put together reports that are grammatical and that make sense; knowing how to write letters and college-style essays; learning to appreciate all types of literature (from classics to "fluff"); and studying the basic sciences, world history and current events will be enough to have them ready for college. To me -- the most important thing is that they remain excited about learning, that they try their best (even when the subject is not their favorite), and that as a family we continue to grow intellectually, physically, spirtually and emotionally. ======================================== MESSAGE: If you had to do it all over again... AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 9:55 a.m. What would you change/improve/reduce/increase in your experience in homeschooling middle schoolers and/or high schoolers? Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: And when we say yes... AUTHOR: PattiC DATE: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 10:40 a.m. Response To: The inevitable question: Are you going to homeschool thru High School? Author: Cecilia Date: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 8:24 a.m. there is a dead pause before they leap in with their arguments, point of view, etc. It does tend to take the wind out of ones sails when others have a complete lack of comprehension what an entire labor of love we have undertaken and the true joy that accompanies our homeschooling lifestyles. And Cecilia, I was always the overacheiver whom everyone always looked up to, a very sensible girl, a very intelligent girl, etc. So the reaction I am getting is more along the lines: Oh my, what has come over HER to try something so different , so radical, this isn't at all like the girl we know.... :-) > How many times do you get asked > that question? I get asked that from > the same people at least 3 times a year, > and from stragers too. But it usually > comes from people that have known me > for a long time. > After I answer, "yes..." > I get the feeling they must have their > doubts about my ability to do it. I > get the feeling they might be thinking > "Is this the Cecilia we know who's > made so many dumb mistakes in life?" > > People change, for crying out loud! > Besides I like learning and that keeps > me growing intellectually, and spiritually. > > In our home my only daughter will > be going into 7th grade next school > year and I've been planning her curriculum > for the last two years. That is something > that the people who ask the question > about homeschooling thru high school > can't see. > They don't see the planning, the > effort, the prayer, and the commitment > that goes into homeschooling, whether > it's first grade or ninth grade. Homeschooling > doesn't just happen. > ======================================== MESSAGE: 1 regret AUTHOR: PattiC DATE: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 10:43 a.m. Response To: If you had to do it all over again... Author: Giovanna Date: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 9:55 a.m. That I didn't start homeschooling my children sooner than I did!!!! :-) > What would you change/improve/reduce/increase > in your experience in homeschooling > middle schoolers and/or high schoolers? > > Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: How are you keeping track of transcripts? AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 12:31 p.m. Response To: How are you keeping track of transcripts? Author: Jody C. Date: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 8:56 p.m. Our Home School organization keeps transcripts. They also have a high school graduation for all of the children around the state who belong to that group. I keep a very detailed planning book and grades record, too. I have a three ring binder into which I put the plans, bibliographies of books read, field trips, and grades. I use the plastic page protectors to hold standardized test results, immunization info. and awards received etc. I have a section for each year, so that I can use a thumb index and find the exact year and info that I need. It is very easy when it is done as I go along. I also keep an attendance form. It has all days of the week...I fill in the dates Ex. At the end of each line, I have three columns: one for the days in class, one for the days absent, one for the total days in that line. I count these up as I go along. At the end of the year, I know exactly how many days she was in class, how many of the required days she was ill, and how many total school days we had. If asked, I can go back to any given day of the year or of past years and tell anyone what dd was doing...was she in class, out ill, at a field trip, or on vacation? Again, if kept up it is very easy. I usually spend a few mimutes on records each week. Liz G. > I have a 9th grader and I'm thinking > I should make up some type of transcript > which would list his course work, however, > we do not give grades. It's either pass/fail. > > I do grade essays and research > papers. > How are you keeping track and are > you figuring credit/hours for your high > school students? Does it even matter? > Our state does not demand anything but > attendance. I'm sure a college will > only ask for ACT test and a signed check...right? > > Your views please. Thanks > Jody ======================================== MESSAGE: High School? I's funny you ask! AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 1:01 p.m. Response To: The inevitable question: Are you going to homeschool thru High School? Author: Cecilia Date: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 8:24 a.m. I was at a bridal shower last Saturday and was asked that very question. My answer was, "Probably we will home school her throughout high school." Then the inquisitive party took the usual line......"But she needs to attend high school to get socialized." I try to be cool and understanding, but sometimes, this really gets to me. The interested party, this time, was a one time social worker who left work to be a stay at home mom. WHile I commend her for that, she now has a little too much time to meddle into everyone's business but her own OMHO. I took a deep breath and (in the nicest voice I could muster up) said, "For the life of me, I can't understand why everyone thinks that the only way a child can be socialized is through the public high schools. My daughter. is the most social creature I know. What, pray tell, can the public schools do that I haven't already done? Of course, I guess she could learn how to pierce her nose, lips, naval, or tongue, and....she could learn how to spike her hair and dye it green or pink." I was offended by this woman and was prepared to go on, but she saw the folly of her own question and saved me the trouble by saying that she, too, was worried about the influence of the ps on her own grand daughter. Some people just don't think, while others are just plain obnoxious and surrender when we call their bluff. Liz G. > How many times do you get asked > that question? I get asked that from > the same people at least 3 times a year, > and from stragers too. But it usually > comes from people that have known me > for a long time. > After I answer, "yes..." > I get the feeling they must have their > doubts about my ability to do it. I > get the feeling they might be thinking > "Is this the Cecilia we know who's > made so many dumb mistakes in life?" > > People change, for crying out loud! > Besides I like learning and that keeps > me growing intellectually, and spiritually. > > In our home my only daughter will > be going into 7th grade next school > year and I've been planning her curriculum > for the last two years. That is something > that the people who ask the question > about homeschooling thru high school > can't see. > They don't see the planning, the > effort, the prayer, and the commitment > that goes into homeschooling, whether > it's first grade or ninth grade. Homeschooling > doesn't just happen. > ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: How do you know the level of work? AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 1:12 p.m. Response To: How do you know the level of work? Author: Nedra Date: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 4:49 p.m. Some things that a student should achieve before going into high school are the following: know and correctly use the 8 parts of speech, know and correctly use verbals, know and correctly use phrases and clauses, know and correctly use and punctuate compound sentences, complex sentences, compound-copmplex sentences, write a sentence and topic outline and use it to write an essay or researach paper, write a bibliography (one author, two or more authors, periodicals, videos, etc.), write comparison and contrast (both ways), know the basis sentence formats, write using parallelled grammar, write a topic sentence and a thesis, know how to write a good paragraph...that's all I can think of off hand, but there is probably many more that I have left out. However, if they can do the above, they are probably ahead of most conventional schooled students. In Lit....know the tools of literature...imagery, personification, simile, metaphor, alliteration, points of view, characterization, mood, theme, connotation, denotation,..sorry, my memory fails me. Good luck. Liz G. > Hi, > I am very glad to see this topic. > This is our fourth year hsing and things > are going great ....but I have this > gnawing doubt. My oldest is in sixth > grade and I keep thinking, gee this > is middle school what should we be adding? > He tests great on standardized tests > and he completes boy scout work with > boys his age. I know this is probably > all in my mind. Did any of you change > much with middle school? We are not > using a packaged cirriculum. We do units > on the Hirsch books, Saxon Math, Understanding > Writing, etc. I hope to continue hsing > straight through high school so I want > to build up to high school level work. > How do you go about it? I am going to > get Cafi Cohen's book at the next book > exhibit I go to. I appreciate any comments > about middle school. Thanks, Nedra ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: If you had to do it all over again... AUTHOR: Donna in IN DATE: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 3:18 p.m. Response To: If you had to do it all over again... Author: Giovanna Date: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 9:55 a.m. I wish I had started with an actual curriculum instead of choosing from different areas and giving myself so much work. Had I started with something like Alpha Omega (not textbooks though) or something on that order, I would have been more organized and the kids' experience their first year would have been better. I still feel the same for next year too! Love Donna ======================================== MESSAGE: To co-op or not to co-op AUTHOR: Liz Messick DATE: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 4:09 p.m. Do your kids enjoy having some subjects or learning experiences with other kids, or do they prefer to work alone? My daughter is very active in outside activities - sports, music, etc. - but she isn't interested in, say, studying a novel with a homeschooled friend, or doing a science unit together. She prefers to do those things on her own. When she gets together with a friend, she wants the time to be completely theirs, with no adult-imposed structure on it. Good or bad? How do your kids feel about science groups, writing workshops, and the like? Liz ======================================== MESSAGE: Making all your mistakes on the first one! AUTHOR: Ann in NC DATE: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 4:38 p.m. Response To: If you had to do it all over again... Author: Giovanna Date: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 9:55 a.m. > What would you change/improve/reduce/increase > in your experience in homeschooling > middle schoolers and/or high schoolers? > Well...I guess I feel as if I'm getting a chance to do it over again, now that #1 is off to college, and I have one in high school and two in middle school. I wish I had put more energy into the social aspect of it. We moved when my eldest was entering 9th grade, and we didn't have many high-school aged homeschoolers in our group here. I never thought of that as a big deal, since she's not particularly socail. But I think she would have had more fun if she had more friends around. So, now I'm doubling efforts to have a group of friends for my younger kids. In our homeschool group, MANY kids go back to school in 6th grade. What we've done this year to make up for that is to really put some effort into activities for the older kids -- a bowling day, putting on a play, an 'investment club', etc. I'm hoping that will help my kids get over the loss of friends who go to school. And that it might encourage some other kids to continue homeschooling. Sigh... I'm also much more relaxed about the college thing! Whew...I wasted a lot of energy thinking and planning and worrying about it. And I think I made my daughter crazy about it too! So...I'm TRYING not to be that way with the next one. Ann ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: How do you know the level of work? AUTHOR: Laura in SC DATE: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 7:25 p.m. Response To: Re: How do you know the level of work? Author: Liz Date: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 1:12 p.m. Wow, Liz! I have a B.S. in Mechanical Engineering (and I graduated from high school before that ), and I don't even know what half of those things are that you mentioned! My oldest is only 9yo, so I have some time to figure this out, I hope. Laura ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Some General Resource Book Suggestions... AUTHOR: Von in NC DATE: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 8:12 p.m. Response To: Some General Resource Book Suggestions... Author: Barb K (Hs-ing in Southern Maine) Date: Friday, 5 March 1999, at 6:18 a.m. I think I would also have a good encyclopedia, like World Book. I remember many many years ago when my father was thinking of taking the family to Alaska we were going to take the World Book and that was to be our primary text book and we kids were going to have to read it from cover to cover. > would you have some must > have favorites to survive-in-the-Alpine-wilderness > type books? ======================================== MESSAGE: Larua, you probably know more than you realize AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Thursday, 11 March 1999, at 5:58 a.m. My dd is ten years old. If you follow a good grammar program all of the items which I mentioned are included. I have used the same books for years because they work for me. Many of the text books created for a conventional school situation are repetative, but each year they introduce a larger piece of the puzzle. Because we school year round, I use the repetition for a review and cover the new material..then move on. Many home schoolers use Easy Grammar. They say it is very good. I know that it covers many of the items about which I wrote. I like my books that incorporate the writing with the grammar. If a student can't apply the grammar in their writing, the lesson is not effective, IMHO. However, you can do that yourself. I had what I called "my redipes." I would cover elements of grammar and then tell my students to write me a paragraph. They would be given a list of elements to include: a. a sentence in the s-v-do format b. a compound sentence punctuated with a semicolon c. a sentence with an adjective phrase d. a sentence containing an appositive. The idea is to make them control their writing and not allow the writing to control them. It's not as difficult as it sounds. Just teach grammar and then have them use it each step of the way. Before long it will be a good habit, and habits are hard to break. Good luck. Liz G. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Larua, you probably know more than you realize AUTHOR: Laura in SC DATE: Thursday, 11 March 1999, at 8:33 a.m. Response To: Larua, you probably know more than you realize Author: Liz Date: Thursday, 11 March 1999, at 5:58 a.m. Thanks for the kind words, Liz. I recently took an online test to evaluate my grammar knowledge. I did fine on the very elementary terminology, and excellent on the part where I had to choose which sentence was correct. But when it came to identifying what I consider more advanced grammar terms, I was simply guessing. My father was a technical editor/writer. I grew up with him correcting my grammar, at least verbally. He didn't give me rules, but indicated correct usage when I made a mistake. In school, I was in gifted classes, which meant we were allowed to opt out of many traditional classes. For example, in my junior and senior years of high school, I took Journalism as my English elective. Of course, I did learn some very basic grammar in grade school (noun, adjective, adverb). The only other grammar I learned was while taking Spanish. I know this is an area I will be learning right along with my sons. Laura ======================================== MESSAGE: Learning Language Arts Through Literature... AUTHOR: Jody C. DATE: Thursday, 11 March 1999, at 12:46 p.m. Response To: Larua, you probably know more than you realize Author: Liz Date: Thursday, 11 March 1999, at 5:58 a.m. Laura... > My dd is ten years old. If you > follow a good grammar program all of > the items which I mentioned are included. > I agree with this...I think that the best way to learn grammar and writing skills is to actually write and read good literature. I feel that the Learing Language Arts Through Lit. is one of the best programs for doing just this. I had to chuckle when I read the post of all that our students should know after their high school years. My 15yos is learning many of those things now through LLATL. Of course, he thinks they are unimportant (simile, metaphor) but I tell him that he'll be glad he's been exposed to it. I'm just thankful for a good program which lays all this out sensibly. Jody ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: If you had to do it all over again... AUTHOR: maicie DATE: Thursday, 11 March 1999, at 8:41 p.m. Response To: If you had to do it all over again... Author: Giovanna Date: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 9:55 a.m. Initially, I thought I should have researched homeschooling methods more thoroughly. Now, I think just jumping in was probably the best method for us. Too much planning would have been a disaster. So, I guess if I had to do it over, I would have started sooner but only so we would have had more time to deschool and discover each child's personal methods of learning. Our college-bound child has had to deal with a time schedule more than our noncollege-bound son but both feel the pressure of finishing up high school. We have to remind ourselves daily that we will reach our goals...but on our time schedule, not someone else's. Hmm, math or bowling, math or bowling? Grab your coats, kids. There's a lane with our name on it out there. