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Goals and Evaluation: How To Measure Progress (part 2)
MESSAGE: Re: Demystifying Planning and Goal Setting AUTHOR: Mary DATE: Monday, 9 August 1999, at 7:41 a.m. Response To: Re: Demystifying Planning and Goal Setting Author: Giovanna Date: Thursday, 5 August 1999, at 7:12 p.m. My oldest is 14 and at about 11 or 12 he began to have some definite ideas of where he wanted his education to go. He wanted more structure and he wanted to make sure he was learning what he needed to know for later in life. It has been fun to watch him learn. We still do interest led learning. He just happens to be interested in more. We always have had the materials available- that is the planning we do and then we go from there. > > Where do you want to go from here? > Where do the children want to go? I > guess that's the first question you > ask yourself when you get down to the > nitty gritty of goal setting and planning. > > Is there any particular thing that > your children enjoyed learning about > that they might want to delve into further? > What are their interests? > One year we decided to do an in > depth study of ancient Egypt (as in > depth as a 6 year old could handle) > because we had read a book the year > before that talked about mummies which > he found totally fascinating. > Anything in particular that stands > out from this year? > Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Demystifying Planning and Goal Setting AUTHOR: Mariah DATE: Monday, 9 August 1999, at 8:25 a.m. Response To: Re: Demystifying Planning and Goal Setting Author: Giovanna Date: Thursday, 5 August 1999, at 7:12 p.m. I want you all to know how great this conversation is for someone just starting out. Even though I have been homeschooling since birth, the fact that this fall my son is kindergarten age has put me in a mild panic. "Ohmygosh!! Now I have to DO something." Reading what you all have to say takes the edge off and gives me a reality check. Thanks much, Mariah > > Where do you want to go from here? > Where do the children want to go? I > guess that's the first question you > ask yourself when you get down to the > nitty gritty of goal setting and planning. > > Is there any particular thing that > your children enjoyed learning about > that they might want to delve into further? > What are their interests? > One year we decided to do an in > depth study of ancient Egypt (as in > depth as a 6 year old could handle) > because we had read a book the year > before that talked about mummies which > he found totally fascinating. > Anything in particular that stands > out from this year? > Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: the process - the thinking AUTHOR: LizMessick DATE: Monday, 9 August 1999, at 10:25 a.m. Response To: Re: Another thought... Author: dmx Date: Saturday, 7 August 1999, at 1:53 p.m. Cerelle, I think you've hit on something important here. I think it is one of the hardest things to do as adults watching children learn - to focus on the process. An example - we took a long car trip recently, and my 6yo daughter wanted to play round after round of a game she picked up somewhere recently called "categories". It's pretty simple. You think up a category ("things you take on a picnic", maybe), and the other person has to name ten things in that category. She and I were the primary players. Her father was with us, and he could not seem to understand that her THINKING was the real exciting part of this game. Time after time, I'd give her a category, and if she struggled getting ten items, he'd start giving her "hints" ("what do you carry the food in?" "what do you need to spread on the ground?"). I kept explaining how the exciting part was watching those mental wheels turn as she made those connections in her brain, but he couldn't see past the stated object - the product - those TEN ITEMS. He'd back off for awhile, but a hundred miles later, he'd start hinting again! Now I know this could be just "male perversity" , but I think it points more to his being unable to see the process as valuable unless it immediately brought up the desired product. And, come to think of it, it isn't "male", either! -- another story just popped into my mind. My sister is a teacher, and I remember her telling me about the aide in her classroom who was bent on doing exactly the same thing. If a child working on a puzzle was having trouble, or just pondering over where to put the next piece, she'd point to just the right spot. Or if a child was painting something, the aide would suggest the 'right' colors. And I know that it has taken me long years of homeschooling and paying attention to my kids to take my eyes off the product. Or maybe, as you said in your second post, it isn't so much not looking at the product at all (because it is important), but rather seeing the process as equally important. Liz Messick ======================================== MESSAGE: Yes, yes, yes! AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Monday, 9 August 1999, at 11:25 a.m. Response To: the process - the thinking Author: LizMessick Date: Monday, 9 August 1999, at 10:25 a.m. Oh, Liz, great post. Loved the story about your husband and daughter in the car playing Categories, because I could really identify with your HUSBAND! Ha ha! That's not "male perversity" -- it's a well-SCHOOLED preoccupation with getting all the answers right every time. Thinking? What's that? We aren't supposed to have to think, are we? Seriously, there's something about the way most traditional learning environments (and evaluation systems) are set up that takes the focus off the process entirely. And if you're a good student (I always was), you learn that the product is the only thing that counts. The first person with the right