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: If you had to do it all over again... AUTHOR: Jody C. DATE: Thursday, 11 March 1999, at 8:46 p.m. Response To: If you had to do it all over again... Author: Giovanna Date: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 9:55 a.m. > What would you change/improve/reduce/increase > in your experience in homeschooling > middle schoolers and/or high schoolers? > > Giovanna So far (I have one in 9th grade and one in 6th and more below) I'd say that I'm going to continue to allow my kids to explore their interests more. Everyone has a niche! My 9th grader is just really taking off in auto mechanics and blooming with it...Amazing!! And my 6th grader excells in music and literature...a real book worm. I sometimes feel that I am too strict with studies and wish that I took more days to watch birds build nests or build bird feeders together, paint more watercolors...things that they'll remember when they leave home. Jody ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Larua, you probably know more than you realize AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 6:41 a.m. Response To: Re: Larua, you probably know more than you realize Author: Laura in SC Date: Thursday, 11 March 1999, at 8:33 a.m. Get yourself a good grammar book with the teachers edition. Some of the elem. teachers I know have no better knowledge of grammar than the average non-teaching parent. Grammar isn't taught (as a course) in any teaching program about which I am familiar. I graduated from Charleston Southern (back when it was still Baptist), but not from Elem. Ed, and none of my Elem. Ed. friends took courses in grammar. When I began teaching for the Catholic schools, Bishop England High School sent me several sheets of "suggestions." I nearly died! How was I going to cover all of that material, but if one follows a good grammar book and is diligent, it's done. It's all between the front and back cover of a good book. Everyone who teaches has a lot to learn. I know that I do. BTW, where in SC are you? We are in the Charleston area. Liz G. > Thanks for the kind words, Liz. > > I recently took an online test > to evaluate my grammar knowledge. I > did fine on the very elementary terminology, > and excellent on the part where I had > to choose which sentence was correct. > But when it came to identifying what > I consider more advanced grammar terms, > I was simply guessing. > My father was a technical editor/writer. > I grew up with him correcting my grammar, > at least verbally. He didn't give me > rules, but indicated correct usage when > I made a mistake. > In school, I was in gifted classes, > which meant we were allowed to opt out > of many traditional classes. For example, > in my junior and senior years of high > school, I took Journalism as my English > elective. > Of course, I did learn some very > basic grammar in grade school (noun, > adjective, adverb). The only other grammar > I learned was while taking Spanish. > > I know this is an area I will be > learning right along with my sons. > Laura > ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Learning Language Arts Through Literature... AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 6:44 a.m. Response To: Learning Language Arts Through Literature... Author: Jody C. Date: Thursday, 11 March 1999, at 12:46 p.m. Jody, What is LLATL? We are always looking for good grammar programs. They seem to be right up there with good math programs. Liz G. > Laura... > I agree with this...I think that > the best way to learn grammar and writing > skills is to actually write and read > good literature. I feel that the Learing > Language Arts Through Lit. is one of > the best programs for doing just this. > > I had to chuckle when I read the > post of all that our students should > know after their high school years. > My 15yos is learning many of those things > now through LLATL. Of course, he thinks > they are unimportant (simile, metaphor) > but I tell him that he'll be glad he's > been exposed to it. I'm just thankful > for a good program which lays all this > out sensibly. > Jody ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Larua, you probably know more than you realize AUTHOR: Laura in SC DATE: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 7:57 a.m. Response To: Re: Larua, you probably know more than you realize Author: Liz Date: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 6:41 a.m. > Get yourself a good grammar book > with the teachers edition. Yes, I suppose I'll have to do this. I'd much rather teach trigonometry or physics..... > BTW, where in SC are you? > We are in the Charleston area. Liz G. We're in the Upstate --- Spartanburg County. Almost as far away from you as we can get while still being in the same state. But SC is such an itty bitty state, it's still only a few hours' drive away. (We moved here from CA last year, where you can drive two very long days along the coast and still be in the state.) Laura ======================================== MESSAGE: Ann, I can relate SO well to this AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 8:25 a.m. Response To: Making all your mistakes on the first one! Author: Ann in NC Date: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 4:38 p.m. But I have to admit, I'm still experimenting. I get these new theories, you know, and have to test them out! Lately, I've been convinced that what I did wrong with Ariel in math was to try to teach her all the conventional algorithms. She was the kind of kid who always wanted to figure things out on her own. Problem is, Laurel would rather be taught the algorithms. She's the "show me how to do it, and I'll do it" sort. Hunter, on the other hand, is more like Ariel -- he doesn't care how everyone else does something. He'd rather find his own path to the answer. So I'm trying to help two kids get through algebra and having to use a completely different approach for each. Augh! It gets confusing. But I wish I'd been this flexible the first time around. Taken all together, I just wish I were better at making the most of every single day. My homeschooling regrets are the same as my lifetime regrets -- I wish I'd squeezed a little more out of each waking minute, instead of letting all the days slide by. There's a tendency to look back and think, "Oh, I wish I'd done more of this and some of that, and why didn't I ever do this other?" Bother! One big regret I have is that for the longest time, I focused too much on the oldest. I think that had to do with being more nervous about what would happen next with her. I felt I could relax a little more with the younger two, because "I'd been there before" -- but it wasn't really fair for anyone. Ariel got too much of my attention, and Laurel and Hunter didn't get enough. Luckily, my husband saw what I was doing and suggested (in his gentle way) that I might want to rearrange my thinking. ;-) So I worked hard to redistribute my attention more evenly among all three. > I'm also much more relaxed about > the college thing! Whew...I wasted a > lot of energy thinking and planning > and worrying about it. And I think I > made my daughter crazy about it too! > So...I'm TRYING not to be that way with > the next one. Hear, hear! With that first one, we really have to cut a path through the jungle of worry and doubt and misgivings, don't we? Big sad sigh! And yet...the next ones bring on new concerns, simply because they're different. I know that what I did with Ariel "worked," but I didn't do everything exactly the same with the others, so now where am I? Help! (Do you ever feel this way, too?) :-D Laurel said to me this week, "I think I want a whole lot of structure for a while." So here I am, helping her draw up a syllabus. It's always SOMEthing, isn't it? Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Does a laid-back style have negative consequences later? AUTHOR: dmx DATE: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 9:34 a.m. I have a recurring worry that I thought some of you might be able to address. Our lifestyle & homeschool work is very relaxed. We are what I guess would be eclectic homeschoolers. We work out of a math text and make up the rest as we go along. Several days a week, there are specified hours to work on 'bookwork', but we follow no set curriculum. We try to follow my 13 yo's interests and squeeze in what I feel is essential as well. He has been in 4-H, played on baseball teams and is now in a chess club. But we have very few intense time schedule needs. Getting him to 'hurry' is like pulling teeth. My worry is that it will be hard for him to follow a more intense schedule, which college or other pursuits might require. (We assume he will go to college, but are open to other alternatives). Any thoughts? ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Larua, you probably know more than you realize AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 9:36 a.m. Response To: Re: Larua, you probably know more than you realize Author: Laura in SC Date: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 7:57 a.m. I would gladly trade Eng. lessons for Trig. My DH is a math and science teacher...physics is his specialty, too. We plan to move to Rutherfordton, NC, which is closer to your area than this is. Eng. is so much easier to teach than Math. We lived in San Francisco some time ago. We enjoyed CA when we were there, but we really don't miss it anymore. Liz G. > > Yes, I suppose I'll have to do > this. I'd much rather teach trigonometry > or physics..... > We're in the Upstate --- Spartanburg > County. Almost as far away from you > as we can get while still being in the > same state. But SC is such an itty bitty > state, it's still only a few hours' > drive away. (We moved here from CA last > year, where you can drive two very long > days along the coast and still be in > the state.) > Laura ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Does a laid-back style have negative consequences later? AUTHOR: Leslie DATE: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 5:02 p.m. Response To: Does a laid-back style have negative consequences later? Author: dmx Date: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 9:34 a.m. Are you sure your son is college bound? The reason I ask is because I have had to re-think these same things with my son. He is almost 16 and I always thought he was college bound because he is very bright but he also lacks the ability to discipline himself to do the things he finds uninteresting. If he likes the topic you can't get him off of it. I'm thinking that he is more suited to a trade school where he can focos on his passions rather than some arbitrary academics that he finds irrelevant to his life. ======================================== MESSAGE: But, but, but.... AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 5:10 p.m. Response To: Re: Does a laid-back style have negative consequences later? Author: Leslie Date: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 5:02 p.m. He is almost 16 and I always thought he was college bound because he is very bright but he also lacks the ability to discipline himself to do the things he finds uninteresting. If he likes the topic you can't get him off of it. You have just described my HUSBAND and he just now finished graduate school! I do not believe that college is a must but I do believe in leaving all options open. Everyone that goes to college has to put up with the mundane subjects that have nothing to do with the real major. It's just all part of a hurdle you jump to get to your goal. My husband is extremely smart. Very high IQ. I would not, however, call him "disciplined" or "super motivated". He gets by with the things he dislikes and does very well with the things he loves....... I guess like most of us. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: If you had to do it all over again... AUTHOR: SandiH DATE: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 5:15 p.m. Response To: Re: If you had to do it all over again... Author: Jody C. Date: Thursday, 11 March 1999, at 8:46 p.m. If I had to do it over again, I think I would've unschooled in the younger years, so my children could have found their passions and been less dependent on me and my curriculum. Even though they're homeschooled, they still need to be deschooled(from me) I would've relaxed more and gone more places with them--museums, zoos, parks, bike rides, etc.. I tried to get them into too many activities so they could be with other hsers. I should've done more purely social playdays and then done activities on our own. Most field trips with large groups were a waste of time--all the kids wanted to do was socialize and could have cared less about the places. It was much more effective to go to those places by ourselves or with only one or two other families. I wish I had stayed home more!! Can't think of anymore right now Sandi, hsing for 7 years ======================================== MESSAGE: Does college equal success? AUTHOR: Leslie DATE: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 6:04 p.m. Response To: But, but, but.... Author: Giovanna Date: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 5:10 p.m. > I do not believe that college is > a must but I do believe in leaving all > options open. Everyone that goes to > college has to put up with the mundane > subjects that have nothing to do with > the real major. It's just all part of > a hurdle you jump to get to your goal. I agree with what you are saying, Giovanna, but what is the goal? And, does the lack of a sheep skin mean that the goal can't be reached? My brother was a very bright man. He had a very high IQ and was offered scholarships to many colleges, yet he chose his own path. He ended up working in a marine supply shop and bringing this shop into the new millenium technology and writing many computer programs to update their international import and export business. He never had a day of training in this field except for what he taught himself on his own computer. He was well respected and well known world-wide for his knowledge and skill. He loved his job and couldn't wait to get there everyday. The lack of a sheep skin made no difference. His drive made up for his lack of "proper credintials". Many people in history have succeded without college. I'm not saying college is not important. All I'm saying is that life doesn't end because you don't have a college degree. My son is so much like my brother. They are both square pegs in a round hole world. Pushing them through those round holes may not be the answer. Leslie ======================================== MESSAGE: No it doesn't AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 6:23 p.m. Response To: Does college equal success? Author: Leslie Date: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 6:04 p.m. I agree with everything you are saying. What I was trying to communicate is to not automatically strike out college from possible future opportunities if a teen may not seem to have self discipline or the "right attitude" for it at this moment. God knows my husband didn't. But he made it. What I am saying is to leave all the options open. You just never know what could happen. And just so you know. I totally agree with you. College isn't the only way to success. There are many roads. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Oddly enough... AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 7:33 p.m. Response To: Does college equal success? Author: Leslie Date: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 6:04 p.m. We've been discussing that very question around the dinner table tonight. My husband (a brilliant man, by the way) never finished college and chose instead to pursue his dreams and his craft (woodworking). He has some regrets (at 50) about that decision now and wishes he'd stayed in school. Actually, what he most regrets is not having had to savvy to seek out the particular kind of college education that best suited his needs and personality. At any rate, he wonders now if he cheated himself by not having had the patience to stick it out and get those credentials. I, on the other hand, who DID get a degree, don't believe that my "credentials" have been particularly useful to me. Kind of backwards, isn't it? The main focus of our discussion tonight has been on our children and THEIR plans. Laurel, who wants more than anything to be a chef, has spent the last 6 months vacillating between choosing college or culinary school. Should she do one or the other? Should she do both? If both, which should come first? At this point, she wants to attend college first, but she's worried about how long it will all take, because she wants to have a family someday, too. So many dreams and goals! So many decisions! What's a poor girl to do? There are too many stories out there of wildly successful people who chose NOT to go the college route for me to believe that college is a prerequisite for success. Obviously, it isn't in every case. I do think, though, that a lot depends on the person and the goals that person has. It stands to reason that someone who wants to be a doctor or an editor or an architect will probably need a college degree to do any of those things in a traditional fashion. Maybe "traditional" is the key word in that sentence, though. Is it Herbert Kohl who wrote the book, The Question is College? Has anyone here read it? I haven't, but I've been thinking of trying to find a copy of it somewhere. It might help Laurel with her decision, one way or the other. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Easy Grammar by Wanda Phillips and... AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 8:14 p.m. Response To: Easy Grammar by Wanda Phillips and... Author: Cecilia Date: Tuesday, 9 March 1999, at 8:12 a.m. Wanda, Do you also use the Easy Writing? If so, how do you like it? Liz G. > use the "The Complete Book > of Diagrams" by Mary Daly. > By pulling a sentence apart and > diagramming it you can identify every > part of it, the subject, the verb, all > the adjectives and adverbs, prepositions, > or conjuctions, and direct objects and > so on. > Anyhow, doing that once a week > and using "Easy Grammar" should > do it. "Easy Grammar" doesn't > take alot of time. It's a workbook format. > > I like it because it teaches the > student to identify the prepositional > phrase in a sentence then sequentially > moves along from there. > ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: To co-op or not to co-op AUTHOR: Donna in IN DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 5:17 a.m. Response To: To co-op or not to co-op Author: Liz Messick Date: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 4:09 p.m. We're not fortunate to have a hs group that is interested in that. My kids don't "socialize" a whole lot - besides scouts, pe, and church. If your dd isn't interested in it, that shouldn't be a problem. Of course, maybe they haven't offered anything she's interested in either. Either way, not to worry. She may change her mind later and right now that gives you one less thing to run around town for! Love and blessings to you Donna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: If you had to do it all over again... AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 6:26 a.m. Response To: If you had to do it all over again... Author: Giovanna Date: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 9:55 a.m. I regret not home schooling my first five children. Liz G. > What would you change/improve/reduce/increase > in your experience in homeschooling > middle schoolers and/or high schoolers? > > Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Apprenticeships... AUTHOR: Jody C. DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 7:38 a.m. Response To: Oddly enough... Author: Cerelle Date: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 7:33 p.m. Cerelle, What about apprenticeships under a chef? Could she work as a "gopher" for someone for free and learn a little before she committed the time/money into chef's school? Maybe she'll find that it isn't really what she wanted after all? > At this point, she wants to attend > college first, but she's worried about > how long it will all take, because she > wants to have a family someday, too. > So many dreams and goals! So many decisions! > What's a poor girl to do? > There are too many stories out > there of wildly successful people who > chose NOT to go the college route for > me to believe that college is a prerequisite > for success. My son...15yo found a nearby mechanic who has taken him "under his wing" and is teaching him TONS of things...how to replace brake shoes, replace clutches, fix master cylinders and soon...putting in a new engine! All for free!! By the way, this mechanic has never had any formal mechanic's training, but learned from his father. He repairs everything from cars to euchlids! I once heard a story of someone who "thought" she wanted to be a veteranarian until she went to work for one and assisted. She realized she did not want to take care of sick animals after all! Good thing she didn't get all the way through vet school to figure that out!! Jody > Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Good hands-on Biology and Chemistry? AUTHOR: Jody C. DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 7:42 a.m. I am wondering if any of you have a personal favorite biology and/or chemistry course that you'd recommend? I'm considering Abeka Biology and Chemistry, but not certain. My 15yo son loves science...particulary physical science and sciences which are hands-on. We've done many of the TOPS Science labs and love them. Any suggestions? Jody ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Good hands-on Biology and Chemistry? AUTHOR: Kysa DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 9:22 a.m. Response To: Good hands-on Biology and Chemistry? Author: Jody C. Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 7:42 a.m. Although I do recommend ABeka Biology, I DO NOT recommend ABeka Chemistry. If you must use a text, I recommend Bob Jones Univeristy press for Chemistry. It is an excellent and indepth text (I use it to tutor college freshman), but all the explanations are intended for someone who does not already understand. (I've hear good things about Apologia, but have never seen any of their material.) I recommend doing some laboratory activities as well, but many parents are intimidated (I am a biochemist.) Even simple 'kitchen chemistry' can illustrate a complex chemistry idea. I recommend 'Experiences in Chemistry' and 'Experiences in Biology' by K. Julischer as good experiments and ones most households could put together with little extra supplies. I highly recommend Nasco Science as a cheap source of science lab equipment and supplies--especially biology dissection material. I used texts with my oldest, but am making my own curricula for my daughter who dislikes science. I try to tie it in to her unit studies (has worked amazingly well) and she is using Usborne science books for reference. I have several lists of activities I have done with my own children and neighboring home school teens. If anyone has specific questions about sicence lab activities and how to put together equipment from household items, e-mail me directly. pabulum@itctel.com Kysa ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Apprenticeships... AUTHOR: Leslie DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 10:02 a.m. Response To: Apprenticeships... Author: Jody C. Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 7:38 a.m. > I once heard a story of someone > who "thought" she wanted to > be a veteranarian until she went to > work for one and assisted. She realized > she did not want to take care of sick > animals after all! Good thing she didn't > get all the way through vet school to > figure that out!! I've heard these stories too and this is exactly why apprenticeships are so valuable. My neice wanted to be a marine biologist until she found out that she had to dive with sharks. She thought she would be working with those sweet little manatees all the time. I told her mother that she needed to go down to Sea World and volunteer to clean the fish for feeding time and see if that's really what she wanted to do. She started to investigate further and found that this really wasn't for her. If not apprenticeships, atleast good investigation of the field is necessary before spending lots of money and time training for a field that is different from what you thought it would be. I believe that's why we have so many college graduates who function in a totally different field than what they majored in college. Leslie ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Apprenticeships... AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 10:20 a.m. Response To: Apprenticeships... Author: Jody C. Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 7:38 a.m. > What about apprenticeships under > a chef? Could she work as a "gopher" > for someone for free and learn a little > before she committed the time/money > into chef's school? Maybe she'll find > that it isn't really what she wanted > after all? This is exactly what Laurel has been doing for the past year (she started when she was 15). She LOVES the work, and now trains new hires, runs the kitchen herself several days a week, etc. A client of my husband's recently loaned Laurel a book called "The Making of a Chef." The woman's nephew thought he wanted to be a chef until he read this book, at which time he changed his mind. Well...when Laurel finished the book, she was more convinced than ever that this is what she wants to do! However, she does want to be smart about it. She wants the business training and know-how to be able to be her own boss. Her dream is to have her own restaurant and to author books about the "philosophy of food." (I'm telling you, this girl has more ambition in her pinky finger than I've ever had in my whole body.) She's thinking of majoring in philosophy while picking up some business courses on the side, and THEN going on to culinary school, if she deems it necessary at that point. What worries her is how she's going to find time to get married and have 6 kids and homeschool them! LOL! Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Exactly! AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 10:41 a.m. Response To: Re: Apprenticeships... Author: Leslie Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 10:02 a.m. > I believe that's why we have so many college > graduates who function in a totally > different field than what they majored > in college. Yes! My oldest originally expected to major in journalism once she got to college, but after her apprenticeships during high school, she realized she enjoyed her job at the museum much more than her job at the newspaper, even though she did well at both. Now she wants to pursue "alternative education through museums" as her life's calling, and is thus better able to make her college training count toward her future success. We have a wonderful friend (my age) who majored in physics in college. But to help pay his way through school, he got a job in the college library and discovered he LOVED librarianship. So after college, he became a librarian! There's nothing wrong with that, really, I don't think. I mean, he enjoyed learning about physics in college, and it didn't hurt his career (as a reference librarian) to have a physics background. But the advice he gave us years ago, as far as how to help the kids do well in life, was not to worry ahead of time too terribly much about college, but to get them started doing what they liked to do. It was GOLDEN advice. A person's teen years can be so productive if he has the time (and encouragement from others) to begin doing the kind of work he enjoys. And I think that alone can make the difference between a happy, fulfilled teen and an unhappy, angst-ridden one. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: add me to your list of stories AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 12:01 p.m. Response To: Re: Apprenticeships... Author: Leslie Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 10:02 a.m. > I've heard these stories too and > this is exactly why apprenticeships > are so valuable. My neice wanted to > be a marine biologist until she found > out that she had to dive with sharks. > She thought she would be working with > those sweet little manatees all the > time. My story: I thought for sure that my calling in life was to be an elementary school teacher. Well, what happened? I had an opportunity to start observing classes while I was in college. I got to observe even at the high school level! I observed enough to know that I would hate being a teacher. This is before I had children.... before the word "homeschooling" was even part of my vocabulary. Folks, I knew there would be NO WAY I could effectively teach 25+ children at the same time when they were all in different levels (despite the fact that they all claimed to be in "2nd grade"). I knew then that I could never do it. Impossible task!! So.... I never finished college and frankly, I have NO IDEA what type of degree I would pursue if I returned. Well, I take that back. I think I would enjoy going into some type of field in agriculture, BELIEVE IT OR NOT! My husband changed majors half way through. I know a lot of people, as a matter of fact, that changed majors. Wasted time... wasted money. So what is the moral of the story? It's VERY important that we allow our children the freedom to pursue their interests, to grow as people, to find their uniqueness, to indulge in their interests.... more important than stuffing their heads with textbooks and facts. It doesn't really matter how much algebra they know (although knowing algebra IS important, don't get me wrong) if they don't know themselves well enough or understand their choice of career. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Learning Language Arts Through Literature... AUTHOR: Jody C. DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 1:22 p.m. Response To: Re: Learning Language Arts Through Literature... Author: Liz Date: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 6:44 a.m. > Jody, What is LLATL? We are always > looking for good grammar programs. They > seem to be right up there with good > math programs. Liz G. Liz, LLATL is an abbreviation for Learning Language Arts Through Literature. It is a literature-based English program. It starts in the lower grades through highschool. It's written by Diane Welch and Susan Simpson and can be purchased through most homeschool catalogs...Timberdoodle for one. I didn't start them until about 4th grade and it is plenty soon enough I think. Jody ======================================== MESSAGE: Thank you, thank you! AUTHOR: Jody C. DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 1:33 p.m. Response To: Re: Good hands-on Biology and Chemistry? Author: Kysa Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 9:22 a.m. > > I recommend 'Experiences in Chemistry' > and 'Experiences in Biology' by K. Julischer > as good experiments and ones most households > could put together with little extra > supplies. I highly recommend Nasco Science > as a cheap source of science lab equipment > and supplies--especially biology dissection > material. Kysa, Have you seen Tops Science? I have used it with great success and it is very hands-on. My son has done the labs called: Solutions, analysis, cohesion/adhesion, rocks and minerals. Would you consider this "kitchen chemistry"? I'd like your opinion of Tops...their website is www.topscience.org They do include one experiment per Tops Subject. ) she is using Usborne science > books for reference. I love this idea! I also have 4 younger children, one of which is 6th grade and not crazy about science. We've done a little dissection which my dd did love...she skinned out the entire snake and removed all the organs. Maybe it's just that she doesn't like the physical sciences! I may be emailing you for any suggestions. BTW...when are your writing your book???!! You should! Jody ======================================== MESSAGE: TOPS! AUTHOR: Kysa DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 2:15 p.m. Response To: Thank you, thank you! Author: Jody C. Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 1:33 p.m. > Have you seen Tops Science? I have > used it with great success and it is > very hands-on. My son has done the labs > called: Solutions, analysis, cohesion/adhesion, > rocks and minerals. Would you consider > this "kitchen chemistry"? Yes, this is what I consider kitchen chemistry--mostly that it can be done in your average house! Just because the chemistry is easy, and equipment simple, does not mean it is not a good example of the princeples involved. Too many public schools think a lot of fancy equipment will improve science education. The truth is basic principles MUST be understood first. I liked what I saw at the TOPS web site. I have been teaching chemistry to the 5-11 age group of our home school support group. What I really love is that even young children can understand chemistry if adults tell them they can. (I sometimes have moms that listen just for the science lesson.) The great thing is that once you learn the basics, you can really dig into a subject. $5000 worth of lab equipment may not do as much as a $5 really meaningful demonstration. Kysa ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: add me to your list of stories AUTHOR: Grace DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 2:51 p.m. Response To: add me to your list of stories Author: Giovanna Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 12:01 p.m. It's VERY important that we allow our children the freedom to pursue their interests, to grow as people, to find their uniqueness, to indulge in their interests.... more important than stuffing their heads with textbooks and facts. OH I AGREE!!!!!! Very Well said!!! I know thats what I want for my kids.. I was going to be a vet. until i apprenticed for awhile and realised NO WAY!!!!! Went to college and decided to become a teacher... ,,,anyway...The BEST thing about college for me was it opened up opportunities to study subjects that I never would have dreamed i would have..like archaeology and antropology..It was exciting...I want that to always be open for my kids...opportunities.... This has been neat reading Thanks for sharing... > > My story: > I thought for sure that my calling > in life was to be an elementary school > teacher. Well, what happened? > I had an opportunity to start observing > classes while I was in college. I got > to observe even at the high school level! > I observed enough to know that I would > hate being a teacher. This is before > I had children.... before the word "homeschooling" > was even part of my vocabulary. Folks, > I knew there would be NO WAY I could > effectively teach 25+ children at the > same time when they were all in different > levels (despite the fact that they all > claimed to be in "2nd grade"). > I knew then that I could never do it. > Impossible task!! > So.... > I never finished college and frankly, > I have NO IDEA what type of degree I > would pursue if I returned. Well, I > take that back. I think I would enjoy > going into some type of field in agriculture, > BELIEVE IT OR NOT! > My husband changed majors half > way through. I know a lot of people, > as a matter of fact, that changed majors. > Wasted time... wasted money. > So what is the moral of the story? > > It's VERY important that we allow > our children the freedom to pursue their > interests, to grow as people, to find > their uniqueness, to indulge in their > interests.... more important than stuffing > their heads with textbooks and facts. > It doesn't really matter how much algebra > they know (although knowing algebra > IS important, don't get me wrong) if > they don't know themselves well enough > or understand their choice of career. > > Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Good hands-on Biology and Chemistry?/Abeka/BJU? AUTHOR: Janet in NM DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 3:53 p.m. Response To: Re: Good hands-on Biology and Chemistry? Author: Kysa Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 9:22 a.m. You say you can recommend Abeka's biology, but feel BJU's chemistry is better than Abeka's. Do you prefer Abeka's biology to BJU's? Can you say, specifically, what you feel is the problem with Abeka's chemistry? More difficult to understand? We are considering using a high school program that uses Abeka's science curriculum, and would be interested in hearing about your experiences. Janet > Although I do recommend ABeka Biology, > I DO NOT recommend ABeka Chemistry. > If you must use a text, I recommend > Bob Jones Univeristy press for Chemistry. > It is an excellent and indepth text > (I use it to tutor college freshman), > but all the explanations are intended > for someone who does not already understand. > (I've hear good things about Apologia, > but have never seen any of their material.) > > I recommend doing some laboratory > activities as well, but many parents > are intimidated (I am a biochemist.) > Even simple 'kitchen chemistry' can > illustrate a complex chemistry idea. > I recommend 'Experiences in Chemistry' > and 'Experiences in Biology' by K. Julischer > as good experiments and ones most households > could put together with little extra > supplies. I highly recommend Nasco Science > as a cheap source of science lab equipment > and supplies--especially biology dissection > material. > I used texts with my oldest, but > am making my own curricula for my daughter > who dislikes science. I try to tie it > in to her unit studies (has worked amazingly > well) and she is using Usborne science > books for reference. > I have several lists of activities > I have done with my own children and > neighboring home school teens. If anyone > has specific questions about sicence > lab activities and how to put together > equipment from household items, e-mail > me directly. > pabulum@itctel.com > Kysa ======================================== MESSAGE: Biology and Chemistry?/Abeka/BJU? AUTHOR: Kysa DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 4:16 p.m. Response To: Re: Good hands-on Biology and Chemistry?/Abeka/BJU? Author: Janet in NM Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 3:53 p.m. I feel ABeka has a good order of presentation for their biology. Too many texts are pushing evolution to the point that they start with one celled organisms and work their way toward complex animals/plants. Bob Jones is NOT evolutionary, but does use some of that order of doing things. ABeka starts with flowering plants and trees and the human body. These are things that should be very familiar to students. Then they work their way to birds, reptiles, fish, etc. Each time the student must learn just those few things that are different from the last class of animals. By the time they get to things like lichens and paramecium, they are prepared to learn the info. I do use the ABeka to tutor college students. The last one here was a non-trad trying to finish an elementary ed degree now that her children are grown. She was impressed with the text and wished she was using something like that for her college class (and this was a women who firmly believes in evolution). She just thought the presentation made more sense. I prefer the Bob Jones Chemistry for its explanations. They are intended for people who do not already have an understanding of chemistry. The illustrations are wonderful--and I don't mean for the picture quality. The illustration of an enzyme is a lock and key, then the key can go open anther lock. What a great example! Even a 6 year old can understand that! It is mostly explanatory, with math as a secondary. The emphasis is on understanding the principles. Kysa ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: High School? I's funny you ask! AUTHOR: Janet DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 4:30 p.m. Response To: High School? I's funny you ask! Author: Liz Date: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 1:01 p.m. Liz; I know how you feel about the socialization issue. I get really tired of hearing it. I have started responding by saying, "I thought the kids were sent to school to be educated, not to socialize. When my oldest who is now a Junior in High School was getting ready to start his Freshman year I had a neighbor boy ask me if I was going to send him to school. When I told him no he said you mean you are not going to let him have the experience? I replied by saying, "What experience.? He dropped the subject. I even had someone say to me that I should let him go at least his Senior year so that he could have a reunion. People just don't get it. They think that because they are in high school they no longer need or can be educated at home. Homeschooling is something that we started and we intend to see it through until the end. ======================================== MESSAGE: Writing AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 4:31 p.m. I remember a long time ago Cerelle talking about how her daughter, Ariel, wished she had been a little more prepared for the amount of writing that is required of her now that she is in college. Cerelle.... I'm telling the story right, aren't I? :-) Gee, I hope so. Anyhow, I would like to discuss pratical ways we can get middleschoolers excited about writing. What sort of foundations should be laid BEFORE middle school? What kind of writing should be done during middle school? Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Helping our middle schoolers FLOURISH! AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 4:49 p.m. Children in middle school have received a bad reputation.... and with good reason! So much negative stuff goes on during middle school. Blame it on hormones, blame it on peer pressure, blame it on parent-child relationship. WHATEVER! I know some thing happens during the middle school years. I was at my very worst behavior then. I look back and remember how unmotivated I was during those years. I really didn't care about anything except friends, clothes and... well, I must admit... BOYS! If you've read REVIVING OPHELIA or IN THE SHELTER OF EACH OTHER by Mary Pipher you will certainly agree that our middle schooler's minds are being seduced away from home and into things that are not, in any way, beneficial for them. I recenly heard someone say that middle schoolers need just as much parental involvement, attention, time, and supervision as TODDLERS! How can we encourage our middle schoolers to make the best of this time in their life? How can their life be the exception to the "statistics?" Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: This reminds me of a quote I love AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 4:52 p.m. Response To: add me to your list of stories Author: Giovanna Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 12:01 p.m. > It's VERY important that we allow > our children the freedom to pursue their > interests, to grow as people, to find > their uniqueness, to indulge in their > interests.... more important than stuffing > their heads with textbooks and facts. Giovanna-- Boy, you said that well! It reminded me of something John Holt wrote in his book, Freedom and Beyond: "...[N]o one can find his work, what he really wants to put all of himself into, when everything he does he is made to do by others. This kind of searching must be done freely or not at all. When are we going to give young people a chance to do it?" Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Finding Purpose! AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 5:19 p.m. Response To: This reminds me of a quote I love Author: Cerelle Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 4:52 p.m. >It reminded > me of something John Holt wrote in his > book, Freedom and Beyond: > "...[N]o one can find his > work, what he really wants to put all > of himself into, when everything he > does he is made to do by others. This > kind of searching must be done freely > or not at all. When are we going to > give young people a chance to do it?" > YES! This is exactly what I have been trying to say! But of course, someone else said it better and they said before I did!! :-) This is the big, BIG problem with conventional education! It doesn't allow the child the time or the FREEDOM to find their purpose. Since day one of Kindergarten, children are told what they will learn and when they will learn it. How, pray tell, can someone learn to learn that way???? Now, don't misunderstand..... I do know that we, in many ways, must direct our children in their education. I know we must be involved if they are to learn to read and write proficiently. What I am saying here is that children, because of the "agenda" we set out for them, sometimes fail to find a true passion or interest. There are three things we need to look for in order to guide our children in their specific purpose. According to Marilyn Howshall, author of "Wisdom's Way of Learning" we need to: *Recognize gifts and talents (writing, drawing, building, communicating, managing, etc) *Determine current interests (space, nature, music, electronics, health, cooking, etc) *Examine heart motivations (to teach, preach, find truth, serve, give, why and how things work, etc) A few heart questions to ask are: What is the desire of the heart? What produces fruit? What excites him, creates passion? For what things will he lay down his life, interests or priorities? These are the "signs" within each child that will give us a clue to their destiny. We, as homeschoolers, are at such a unique advantage to help our children become all they are intended to become. Our children's individuality cannot be discovered this easily in a conventional classroom with 20+ other children!!! Now if this isn't enough of a reason to homeschool the middle school years and the high school years then I don't know what is!!! Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Helping our middle schoolers FLOURISH! AUTHOR: Jody C. DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 6:47 p.m. Response To: Helping our middle schoolers FLOURISH! Author: Giovanna Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 4:49 p.m. > How can we encourage our middle > schoolers to make the best of this time > in their life? How can their life be > the exception to the "statistics?" > I have only 2 children who are middle school/high school age, but my little experience has taught me that I need to listen to them and be looking for signals that things aren't OK. Every so often, I go into my kids' bedrooms and just plop on the bed and talk to them about how they are doing..."How's your new book? Did you get your car running properly? Are you feeling well? You seem upset about something...what?" By listening, not always "telling", I think we'll be able to help our pre-teens and teens have a smoother transition into adulthood...our final goal! Jody > Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Does a laid-back style have negative consequences later? AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 8:02 p.m. Response To: Does a laid-back style have negative consequences later? Author: dmx Date: Friday, 12 March 1999, at 9:34 a.m. I've really been wanting to respond to this post, but I keep getting distracted by the tail end of the discussion. (g) Like you, we're laid-back types. As far as the home-learning goes, my kids haven't had to cope with deadlines very often. They've been on their own time schedules from the very beginning. Has that kept them from being able to meet deadlines in college or the real world? Surprisingly, no. I have a few theories about why this is so, although I can't say for sure that my thinking is correct. For one thing, nearly all the kids' deadlines are of their choosing. Even the deadlines Ariel must meet in college (and some of them are pretty daunting) are imbedded in situations she sought for herself. They're for courses she chose, projects she volunteered for, or jobs she applied for. Furthermore, she is at that college because she wanted to be there. She met all the deadlines involved in getting INTO college (I won't say it was always fun for her or stress-free!) because this was HER goal and HER dream. However, we wouldn't necessarily have been able to predict this capability to get things done on time when she was, say, 14 or 15. At that age, she moved along like molasses in January, very lackadaisical and slow. Not many time-crunching demands were being made on her then, and it was just as well -- I don't think she would have taken kindly to them! ;-) What I've witnessed, time and again, is that when the kids really want something BAD, they'll do whatever it takes to get it. They'll meet deadlines on time, they'll work hard, they'll be responsible and dependable. But *I* can't decide for them what they should knock themselves out for. It just doesn't work that way. I know that being forced to work hard and fast all through school didn't really give me much self-discipline. I think I got desensitized early on by meeting everyone else's deadlines and never getting a chance to choose my own. My kids, on the other hand, are very successful at what they do, and I have to wonder if it's because they know the difference between an important deadline or responsibility and an unimportant one. They don't seem to have much inclination to rebel against authority (by blowing deadlines, etc.), because they've been given so much freedom. (That's my theory, anyway.) What about the work your kids do in 4-H? Don't they have to complete projects on time, get speeches ready, do things according to a schedule? I bet if you look hard enough, you'll see lots of indications that the kids DO know how to push themselves when it comes down to the wire. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: High School? I's funny you ask! AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 8:06 p.m. Response To: Re: High School? I's funny you ask! Author: Janet Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 4:30 p.m. Yes, it's true, "the experience" is something most can live without. My daughter has a very nice friend who attends ps, but as she gets older (the friend), I can see subtle chnges in her. There is an attitude developing that I just don't like. I know this isn't encouraged in her own home because I know her parents. I think one has to be a "special" way to fit in to ps school. I guess it sounds like I am picking on ps. I don't mean to do that. I know there are no absolutes, but things were different when I went to my proms, and I really did enjoy myself. Back then we did things in groups and not singles. I think that I remember adoles. psy. and learning that the normal way to introduce teen socialization was in groups and not singles. It is much healthier and much less strssful both for the child and the parents. Have a good one. Go with God. Liz G. > Liz; > I know how you feel about the socialization > issue. I get really tired of hearing > it. I have started responding by saying, > "I thought the kids were sent to > school to be educated, not to socialize. > When my oldest who is now a Junior in > High School was getting ready to start > his Freshman year I had a neighbor boy > ask me if I was going to send him to > school. When I told him no he said you > mean you are not going to let him have > the experience? I replied by saying, > "What experience.? He dropped the > subject. I even had someone say to me > that I should let him go at least his > Senior year so that he could have a > reunion. People just don't get it. They > think that because they are in high > school they no longer need or can be > educated at home. Homeschooling is something > that we started and we intend to see > it through until the end. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Writing AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 10:37 p.m. Response To: Writing Author: Giovanna Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 4:31 p.m. You have the story right. :-) Really, it wasn't so much the amount of writing required (although that played a part) as the attitude that had to accompany the writing. Let me try to explain... Ariel has always loved to write, and when she arrived at college she had a lot invested in her writing ability. She wanted every paper she turned in to be PERFECT. She agonized over every assignment, fretting and working herself to the bone. At some point that first year, she realized she would have to relax her standards a little. So that was one thing -- getting past her perfectionism. Another initial hurdle was that she had virtually no experience writing scientific papers. This wasn't a big deal -- she quickly learned what was expected of her and figured it out how to produce it. Another thing she had to learn was how to prioritize her written work. Some writing assignments were more important than others, but at first, she tended to give every assignment equal care and preparation. By the end of the first semester, she had begun to master the fine art of triage. A 2-page reading response doesn't carry the same weight as a 20-page research paper. She learned to dash off those 2-pagers the night before they were due, so she could devote more time to the longer things. Another thing she mentioned was the challenge of writing constantly, on command. Much of the time she could choose her own topic, but not always. She thought I should be requiring her younger siblings to write an occasional essay on a topic of MY choosing. (Nope -- haven't done that yet.) But -- if you're still with me, here (I know this is getting long, and it's liable to get a lot longer) -- Ariel's writing ability has been one of her strongest assets in college. Her professors invariably mention what a good writer she is, in their evaluations of her coursework. Now, in her 2nd year, she's been tutoring 1st-year students in writing! Obviously, then, whatever we did here at home worked for her, whether she had to readjust her stride that first semester or not. And what was that, exactly? Well, I'm a big believer in freewriting, keeping journals, and lots and lots of READING. I *rarely* assign any kind of writing from my kids, but I have always tried to find opportunities for them to write. I believe that writing should either be private or intended for an audience. I don't really consider myself a valid audience, either. I'm just "Mom" -- why should they write for my eyes alone? In the past, "writing for an audience" has included articles and stories for homeschooling and 4-H newsletters, self-published booklets and poetry collections, book and theater reviews, speech writing, online debates, and -- let's not forget -- LETTERS (including e-mail). I have done my very best to show the kids that writing is a process. We can't expect to turn out timeless prose in a first draft. No, we have to revise, rethink, reorganize, cut, expand, etc. In other words, we have to WORK at it. But we also have to PLAY at it. We have to find a way to open up our creative channels and let the writing flow. A writer must be both fluent and fearless when getting her thoughts on paper. Then she must be ruthless when she revises. These are the principles I've tried to drum into the kids. Responding to children's writing is a whole 'nuther topic -- one I'm not prepared to address at this late hour! -- but I hope this begins to answer the questions Giovanna asked. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Helping our middle schoolers FLOURISH! AUTHOR: Susan M DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 11:09 p.m. Response To: Helping our middle schoolers FLOURISH! Author: Giovanna Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 4:49 p.m. > How can we encourage our middle > schoolers to make the best of this time > in their life? How can their life be > the exception to the "statistics?" > One ideas would be to help them find a special interest or an area in which they can excel, something that makes them "special" and that they really care about. That gives them a reason to work hard, a reason to be their best. For example, my 6th grader started playing the trumpet last year. He loves it! Playing the trumpet and being part of a band give him something that is unique to him--at least in our family. He is even able to teach his older brother in the area of music. Knowing he is good at something makes him less frustrated when he has trouble in some school subject, or when his older brother bests him at some game. It gives him goals to reach for--moving up to a higher chair in the band, learning to play a difficult piece, and he learns what it takes to reach a goal. A great lesson in many areas of life! Susan M ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Helping our middle schoolers FLOURISH! AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 11:50 p.m. Response To: Helping our middle schoolers FLOURISH! Author: Giovanna Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 4:49 p.m. Yes, middle-schoolers are the pariahs of modern society. Adults shy away from them as if they were lepers, and I think it's a crying shame. What they really need (and probably crave) is companionship with loving, caring adults. Before I had kids, I used to say I was definitely going to send mine off to boarding school on their 13th birthday. I was just remembering how obnoxious *I* was at that age, cringing at the memory of all the fights I had with my mother, and assuming my kids would be just like I was! I hoped to spare myself the misery. I got my first surprise when the kids hit the terrible twos...and weren't that terrible after all. Hmmm. Maybe I'd have to modify my expectations somewhat. Maybe 13 wouldn't be so bad, either. I said a while back that I disagreed with the "expert" opinion that parents shouldn't try to be their children's friends. My only answer to "How can we help middle-schoolers flourish?" is to restate my position. Parents MUST be their children's friends. I think we should treat them AT LEAST as well as we treat our very best (grown-up) friends. It really hurts me when I see parents "parenting" their middle-schoolers and teens with heavy doses of fault-finding and nitpicking -- or total emotional abandonment. Most people would never treat their good friends this way. But you know how some folks dote over cuddly kittens but ignore them the minute they start turning into cats? Well, I think society kind of loses interest in children when the little-kid cuteness starts to fade. The kids feel rejected by everyone except their peers, just when they most need the reassurance that they're still lovable and precious to the adult society they hope to be a part of. Small wonder that they, in turn, begin to reject that society and act obnoxious. Sheesh! Middle schoolers need lots of hugs. They need to know how VALUABLE they are to us. They deserve our time and attention and respect. They aren't full-fledged adults quite yet, and we can't expect them to act like adults all the time. But they aren't exactly little kids anymore, either, and I think it humiliates them when we order them around and lord it over them as if they were still little-bitty guys. Ever noticed how hard they work at sounding adult? They enjoy acting like they "know it all." They make sweeping pronouncements, hoping to sound authoritative...and it's a terrible temptation sometimes to say, "What do you know about it? You're just a kid!" I think of it as 2nd-stage babytalk. It's almost as if they're trying to imitate us, odd as it seems. I see them hungering for the power that comes with being a grown-up, and whether or not they abuse that emerging power may just depend on whether we abuse our own. Do we take them seriously, or do we dismiss them because they're too old to be cute little kids and too young to be completely "one of us"? I'll tell you one thing -- if I were ever to give classroom teaching a whirl, I'd choose middle school in a heartbeat. I think these kids will give their hearts and souls to anyone who reaches out to them in true friendship. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: To co-op or not to co-op AUTHOR: Deanne V. DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 1:15 a.m. Response To: To co-op or not to co-op Author: Liz Messick Date: Wednesday, 10 March 1999, at 4:09 p.m. My children mostly prefer to work alone. I think when we did "science club" my daughter enjoyed the interaction with the other adults, but not necessarily with the other children--in fact, I know she didn't really enjoy that. :-) Even now my daughter prefers to work alone--even not with me sometimes! Sometimes this makes it hard because she will race ahead--say, in math--and not really "get it" and then it will be even harder to go over it with her later, than if we'd looked over the lesson together in the first place. The times we tried to co-op did not work out well for us. We tried both the "big group" type of co-ops and the one family type of co-op. The big group one didn't work well for us at all. My children didn't enjoy the "classroom" atmosphere and ALL the kids were distracted by so many kids and wanted to play more than do any of the activities the grownups spent so much time preparing. :-) I think it would work best to co-op with one or two other families that you could develop a relationship with and sort of "bond" with, rather than have a huge co-op group with "classes." However, when we tried even this (one other family) it didn't work out well because our expectations were different. The other kids wanted only to play in our yard or with all our toys. I think we might have been able to work it out once her children got used to my house ;-), but we didn't--for a lot of reasons. The other family was really too busy, etc. I think my daughter would benefit more from a mentor-type relationship than a co-op, though. However, doing a literature study with one other child her age (she's 13) I think would be very satisfying to her once the kids warmed up to each other. I don't know, though, if she would give it a chance--take the time to get to know the other child enough to give it a chance. Deanne V. > Do your kids enjoy having some > subjects or learning experiences with > other kids, or do they prefer to work > alone? > My daughter is very active in outside > activities - sports, music, etc. - but > she isn't interested in, say, studying > a novel with a homeschooled friend, > or doing a science unit together. She > prefers to do those things on her own. > When she gets together with a friend, > she wants the time to be completely > theirs, with no adult-imposed structure > on it. > Good or bad? How do your kids feel > about science groups, writing workshops, > and the like? > Liz ======================================== MESSAGE: That was a great post. Cerelle.... AUTHOR: Grace DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 4:12 a.m. Response To: Re: Helping our middle schoolers FLOURISH! Author: Cerelle Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 11:50 p.m. It also made me think of the times i do nit pic(GASP) (smile) I realize it is when i am afraid he wont be accepted because his acting a little childish for his "worldly" age.. He is a great kid..going to be 13..He sometimes acts childish and at times i really dont mind but at others I see that people are saying..HE should be over there hanging out with the older kids talikg about not things i want him involved in...I DONT necessarily want him over there..However I do not want people judging him..How do i get over this..Is it overprotectiveness/ (Be kind please I am baring my soul) (smile)This is really hard for me to share. Any help? any encouragement? Thanks alot.... Grace > Yes, middle-schoolers are the pariahs > of modern society. Adults shy away from > them as if they were lepers, and I think > it's a crying shame. What they really > need (and probably crave) is companionship > with loving, caring adults. > Before I had kids, I used to say > I was definitely going to send mine > off to boarding school on their 13th > birthday. I was just remembering how > obnoxious *I* was at that age, cringing > at the memory of all the fights I had > with my mother, and assuming my kids > would be just like I was! I hoped to > spare myself the misery. > I got my first surprise when the > kids hit the terrible twos...and weren't > that terrible after all. Hmmm. Maybe > I'd have to modify my expectations somewhat. > Maybe 13 wouldn't be so bad, either. > > I said a while back that I disagreed > with the "expert" opinion > that parents shouldn't try to be their > children's friends. My only answer to > "How can we help middle-schoolers > flourish?" is to restate my position. > Parents MUST be their children's friends. > I think we should treat them AT LEAST > as well as we treat our very best (grown-up) > friends. > It really hurts me when I see parents > "parenting" their middle-schoolers > and teens with heavy doses of fault-finding > and nitpicking -- or total emotional > abandonment. Most people would never > treat their good friends this way. > But you know how some folks dote > over cuddly kittens but ignore them > the minute they start turning into cats? > Well, I think society kind of loses > interest in children when the little-kid > cuteness starts to fade. The kids feel > rejected by everyone except their peers, > just when they most need the reassurance > that they're still lovable and precious > to the adult society they hope to be > a part of. Small wonder that they, in > turn, begin to reject that society and > act obnoxious. Sheesh! > Middle schoolers need lots of hugs. > They need to know how VALUABLE they > are to us. They deserve our time and > attention and respect. They aren't full-fledged > adults quite yet, and we can't expect > them to act like adults all the time. > But they aren't exactly little kids > anymore, either, and I think it humiliates > them when we order them around and lord > it over them as if they were still little-bitty > guys. Ever noticed how hard they work > at sounding adult? They enjoy acting > like they "know it all." They > make sweeping pronouncements, hoping > to sound authoritative...and it's a > terrible temptation sometimes to say, > "What do you know about it? You're > just a kid!" > I think of it as 2nd-stage babytalk. > It's almost as if they're trying to > imitate us, odd as it seems. I see them > hungering for the power that comes with > being a grown-up, and whether or not > they abuse that emerging power may just > depend on whether we abuse our own. > Do we take them seriously, or do we > dismiss them because they're too old > to be cute little kids and too young > to be completely "one of us"? > > I'll tell you one thing -- if I > were ever to give classroom teaching > a whirl, I'd choose middle school in > a heartbeat. I think these kids will > give their hearts and souls to anyone > who reaches out to them in true friendship. > > Cerelle > ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: recognizing competence AUTHOR: Lisa Torres DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 4:40 a.m. Response To: Helping our middle schoolers FLOURISH! Author: Giovanna Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 4:49 p.m. Middle schoolers are at a wonderful, awful age! They have grown to the point where they have many competences, but few people recognize the great things they can do. I have a 12 yo daughter. I'm her Girl Scout leader. Her group has decided to get involved in the environment. Rather than doing cute things like making posters encouraging people to recycle (to hang where?), they have decided to take part in an international effort to document frog populations and malformities. They have learned the calls of the 10 species of frogs in our area, and how to identify frog habitats. We will be driving a "random route" identified for us by computer at specified times during the spring and summer, stopping at 10 sites that we identify as potential frog habitat, and listening for frog calls, which we will identify by number and species. After the tadpoles metamorphose, we will do some looking for malformities. The girls have undergone special training to document all the information according to scientific protocols. These girls are the first in our area to do this work, and they are justifiably proud. At an age where many girls are embarrassed to be involved in Girl Scouts, these girls have written letters to the editor of the local paper opposing developments planned for the riverfront, been on a radio talk show,and today they have their photos on the front of the Sunday paper in a feature story. Are they embarrassed? Well, yesterday, while selling cookies at the local bank, they wrote a letter to the Rosie O'Donnell show....When I see how good they feel about doing real, necessary, useful work, I think that this is what middle schoolers need more of! They just need our help and guidance to do it. (Lest you think they are not "real little girls", when the newspaper photographer showed up unexpectedly at the interview, they reacted by expressing their horror that they weren't dressed up, then huddling to do each other's hair, put on lip gloss, and generally primp. Would you believe they could produce, from their pockets, hairbrushes, mirrors, lip gloss, and mascara?! I had to laugh. Who's their role model for this? Certainly not any of their mothers--none of us have worn make-up since our weddings!) > Children in middle school have > received a bad reputation.... and with > good reason! So much negative stuff > goes on during middle school. Blame > it on hormones, blame it on peer pressure, > blame it on parent-child relationship. > WHATEVER! I know some thing happens > during the middle school years. I was > at my very worst behavior then. I look > back and remember how unmotivated I > was during those years. I really didn't > care about anything except friends, > clothes and... well, I must admit... > BOYS! > If you've read REVIVING OPHELIA > or IN THE SHELTER OF EACH OTHER by Mary > Pipher you will certainly agree that > our middle schooler's minds are being > seduced away from home and into things > that are not, in any way, beneficial > for them. > I recenly heard someone say that > middle schoolers need just as much parental > involvement, attention, time, and supervision > as TODDLERS! > How can we encourage our middle > schoolers to make the best of this time > in their life? How can their life be > the exception to the "statistics?" > > Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: High School? I's funny you ask! AUTHOR: Janet DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 5:40 a.m. Response To: Re: High School? I's funny you ask! Author: Liz Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 8:06 p.m. > Yes, it's true, "the experience" > is something most can live without. > I totally agree with you. I know my kids (16 and 14) have a attitude problem at times. But, I think a lot of that is the hormone thing going on with them. Now if they were in ps I think that it would be a stronger attitude. An attitude that would be at time unbearable. I know there are times that they will comment that the attitude of another teenager is bad. I think by them not being in ps they can step back and see exactly how some of them act.If they were in ps they would think it was normal to act this way. Another thing that we enjoy because of not being in ps is the freedom the kids have. They have the time to do the things in life they enjoy. My daughter loves horses and gets to spend her afternoon with the 2 horses we have. My son is able to help my husband in the afternoon with the family business and he is a total outdoor person. He loves to hunt and fish. There are so many advantages to be homeschooled through the hs years and we love it. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Helping our middle schoolers FLOURISH! AUTHOR: Kysa DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 6:12 a.m. Response To: Re: Helping our middle schoolers FLOURISH! Author: Cerelle Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 11:50 p.m. > I'll tell you one thing -- if I > were ever to give classroom teaching > a whirl, I'd choose middle school in > a heartbeat. I think these kids will > give their hearts and souls to anyone > who reaches out to them in true friendship. > I have intentionally taught the junior high Sunday school class at my church for many years now. It is definitely my favorite age group. They are old enough and mature enough to start asking really important questions. I love to get them discussing. I think the really important thing is to treat them as though you expect adult behavior--I get it every time! They like it that I admit not knowing everything and have to look things up. After all that is what I expect of them. I have never really gotten to know a 12-13 year old I didn't really like! Kysa ======================================== MESSAGE: This sounds like a great activity! More Info Please! AUTHOR: Gina DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 6:52 a.m. Response To: Re: recognizing competence Author: Lisa Torres Date: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 4:40 a.m. Wow! This frog project sounds great. The kids are doing something real that matters! My kids have always had special radar that detects fake, busy type, activities. Is this program on the web or do you have an address for an information packet??? My kids may not be interested in frogs but this will certainly give them some ideas on what they 'could' be doing! --Gina ======================================== MESSAGE: 13yob wants to learn about investing AUTHOR: Shari DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 6:58 a.m. Hi! My 13yr old son has expressed an interest in learning about the stock market/investments. Does anyone have any ideas/experience on how I should go about helping him research this? Thanks so much, Shari ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: This sounds like a great activity! More Info Please! AUTHOR: Lisa Torres DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 7:01 a.m. Response To: This sounds like a great activity! More Info Please! Author: Gina Date: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 6:52 a.m. Here's the website where I found most of the info. You'll want to link to the NAAMP site to find out about the frog call surveys. You'll also find info about salamander projects there, by the way. National Wildlife Federation also has some good stuff, including a club called Earth Savers. I think the link is something like www.nwf.org. Have fun! > Wow! This frog project sounds great. > The kids are doing something real that > matters! My kids have always had special > radar that detects fake, busy type, > activities. Is this program on the web > or do you have an address for an information > packet??? My kids may not be interested > in frogs but this will certainly give > them some ideas on what they 'could' > be doing! > --Gina ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Link didn't post...I'll try again... AUTHOR: Lisa Torres DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 7:04 a.m. Response To: Re: This sounds like a great activity! More Info Please! Author: Lisa Torres Date: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 7:01 a.m. Try www.frogweb.gov/adopt.html > Here's the website where I found > most of the info. You'll want to link > to the NAAMP site to find out about > the frog call surveys. You'll also find > info about salamander projects there, > by the way. National Wildlife Federation > also has some good stuff, including > a club called Earth Savers. I think > the link is something like www.nwf.org. > Have fun! ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: High School? I's funny you ask! AUTHOR: Rita DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 7:51 a.m. Response To: Re: High School? I's funny you ask! Author: Liz Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 8:06 p.m. > Yes, it's true, "the experience" > is something most can live without. > My daughter has a very nice friend who > attends ps, but as she gets older (the > friend), I can see subtle chnges in > her. There is an attitude developing > that I just don't like. I know this > isn't encouraged in her own home because > I know her parents. I think one has > to be a "special" way to fit > in to ps school. I guess it sounds like > I am picking on ps. I don't mean to > do that. I know there are no absolutes, > but things were different when I went > to my proms, and I really did enjoy > myself. Back then we did things in groups > and not singles. I think that I remember > adoles. psy. and learning that the normal > way to introduce teen socialization > was in groups and not singles. It is > much healthier and much less strssful > both for the child and the parents. > Have a good one. Go with God. Liz G. > We started homeschooling three years ago (6th grade) because classroom sizes were over 3l students per home room. We told our daughter she could return to public school when she wanted. This year, 9th grade arrived and Lisa (14) said she wanted to return to public school because she wanted to be around more kids and, academically, she wanted to be sure she was prepared for college. Last summer I read the book, Reviving Ophelia (saving the selves of adolescent girls) by Mary Pipher, PhD. I had always done lip service to the thought "things had changed since I was a teen." After reading Reviving Ophelia, it was not o.k. for a return to public school. However, we felt our daughther should still make the decision. We talked about her concern academically. For Junior and Senior years, our daughter will be able to attend a community college. In Minnesota, the two years will be free of charge. We do not have to enroll through a public school. We talked about her desire to be around more teens. Thanks to a Mpls Y.E.A.H. (Youth Educated At Home) homeschooling teen group, we obtained ideas for her to start a homeschooling teen group. We're fortunate to have a small group of teen homeschooling parents that have supported her efforts. This month, we sponsored a family ski day (the ski area stopped counting at 35), a movie to see the Prince of Egypt and a Sound of Music play at the community college. Usually, our goal is one homeschooling teen event a month. We're continuing to include 4-H in our curriculum. The result? Even though we went to the public school, selected subjects for 9th grade, our daughter decided to homeschool! If a teen and family are thinking of homeschooling through the high school years, I'd suggest reading Reviving Ophelia to give reasons for not returning to public school. For reasons to continue homeschooling through high school, A Sense of Self by Susannah Sheffer was of immense benefit! Rita ======================================== MESSAGE: Thanks for reminding me... AUTHOR: Lee DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 8:36 a.m. Response To: 13yob wants to learn about investing Author: Shari Date: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 6:58 a.m. There was a website somewhere that you can learn all about this from. I wrote it down last fall but now I cannot seem to find it. I will keep checking my notes and post it if/when I find it. Maybe somebody else has it too. > Hi! My 13yr old son has expressed > an interest in learning about the stock > market/investments. Does anyone have > any ideas/experience on how I should > go about helping him research this? > > Thanks so much, Shari ======================================== MESSAGE: A couple ideas... AUTHOR: Jody C. DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 9:33 a.m. Response To: Thanks for reminding me... Author: Lee Date: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 8:36 a.m. > www.timberdoodle.com Timberdoodle has a math for everyday living that includes Mathematics for Investment. Maybe this would be a start. Another idea...contacting Larry Burkett...Your Money in Changing Times. Hope this helps. Jody ======================================== MESSAGE: Rita, what great plans for your daughter! AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 10:19 a.m. Response To: Re: High School? I's funny you ask! Author: Rita Date: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 7:51 a.m. Wow, what great plans. My daughter is not ready for middle or high school yet, but it is close enough so that we have pondered the situation. I agree, a support group (large or small) of the right people makes all the difference in the world. My own daughter is very social and would miss the company of other young people. She keeps herself busy and doesn't need a constant diet of youth, but she really does look forward to seeing friends. There are many young people in our support group around whom she enjoys being. We also, have talented mothers and fathers in the group, so plays, field trips, clubs (American Girl is the latest), and band is part of the offerings from the group. Actually, she is as active (more) than she would be if attending ps. I love your high school plans, though, and printed them out. I see no reason why a bright child shouldn't take the courses on a college level, if that is possible. Go with God. Liz G. > > We told our daughter she could > return to public school when she wanted. > This year, 9th grade arrived and Lisa > (14) said she wanted to return to public > school because she wanted to be around > more kids and, academically, she wanted > to be sure she was prepared for college. > Last summer I read the book, Reviving > Ophelia (saving the selves of adolescent > girls) by Mary Pipher, PhD. I had always > done lip service to the thought "things > had changed since I was a teen." > > After reading Reviving Ophelia, > it was not o.k. for a return to public > school. However, we felt our daughther > should still make the decision. > We talked about her concern academically. > For Junior and Senior years, our daughter > will be able to attend a community college. > In Minnesota, the two years will be > free of charge. We do not have to enroll > through a public school. > We talked about her desire to be > around more teens. Thanks to a Mpls > Y.E.A.H. (Youth Educated At Home) homeschooling > teen group, we obtained ideas for her > to start a homeschooling teen group. > We're fortunate to have a small group > of teen homeschooling parents that have > supported her efforts. This month, we > sponsored a family ski day (the ski > area stopped counting at 35), a movie > to see the Prince of Egypt and a Sound > of Music play at the community college. > Usually, our goal is one homeschooling > teen event a month. We're continuing > to include 4-H in our curriculum. > The result? Even though we went > to the public school, selected subjects > for 9th grade, our daughter decided > to homeschool! > If a teen and family are thinking > of homeschooling through the high school > years, I'd suggest reading Reviving > Ophelia to give reasons for not returning > to public school. For reasons to continue > homeschooling through high school, A > Sense of Self by Susannah Sheffer was > of immense benefit! > Rita > ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: I'm guessing Minnesota AUTHOR: Rita DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 1:45 p.m. Response To: I'm guessing Minnesota Author: Kysa Date: Monday, 1 March 1999, at 5:40 a.m. > You are indeed lucky, but few of > us get that opportunity. I just wrote > a recommendation for a young lady who > comes to my house for science lab activities > to go to a Minnesota college for the > last two years of high school. The admission > director is giving the family a hard > time because he has had some students > (from public school) that did poorly. > It is a great idea, and most home schooled > students should do very well. I live > in South Dakota (just 20 miles away) > and we don't even have a single community > college. My son took a class at the > nearest university at age 16, but it > was like pulling hens teeth to get him > in. Once enrolled in the class (at our > expense) he could not even get a library > card for the university library because > he was under 18! Luckily I work there > and have libary privileges. > My daughter has taken correspondence > courses from a school in another state > because that is cheaper than attended > the one next door at in-state tution. You're right! It's Minnesota! Included in the MACHE (Minnesota Association of Christian Home Educators) membership packet, "The Postsecondary Enrollment Options allows high school juniors and seniors to take courses, full-or part-time, at a liberal arts, community or technical collelge, a universitiy, non-profit degree granting trade school, or an accredited opportunities industrialization center in Minnesota for high school credit. The program provides students with a greater variety of class offerings and the opportunity to pursue more challenging coursework. The tuition, fees, and required textbooks are at no cost to students." In the MHA (Minnesota Homeschoolers' Alliance) Fall 1997 newsletter, "Prior to this legislative change, homeschool students had to enroll in public high school in order to access Minnesota's Postsecondary Enrollment Options program." The law has been changed to allow homeschool students to participate in the Postsecondary Program in the fall of l997 without having to enroll in a public high school. One homeschooling student, enrolled in our local homeschool-friendly high school, participated at a local community college, received her high school diploma and an Associate of Arts Degree upon completion of her senior high. All community college credits transferred to St. Olaf, a private Minnesota college. St. Olaf recommended she start as a college freshman. Another graduate of this community college (not a homeschool student) also received her Associate of Arts Degree, all credits transferred and she started as a junior at the University of Minnesota. Tips from homeschooling families taking advantage of this program have been: Keep a transcipt.... requirements are copies of 9th and l0th grade report cards from homeschool parents. Plan ahead...make an appointment at the college and learn their requirements. In two years we plan to take advantage of this Postsecondary Program. I don't know if our daughter will take certain subjects (Chemistry, Trig, Calculus) or the Associate of Arts Degree. I just received information from the community college our daughter would attend and was informed the internet class or the ITV class can be used to fulfill the AA requirements. Hope the Program is still available then!! Rita > ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: 13yob wants to learn about investing AUTHOR: Kathy in CT DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 1:53 p.m. Response To: 13yob wants to learn about investing Author: Shari Date: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 6:58 a.m. Hi Shari, My son had fun playing the Stock Market Game. There a 2 versions- you can either mail in your "investments" or play online. We played the one that you mailed in. It is run by the Center for Economic Education and came with a helpful resource list. You can read more about it at: http://www.smg2000.org/ Good Luck! Kathy ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Writing AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 2:28 p.m. Response To: Re: Writing Author: Cerelle Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 10:37 p.m. > Another thing she mentioned was > the challenge of writing constantly, > on command. Much of the time she could > choose her own topic, but not always. > She thought I should be requiring her > younger siblings to write an occasional > essay on a topic of MY choosing. (Nope > -- haven't done that yet.) Is she saying she should have been asked to write on command? Did you ever "teach" her how to do a research paper? How to do a bibliography? How to annotate? Another question: How do you get children from hating to write to be willing to try it? I often wondered what it is we do to make kids dislike writing so much. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: That's just the thing -- how do we handle our own embarrassment? AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 2:41 p.m. Response To: That was a great post. Cerelle.... Author: Grace Date: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 4:12 a.m. Grace, I think you analyzed the problem beautifully. Aren't we always tempted to criticize our children when we're afraid others may be thinking critical thoughts about them...and therefore about us? One of our jobs, as parents, is to teach our kids situation-appropriate behavior. It's one facet of "socialization." At a musical performance, for instance, even very small children need to understand that they should sit quietly so they don't spoil the experience for other people in the audience. And most of us try to teach our children not to run and shout in the library. These are just a couple of examples. So if one of my children behaves inappropriately in a given setting, I can expect to be criticized by MY peers. They'll wonder why I haven't taught this kid the proper way to conduct himself in this situation. If I'm aware of this, I'll feel bad about myself and the job I'm doing, and what happens next is a test of MY character. Do I blame the kid for making me look bad? Do I take my public embarrassment out on him? Or do I lay the responsibility for teaching correct behavior at my own door, and work harder to "socialize" my child? Boy, I don't know about you, but I think this is one of the toughest character tests we parents face on a regular basis! It's hard not to make a big display of correcting the kid on the spot (so everyone can see we're TRYING to be a good parent, for heaven's sake!). But in doing so, we betray him. What if we correct him in private? I think this is always the better choice, but again, much depends on how we go about it. Do we approach him in a friendly manner, as one who is really ON HIS SIDE? Or do we blame him for causing us shame, for exposing our inadequate job of parenting? Whose side are we REALLY on? And then there are all those smaller, subtler things we might want to take our children to task for, because we see those little imperfections as a risk to our own self esteem. Maybe their hair looks messy. Their manners could be a little better. Their grammar sets our teeth on edge. Their posture's a wreck. Or they act "childish" at all the wrong times. Oh, if only they could be perfect, so we could appear perfect in our own eyes and in the eyes of the world! Believe me, I know this drill inside and out. But the only way I know how to be the kind of parent *I* would want for my own is to have enough adult strength to be able to take my child's side. By that, I don't mean approving of everything he does, even if it inconveniences or upsets other people. I DO mean that I'd want to try to help him grow into a strong and happy adult. As far as childish behavior goes, I find I'm much more tolerant with my 3rd child than I was with my 1st. Why is this such a hard lesson to learn? The truth is, childhood doesn't really last very long, while adulthood takes the rest of our lives. I don't wish to unnecessarily prolong my kids' childhood -- far from it -- but I can't find a good reason to hurry it to a premature conclusion, either. I wasn't nearly this relaxed the first time around, though. I was all too pleased whenever my oldest daughter acted like a sober adult, and all too disappointed when she demonstrated that she was still a child. Did I think it was a race to the finish? :( I don't know, Grace. You probably don't engage in any more fault-finding than the rest of us do. I think being aware of is half the battle. Don't think that I don't still catch myself at it from time to time! I just try to remind myself that much more is at stake than my own feelings. When we're sure of our own self-respect, it's much easier to be kind to our kids. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Amen to that! I love middle schoolers. AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 3:19 p.m. Response To: Re: Helping our middle schoolers FLOURISH! Author: Cerelle Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 11:50 p.m. Oh.........that was so well said. I used to call them "my angels" until they left for music, then they were "my chicadees." I loved that age. What makes it difficult in a school setting is, they are not all middle school age. SOme are much older and tougher. But, yes, I agree. They need a lot of encouragement and hugs and anything else positive. It must be terrible to feel grown up, but not be able to do anything grown up. I suppose we all went through it, but somehow it now seems worse. I guess there are more stumbling blocks then there were way back when I was coming up. I'll tell you one thing about teaching middleschoolers, you need a good sense of humor, and if you have it, they keep you smiling. Liz G. ======================================== MESSAGE: And...we should practice what we preach, too. AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 3:26 p.m. Response To: That's just the thing -- how do we handle our own embarrassment? Author: Cerelle Date: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 2:41 p.m. Although E'lise is not yet middle school age, she is nearing that point quickly. She is tall and slender, not thin, and she is going to mature early...actually, already beginning to become a young woman leaving girlhood behind. My only consolation is that she is still a very little girl in her desires and interests. She does, however, like clothes. I will not allow her to wear short skirts (not too short, that is). I recently put the cutest skirt (for myself) on layaway. I went to pick it up this week. It was quite short, and I had a large guilt feeling. I need to practice what I preach. After all, I am fortunate that she still looks to me for a role model. I need to fill that role to the best of my ability, so I put my money where my mouth was and refunded the skirt. Liz G. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: 13yob wants to learn about investing AUTHOR: Sarah DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 3:38 p.m. Response To: 13yob wants to learn about investing Author: Shari Date: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 6:58 a.m. Hang on, there's more! You can get him some books on the subject, either bought or from libraries, like: Learn to Earn : A Beginner's Guide to the Basics of Investing and Business by Peter Lynch and John Rothchild And then you can go to some of these internet sites: http://www.vexchange.com/ Stockmarket simulation, where you can pretend to ply play with pretend money. http://www.buckinvestor.com/ Click on their Beginner's Investment Kit http://www.investorama.com/youth_investing.html Investing resources for young people Have fun! Sarah PS. I also have a 13 year old but he is still heavily into computers... ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Writing AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 3:51 p.m. Response To: Re: Writing Author: Giovanna Date: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 2:28 p.m. > Is she saying she should have been > asked to write on command? Yeah, I reckon so! :-D But you know, stubborn person that I am, I don't really have any regrets about not doing it. The proof's in the pudding. She loves to write and can always think of something to write about...and that's enough for me. Remember -- she made these remarks after her 1st semester of college, which is always something of a struggle for everyone, alternatively educated or not. And indeed, she felt a lot better after she compared notes with some other students (traditionally schooled) who said THEY weren't at all prepared for the wide variety of writing assignments they were having to do, either. So there! ;-) > Did you ever "teach" > her how to do a research paper? How > to do a bibliography? How to annotate? Nope. Sure didn't. I just don't buy into the philosophy that we have to teach our kids how to do everything NOW because they might need to know how LATER. Frankly, I don't get it. If they can learn how to write a bibliography at age 12 or 15, they learn it at 18 or 21 just as well, can't they? This is EASY stuff, after all. You can look in just about any writer's reference and find the format. Around here, we learn stuff when we need or want to. Ariel never needed to write a research paper, here at home. Oh, wait, I take that back. She wrote a pretty long one on the Dionysius cult when she was 16, but it wasn't footnoted or anything. That one was done mostly for kicks (we were studying rhetoric at the time), and the point was to come up with a topic, do the research, organize the information and write about it -- not produce a full-fledged research paper with documentation. She did have to learn annotation when she wrote her critical essay for her college applications. I threw her a copy of Kate Turabian's handbook and said, "Here you go." > Another question: > How do you get children from hating > to write to be willing to try it? I > often wondered what it is we do to make > kids dislike writing so much. Well, I think most little kids don't enjoy the physical demands of handwriting very much. It's hard to get all those motor skills lined up and working automatically. Composing really isn't that different from talking, though, and kids love to talk. I never minded taking dictation and calling that "writing." And that was fun! Children love to make up stories, after all, and if someone else is willing to do the hard work of transcribing their words, it's a great pleasure to see it all in print. So mine grew up believing that "writing" was the same thing as "storytelling." They told the stories; Mama wrote them down. Then they illustrated THEIR words with pretty pictures...and voila! A book! "Written and illustrated by the author." Of course, I wasn't ALWAYS available to take dictation, so sooner or later, they ended up needing to write down their stories themselves before all their good ideas were forgotten. This was very hard work, of course, but it was work they were happy to do because it was THEIR idea. I never said, "Go write a story now." I think we make kids hate writing when we insist on it. Then we make things even worse by criticizing the results. Here's an example: I enjoy cooking when I'm in the mood for it and it's something I like to eat. But of course we wives and moms don't always have that luxury -- a good amount of the time, we have to cook when we DON'T feel like it, and oftentimes we make food that we don't even like very much, just to please the rest of the family. And how galling it is when we cook a big meal (even though we would have much preferred to do something else for those 2 hours) and someone has the audacity to say, "Gee, this rice is a little undercooked," or, "Why did you put green peppers in here?" By the time I turned 40, I hated cooking. It had been ruined for me by too many years of cooking to please other people, rather than myself. Luckily, I had a daughter who loved to cook, and I could gracefully retire from the job most nights. Anyway, this is what we do to our children's enjoyment of writing. We don't allow them the pleasure of doing it for themselves. We make them do it for US, and then we pick holes in it. I don't blame most kids for hating to write -- what do THEY get out of it? Hard work and criticism. It doesn't have to be that way, as long as we have the courage to let them do it on their own terms -- at least until they've learned to enjoy it for its own sake. Handwriting is an auxilliary skill and does need to be practiced so it can come easily. Ten minutes a day should be enough for any young child, in my opinion...especially in this day and age when a gorgeous, flowing hand is no longer the standard and nearly every household has a keyboard or two. Typing is another skill that's easily learned with short doses of daily practice. Writing (with a capital W) is supported by these other skills but it's not the same thing at all. I think I've rambled enough for one sitting! Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: It was sort-of like that with me. AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 5:07 p.m. Response To: Re: add me to your list of stories Author: Grace Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 2:51 p.m. Iwanted to be a nurse. I didn't persue it and ended up working for the airlines. Years later, I discovered my love was middle school children. I ended up teaching them until dear E'lise came along. I home school her, now. But....my very bright son did not want to go to college. He did go into the Navy (nuclear power program) and got a wonderful education in chemistry etc. He is now out of the Navy and earning a salary with which I could be very happy. He does, however, realize the importance of a collge education; he feels that his advancement is limited without it and is working very hard to achieve that collge education. He plans to follow through and to earn his MBA. Liz G. > It's VERY important that we allow > our children the freedom to pursue their > interests, to grow as people, to find > their uniqueness, to indulge in their > interests.... ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Writing AUTHOR: Grace DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 5:23 p.m. Response To: Re: Writing Author: Cerelle Date: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 3:51 p.m. That is sooooo wonderful to hear and I agree with so much of it(Oh WOW and all this time i thought I was the only one) Thank You so much for the encouragement!!!! Writing is one subject I really have not done with my kids..Because I feel very inadequate. They are voracious readers... Well, they have always loved writing comics,,they have invented quite a few different super heros(some even have Christian content0 i think they are great!! Last year we were studing american History and my 12 yos says one day I am going to write a research paper on so and so..Go for it I said ..he did a pretty decent job. This year he has started several books...one he stopped ..But one he is still working on!He also has written a few book reviews for youth group. I am in awe..Because although we do have the tools here -to get the info on how to do it-I didnt teach him!!You all have just been boosting me and encouraging me so much ! THANK YOU!!!!!!! Grace > Yeah, I reckon so! :-D > But you know, stubborn person that > I am, I don't really have any regrets > about not doing it. The proof's in the > pudding. She loves to write and can > always think of something to write about...and > that's enough for me. ======================================== MESSAGE: Funny story AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 7:03 p.m. Response To: And...we should practice what we preach, too. Author: Liz Date: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 3:26 p.m. I'll never forget the time I was sent home from school (in high school) because my skirt hemline was higher than the 5"-above-the-knee maximum. The girls' dean had to call my mom to come pick me up, and of course I was worried she'd be mad at me for getting in trouble. Mama roared up in her convertible Mustang, with a big grin on her face. When she got the phone call, she'd been in the act of taking up all her dresses to match the new, more fashionable, shorter hemlines. "I can't fuss at you," she said. "I'm guilty, too." I've always been grateful to her for that. She could have played the hypocrite and scolded me for breaking the school's rules. :-) Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Motivation (was: Negative Consequences ) AUTHOR: Sarah DATE: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 1:08 a.m. dmx wrote in Does a laid-back style have negative consequences later? > I have a recurring worry that I > thought some of you might be able to > address. Our lifestyle & homeschool > work is very relaxed. As a matter of fact my worries are gaining the proportions of a nightmare...! Our son is also 13. We have been de-schooling for three years now, grade 5 was his last year in public school. We very consciously let him be ever since, waiting patiently for any signs of academic interest. But nothing is forthcoming... He spends most of his days in front of the computer, part of it playing games, but also interacting with a lot of people on mIRC and ICQ, socializing. I often watch over his shoulders and I check the cache, it is mostly computer issues and game talk. He also became part of the support crew of a local TV show, he has his name up in the credits. The only other spark of interest is a mild body consciousness that prompted him to enroll for gym lessons. The problem is that we are an intellectual family and the pressure is VERY big on me from family and friens who scorn our seemingly laissez-faire attitude towards his education. But when is relaxed too relaxed? He is so "allergic" to anything academic right now, that he shuns everything that could have the slightest educational value - and that includes books... Are we really too relaxed about him? When can we expect a turn-around? If not, then how could we motivate him to educate himself? Is there somebody out there who had similar experiences? Sarah ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Funny story AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 4:21 a.m. Response To: Funny story Author: Cerelle Date: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 7:03 p.m. Yes, a funny story. She sounds like a great mom, too! Liz G. > I'll never forget the time I was > sent home from school (in high school) > because my skirt hemline was higher > than the 5"-above-the-knee maximum. > The girls' dean had to call my mom to > come pick me up, and of course I was > worried she'd be mad at me for getting > in trouble. > Mama roared up in her convertible > Mustang, with a big grin on her face. > When she got the phone call, she'd been > in the act of taking up all her dresses > to match the new, more fashionable, > shorter hemlines. "I can't fuss > at you," she said. "I'm guilty, > too." > I've always been grateful to her > for that. She could have played the > hypocrite and scolded me for breaking > the school's rules. :-) > Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: That's just the thing -- how do we handle our own embarrassment? AUTHOR: Grace DATE: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 4:52 a.m. Response To: That's just the thing -- how do we handle our own embarrassment? Author: Cerelle Date: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 2:41 p.m. Thanks Cerelle,It is nice to know others have felt that way and have learned to deal with it -I am learning.. Yes, i need to keep reminding myself that there is much more at stake than my feelings...hmmmmmmm I think i will let my dh read these posts..Oh I am chuckling a bit at the thought of our poor first born we learn so much from our experiences with them.i am glad he is such an easygoing kid.. Thanks again!!! Grace ======================================== MESSAGE: Verbal Abuse AUTHOR: Rita DATE: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 10:28 a.m. As a family, we've volunteered to help draft a Constitution and By-Laws for our three-year old 4-H Club. We're fortunate to have the experience of obtaining the Constitution, By-Laws and Amendments of several County 4-H Clubs that have roots of several generations. On 10/30/86, an Amendment was made to the By-Laws of one club "Swearing and Put-Downs are not acceptable 4-H behavaior. Any member involved in this type of behavior will receive one warning only. Further incidents will result in the member being dropped from club membership." Another amendment (l0/l3/86) states, "Members involved in physical fighting will automatically be excluded from membership of this club." My questions to you, my electronic support group :o) are: 1) As homeschooling parents of middle school youth, how do you handle verbal abuse when your child is involved in an activity with other youth? 2) Have you seen a course where we can help girls not to put down other girls? Books I've read and a few seminars I've attended seen to have adult answers that just don't work for a youth to express when they're in a difficult situation. 3) What do you think of the Amendment I posted? I like to pick my battles carefully. Is this statement another "paper tiger" or have you been in situations where adults have become involvled to prevent verbal abuse? We have a group of girls (only one boy) ages 8 through 14 that have many, many assets. However, we do have verbal abuse (put-downs, sarcasm and wolf pack behavior (leaving kids out). As a family, we think addressing unacceptable verbal behavior in the Constitution is a start of correcting behavior. Rita ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Motivation AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 11:51 a.m. Response To: Motivation (was: Negative Consequences ) Author: Sarah Date: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 1:08 a.m. > We have been de-schooling > for three years now, grade 5 was his > last year in public school. We very > consciously let him be ever since, waiting > patiently for any signs of academic > interest. But nothing is forthcoming... > So if he was in public school he would be in eighth grade now, right? > The problem is that we are an intellectual > family and the pressure is VERY big > on me from family and friens who scorn > our seemingly laissez-faire attitude > towards his education. But when is relaxed > too relaxed? He is so "allergic" > to anything academic right now, that > he shuns everything that could have > the slightest educational value - and > that includes books... What do YOU think? Honestly. What are your thoughts on this? Motivation has to do with "internal" factors within the person. We shouldn't say that your child is not motivated by anything because something obviously has motivated him to do some things. I have a few questions for you though? Besides chatting on the computer, what else is he doing? Does he contribute to the household in any way? Is he reponsible for chores? It is very unwise not to teach children to be responsible for their home. This includes their laundry, some cooking perhaps, bathroom cleaning, lawn care. If they were living somewhere else they would have to do this AND they would probably have to pay RENT! It is very hard to give you an accurate analysis on what is really going on here because we don't live with you. :-) My first step with this young man would be to include him in family chores. Start out small, and then increase the responsibility. My second step would be to get him involved in something he is truly interested in. You mentioned something about TV. Look into possible volunteer programs available through the public tv station in your area. You may already be doing this. How much time is he really spending on the computer? Hours? I don't see a problem with chatting, computer time but I do see a problem if this is the center of his life. This type of indulgence is leading him nowhere. I am willing to bet that as long as he continues this pattern he will not be attracted to books or any sort of interest that requires research or a book. Breaking him out of a computer addiction may require way more than just "weaning". Probably more like a clean break. I wonder what he would do with his time if he didn't have the computer?? I am also recommending that you institute a family read aloud time, if you have not already done so. He may not want to pick up a book but if you and him or dad and him or all of you read a classic together as a family, it could open doors for interests. Pick something you know everyone will be interested in and get this going ASAP! Before you can start to get into academics of any sort there are a few "emergency issues" that you need to address. The chores are important. Children need to be responsible and part of the team in the family. It takes more than one person to make a home run efficiently and he needs to be involved in that. Another "emergency issue" is the relationship you have with him. You didn't mention anything regarding this but if the relationship is not well then you will have a hard time implementing anything I've recommended here. You should, therefore, make the relationship the number one priority. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Motivation (more) AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 11:55 a.m. Response To: Re: Motivation Author: Giovanna Date: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 11:51 a.m. Forgot to add that you may want to read a permanent archived thread that went on a couple of months ago. It's called "UNSCHOOLING HELP!" and if you look in the yellow bar you will find the link for it there. This thread has to do with a very, very similar situation. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Exactly! AUTHOR: dmx DATE: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 11:59 a.m. Response To: Exactly! Author: Cerelle Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 10:41 a.m. " . . . But the advice he gave us years ago, as far as how to help the kids do well in life, was not to worry ahead of time too terribly much about college, but to get them started doing what they liked to do. " This sure hits the spot. I do have a tendency to borrow problems from tomorrow. I'm afraid I'm terribly worried that 'no college' means 'no success' and, though I try hard to be open-minded, I'm afraid this worry can have awful consequences. So, I think I'm going to carve this advice into my brain and try and let the future take are of itself! As an aside, I wanted to comment on what your husband said about failing to find the right college for him. I also regret not putting time and effort into finding a college that I could thrive in. I LOVED the classes I took, but the environment - an urban commuter school - just about smothered my enjoyment of college. I urge everyone whose child is heading to college to let their kids see LOTS of different possibilities. I just went where my sisters went and was miserable, personally not educationally, for two years before transferring to another college. Worst of all, I didn't even understand why I felt so down those first two years until I was long out of college. Thanks, Cerelle, for your comments! ======================================== MESSAGE: Thanks everyone and . . . AUTHOR: dmx DATE: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 12:23 p.m. Response To: Re: Does a laid-back style have negative consequences later? Author: Cerelle Date: Saturday, 13 March 1999, at 8:02 p.m. We went through some pretty hectic days right after I posted this. This is my first time back to the board since then. I'm really enjoying the responses. Well, yes, there are deadlines that he makes. He's doing a round robin story deadline & he often writes his part the day before it needs mailed off. He does many chores the same way. "Get the branches cleared from the yard by Friday." And Friday it is. And most other deadlines are met one way or another. HOWEVER, your post above where you quote the advice given by a friend which suggests concentrating on nurturing the child's passions and interests really hit home. I am much too worried about the future (and always have been). I think it has a negative impact on my son. I'm going to humiliate myself by telling you what I said to him in a conversation a year or so ago. He was pondering college and saying how he wondered if he'd have to go, etc. Obviously, he'd been feeling some pressure. Rather than see that for what it was - a query really rooted in nerves - I told him that he would most likely want to go to college when it came time. Now, the truth is that what he needed to hear was, "No, you don't have to go. You may want to go, so we'll do all we can so that you're prepared IF you want to go." Talk about missed opportunities to make a big difference in the way he approaches life! I'm mortified when I think of that moment. So, that's why your friend's advice struck such a chord in me. I DON'T want to do that again. I think this question I posted is a sign that I'm back on the old worry-trail again. Time to get off & enjoy (????) those wacky Godzilla tales he's writing! Thanks so much everyone for your thoughts! ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: That's just the thing -- how do we handle our own embarrassment? AUTHOR: dmx DATE: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 12:51 p.m. Response To: Re: That's just the thing -- how do we handle our own embarrassment? Author: Grace Date: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 4:52 a.m. I think you just bared many souls with your question. My 13 yo son LOVES Godzilla. I mean loves. He draws him, he writes stories, he makes comic books, he reads G-Fan magazine, he scours stores and catalogs for anything related to him. He actually researches this monster & keeps tracks of dates movies were released, etc. He even wants to learn Japanese so he can go there & see what there is in Japan concerning Godzilla. Now, let's see: he's reading, writing, drawing,even researching and showing an interest (though not a commitment) in learning Japanese. Do I jump up and down in delight? NO!!!! It's so embarrassing. Godzilla???!!!!! In these environmentally conscious days where senstive boys are very acceptable; where 'educational toys' are the hip products. ESPECIALLY amongst homeschoolers. So, I cringe, I whisper, I slink through social situations where my son's interests come up. And, I'm just beginning to hold my head high (thanks to my VERY supportive extended family who see the value & are amused). Well, if I'm honest, I don't hold my head high - I'm beginning to poke my head above my collar! :) ======================================== MESSAGE: David Colfax . . . AUTHOR: dmx DATE: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 12:58 p.m. Response To: Re: recognizing competence Author: Lisa Torres Date: Sunday, 14 March 1999, at 4:40 a.m. I recently listened to an audio tape of a speech the famed homeschooling father, David Colfax, gave. He said he thinks the single best thing you can do for your high schooler is let them do real things. If they want a baseball field, help them find a way to build it. A skate park, make it. A gym? Organize, fund-raise, build. That definitely supports your point. Great job! ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Motivation (was: Negative Consequences ) AUTHOR: dmx DATE: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 1:11 p.m. Response To: Motivation (was: Negative Consequences ) Author: Sarah Date: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 1:08 a.m. You might want to post this on the main board, with an alert to Cafi Cohen. I can remember her response to a similar question & I was very impressed with her savvy. In short, I remember her suggesting volunteer work as a must (of their choice); limiting time to computer & tv (not necessarily telling them what to do with their time). I think she said she'd never seen a kid just sit and stare at the walls for too long. But I'm sure her comments would be more meaningful. Also requiring some specific amount of time for him to do some project of his own choosing might be an option. I know for my son, I've often had to look at his interests & say, 'you need to try this for a time and see if you like.' If he doesn't after a fair try, we drop a subject. If he likes it, we continue to the end of a project. 2 And I'm also tempted to suggest that 'the nut doesn't fall far from the tree' & that if he is surrounded by people who love learning, it's probably lurking there in him too. But, I'm not sure I'd be comforted by that after the time you've spent 'waiting' for something to develop. ======================================== MESSAGE: "the nut doesn't fall far from the tree" AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 1:21 p.m. Response To: Re: Motivation (was: Negative Consequences ) Author: dmx Date: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 1:11 p.m. > And I'm also tempted to suggest > that 'the nut doesn't fall far from > the tree' & that if he is surrounded > by people who love learning, it's probably > lurking there in him too. But, I'm not > sure I'd be comforted by that after > the time you've spent 'waiting' for > something to develop. You know what, though? This IS excellent advice. And it is worth repeating. When mom and dad are reading and busy in their own learning pursuits and hobbies and there is excitement in the air about pending projects and plans...well, it can get pretty contagious!!!! Deschooling/unschooling is very much about creating an atmosphere in the home that is conducive to learning. Even though there aren't texbooks and workbooks, you will often find books of all sorts, craft projects, woodworking projects, a microscope...all kinds of things. Learning is very much going on but in an unconventional way. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: OH YES!!! I know exactly... AUTHOR: Grace DATE: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 1:41 p.m. Response To: Re: That's just the thing -- how do we handle our own embarrassment? Author: dmx Date: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 12:51 p.m. what you mean..LOLOLOL.By the way..my son will be 13 in May..He loves godzilla,also!! Thank You for sharing!!! It really does help to know i am not alone... Blessings, Grace > I think you just bared many souls > with your question. My 13 yo son LOVES > Godzilla. I mean loves. He draws him, > he writes stories, he makes comic books, > he reads G-Fan magazine, he scours stores > and catalogs for anything related to > him. He actually researches this monster > & keeps tracks of dates movies were > released, etc. He even wants to learn > Japanese so he can go there & see > what there is in Japan concerning Godzilla. > > Now, let's see: he's reading, writing, > drawing,even researching and showing > an interest (though not a commitment) > in learning Japanese. Do I jump up and > down in delight? NO!!!! It's so embarrassing. > Godzilla???!!!!! In these environmentally > conscious days where senstive boys are > very acceptable; where 'educational > toys' are the hip products. ESPECIALLY > amongst homeschoolers. So, I cringe, > I whisper, I slink through social situations > where my son's interests come up. And, > I'm just beginning to hold my head high > (thanks to my VERY supportive extended > family who see the value & are amused). > Well, if I'm honest, I don't hold my > head high - I'm beginning to poke my > head above my collar! :) ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: "the nut doesn't fall far from the tree" AUTHOR: Kim DATE: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 2:17 p.m. Response To: "the nut doesn't fall far from the tree" Author: Giovanna Date: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 1:21 p.m. I'm just going to POP in here. That is true ! It could be that there is all kinds of stuff going on in your house ! When I do the dreaded CHECKLIST of skills (=8-0 ) I find that we are learning pretty much all the right things... just in an unconventional way. The thing is - we need to know a) how to make enough money to live on. b) life skills. ie. what to do with the money so we don't get kicked out or starve :-) I agree with everything they were saying about chores, but not just because it is a family (not a family and an unpaid servant), but because he is old enough to think about life and how he will look after himself. That job at the tv station is probably teaching him ALL kinds of really useful things ! Responsibility, workmanship, doing a good job for pay (in this case - 'perks' like hanging out with semi-famous local people :-) The ability to have something to put on his resume :-) Volunteer work at a tv station when I was 13 got me my paying job when I was 15 ;-) > of all sorts, craft projects, woodworking > projects, a microscope...all kinds of > things. Learning is very much going > on but in an unconventional way. > Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Motivation (more) AUTHOR: Sarah DATE: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 5:09 p.m. Response To: Re: Motivation (more) Author: Giovanna Date: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 11:55 a.m. Dear Giovanna, I am very impressed by all the concerned responses and very thankful for them! I'm even starting to entertain some hope that with the help of this forum we may even achieve the "seemingly unattainable"...:-) "Motivation has to do with "internal" factors within the person. We shouldn't say that your child is not motivated by anything because something obviously has motivated him to do some things." Note that I did not say that he is not motivated, but rather that he is not motivated to do academic type activities!!! ------------- "Besides chatting on the computer, what else is he doing? Does he contribute to the household in any way? Is he reponsible for chores?" He is required to keep his room in order, clean up after himself in the kitchen and the bathroom, and he regularly runs errands for us by going to the stores. Not much more is necessary since we are five of us at home and we also have cleaning help. ------------- "Look into possible volunteer programs available through the public tv station in your area. You may already be doing this." Yes, his involvement at the TV station is volunteer work and he is extremely proud of it. We have in recent years participated in a program akin to Habitat, called The Sterling Foundation Service Day, where we helped renovate public service housing. We also applied quite recently for him to do volunteer work for the city. They run a program to help the elderly or confused to do their shopping, banking, etc., since he likes to do these things, but they have yet to return to us. He loves to help people, that is what he does a lot on the internet, also, running an ftp service, answering software problem questions, etc. -------------- "How much time is he really spending on the computer? Hours?" 10 - 12 hours some days... :-) We have 3 computers in the house on three levels. It is hard to enforce any "shutdown" since we are a very "online" family. But I think you touched upon something when you said "I do see a problem if this is the center of his life." It pretty much is right now...! -------------- "Breaking him out of a computer addiction may require way more than just "weaning". Probably more like a clean break. I wonder what he would do with his time if he didn't have the computer??" I made arrangements for the two of us to go in May to stay at a farm for at least a month, where he will have very limited (possibly no) access to a computer and we will do a lot of physical labour. ------------- "I am also recommending that you institute a family read aloud time, if you have not already done so." I have always read to my kids all the way to age 14-15. I do that with him, too. But he has some aural(general?) processing problems, his attention wanders easily, and we read mostly short stories or poetry. -------------- "Another "emergency issue" is the relationship you have with him." No negativity whatsoever there! We really "let him be" who he really is! He had VERY bad experiences in public school, so much so that a psychiatrist had to put him on Zoloft for a while because he seemed to be suicidal at the time. He finally got off of that about a year ago. We support him in his successes and we often have brainstorming sessions when we occasionally do address the issue of education. His reaction is always evasive and "reassures" us that soon he will attend to it. (His room is lined with bookshelves chock full of appropriate fiction, non-fiction and curricula!) ----------------- "you may want to read a permanent archived thread that went on a couple of months ago. It's called "UNSCHOOLING HELP!" Thank you so much, I'll do that! Sarah ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Motivation AUTHOR: Sarah DATE: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 5:46 p.m. Response To: Re: Motivation (was: Negative Consequences ) Author: dmx Date: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 1:11 p.m. Thanks dmx, You raised some very valid points! But: ......limiting > time to computer Hah...! It would be extremely painful to him. See my reply to Giovanna. That is the source of his greatest pride. He attends to it almost as a workaholic doing his daily job... > Also requiring some specific amount > of time for him to do some project of > his own choosing might be an option. He agrees every once in a while to do something but he very quickly "fizzles out", leaves it incomplete and resists, in tears, when I try to insist on him finishing it... > if he is surrounded > by people who love learning, it's probably > lurking there in him too. That is the only thought that keeps us hanging in with unschooling! My only - nagging - feeling about the whole issue is that he might be struggling with feelings of inferiority, and he would rather avoid studying in fear of failure. In grade 3 he was diagnosed as high functioning PDD-NOS with good average intelligence but developmentally behind emotionally (immature) as well as in language (was very good in math, though) by about a year and a half. "For his own good" he was placed in a special ed class, which in turn caused LOTS of problems for him, to the point when we said "enough is enough" and withdrew him from school. Sarah ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: "the nut doesn't fall far from the tree" AUTHOR: Sarah DATE: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 6:10 p.m. Response To: "the nut doesn't fall far from the tree" Author: Giovanna Date: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 1:21 p.m. > When mom and dad are reading and > busy in their own learning pursuits > and hobbies and there is excitement > in the air about pending projects and > plans...well, it can get pretty contagious!!!! My dh and I decided to learn Spanish, did all the drilling, excited conversations using the newfound liguistic skills.... nothing! He observed us with bemusement, some of the words even stuck in his own head, too, but refused to participate actively. We went on a vacation to Cuba [we are from Canada :-)] but he wasn't willing to use even those words that we knew he knew. He has a wonderful relationship with his older brother (22), whom he sees studying hard at university, and who actually diagnosed himself during his brother's LD upheaval as having autistic traits himself (he seems to be a concrete thinker, thinks in concepts, images, not words). The younger idolizes, imitates the older, whatever the older says, goes! Except in matters educational... We make a point watching mostly educational channels on TV (nobody in our house watches/is interested in soaps/sitcoms/sport events - except maybe gymnastics or tennis). He watches with us often, but when I recently borrowed a videotape on Mesopotamia and we all sat down to watch it, he whined and complained all through the viewing and made the experience quite unpleasant. Sarah ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Motivation (more) AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 6:14 p.m. Response To: Re: Motivation (more) Author: Sarah Date: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 5:09 p.m. > Dear Giovanna, > Note that I did not say that he > is not motivated, but rather that he > is not motivated to do academic type > activities!!! Yes. That's what I meant. Well, I tell you... I was very impressed reading about all of the volunteer opportunities he is involved and might be involved in the future. > We support > him in his successes and we often have > brainstorming sessions when we occasionally > do address the issue of education. His > reaction is always evasive and "reassures" > us that soon he will attend to it. Well, it sounds as if you all know exactly what he needs. The farm getaway sounds terrific. Maybe if the computer didn't take up his time so much he would be more inclined to do more "academic" things. I wonder how things will be once you all return from your farm vacation. It would be a shame if he went back to his regular schedule with the computers. 10-12 hours, Sarah! WOW! This is really an area where I would be incredibly concerned. I think this is why he isn't "motivated" to do anything else. But I think you already see this Anyhow, we are all rooting for you here! Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: "the nut doesn't fall far from the tree" AUTHOR: Sarah DATE: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 6:21 p.m. Response To: Re: "the nut doesn't fall far from the tree" Author: Kim Date: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 2:17 p.m. Thanks Kim! > That job at the tv station is probably > teaching him ALL kinds of really useful > things ! Responsibility, workmanship, > doing a good job for pay (in this case > - 'perks' like hanging out with semi-famous > local people :-) The ability to have > something to put on his resume :-) We are well aware of the educational value of all his activites; what we would like though, if he, maybe, at one point in life...:-), would, say, learn the multiplication table, not to speak a little calculus or chemistry, or some such "unnecessary frivolities".... Oh well...! Sarah ======================================== MESSAGE: Computers and Online addiction AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 6:28 p.m. Response To: Re: Motivation Author: Sarah Date: Monday, 15 March 1999, at 5:46 p.m. > My only > - nagging - feeling about the whole > issue is that he might be struggling > with feelings of inferiority, and he > would rather avoid studying in fear > of failure. Well, this is totally out of my league here since I am not a professional. :-) However, I couldn't help but wonder if maybe your son is "hiding" behind the computer. Think about it..... Maybe during chats he doesn't feel inferior, maybe he has developed some good relationships. A lot of people love online chats because their true self doesn't have to be totally revealed. Maybe the reason he doesn't want to do anything "academic" is for fear of failure. So he hides behind the computer? I could be totally off. I hope I'm totally wrong. At any rate.... even if I'm totally wrong, the amount of computer time he is having is not healthy and it is keeping him away from doing other productive things, from reading books, from learning. Giovanna ========================================Back to the TopBack to the Digest Index