product gets the gold star. So naturally, it's almost impossible for some of us to be quiet when we know the answer and someone else is still trying to think of it. My mom (the schoolteacher) told me one time about a teacher workshop she attended in which the speaker encouraged the teachers to KEEP QUIET after they tossed out a question to the class. I think they were supposed to try to remember to count up to a certain number or something like that -- just to make sure they gave their students enought TIME to think. "Think time" is an uncomfortable time for a lot of us -- a time of great tension -- and I think we probably learned to feel this way in the classroom. There's a big premium placed on having the answer (the finished product, that is) POP out of your head. If you take time to think, several bad things might happen . . . the bell could ring before you think of an answer, someone else could call out the answer ahead of you, you could run out of time on a test, someone could think you were dumb, the teacher could say you haven't studied hard enough, and so on. When a grown-up rushes in to "help" a kid arrive at an answer, they are probably just trying to protect the child (and themselves) from that uncomfortable, itchy, scary VOID -- that terrible time gap that can yawn between question and answer. I had to read a whole lot of John Holt's stuff before I could comfortably contemplate giving a child plenty of time to arrive at a solution to a problem all on his/her own. Luckily, my kids have tended to be pretty staunch "Let me figure it out myself" types, so they REMIND me to back off when I'm being a tad too "helpful." As a post script, I'd just like to say that most tests are designed to assess ONLY the rightness or wrongness of a series of products. Very few evaluation techniques try to address anything remotely connected to the learning process. At my daughter's college, however, the students receive written evaluations from their instructors (in place of grades), and these are always interesting to read. Some instructors focus on a student's growth over the course of the semester, and I always like to read those especially. Some instructors simply talk about the student's enthusiasm or abilities or hard work, as if those qualities were finite and static. Like I said, it's interesting. The evaluations tell me as much about the teacher as the student, which is kind of neat. A grade or a test score doesn't reveal much about the grader or the test. Food for thought? Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: It's that balance thing again AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Monday, 9 August 1999, at 11:34 a.m. Response To: Re: Another thought... Author: dmx Date: Saturday, 7 August 1999, at 1:53 p.m. I guess the reason I wrote that second post (like a disclaimer) is that I'm always afraid of the old pendulum swinging too far in the opposite direction. We run away from excess in one direction, only to find ourselves in the arms of another excess! We humans tend to think of things and concepts in pairs of opposites (or complements, if you will), but I always try to remember that some of this is just the way our words work. Process and product -- if we choose to use those words -- may not be telling us the whole story or showing us the whole picture, even if we try to keep both of them in mind. For sure, though, we do need to remember them BOTH. It scares me to throw out one thing in order to see the other. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Evaluating the process, not the product AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Monday, 9 August 1999, at 4:33 p.m. Response To: Evaluating the process, not the product Author: Cerelle Date: Friday, 6 August 1999, at 11:36 p.m. Thank you for bringing this up! In the educational world success is rated by how much of the workbook was finished or how much of the textbook is covered. Has anyone ever stopped to really analyze this? I believe I have copied this before on other topics we've discussed but I think it's good enough to copy it again..... >From WISDOM'S WAY OF LEARNING by Marilyn Howshall--pgs. 102-103 "We all want to have something of consequence to show for the effort expended in our children's learning process; not simply outward products, but more importantly what we want the product to represent--mature character and an educated mind. In our race to acquire the product, we may dangerously shorten the process itself, which is the very thing that will yield the vital inner growth we want to see demonstrated in our children. We will have either a "product" or a "process" mindset governing our homeschool experience. PRODUCT IS THE RESULT OR OUTGROWTH OF SOMETHING. When the product is our focus and content our first consideration, the need for short-term gratification will short change our children, robbing them of the opportunity to acquire for themselves a true and lasting education. PROCESS IS THE GRADUAL MOVING FORWARD FROM ONE THING TO ANOTHER; A LOGICAL PROGRESSION. It is the "method, means and how" of learning. To the extent that the learning process is shortened, the lasting benefit to the student will be dimished. The process needs to be our focus and the child's heart our first consideration. If the process in the priority then enough time will be allowed for a love of learning to develop, ultimately yielding a higher quality product. The process of a person's physical and spiritual growth is characterized by stretching, developing, maturing and changing--slowly." ................................ ======================================== MESSAGE: Portfolio AUTHOR: Janine DATE: Monday, 9 August 1999, at 5:37 p.m. How do you physically house your portfolio? What does it look like? Is it a three ring binder or a rubbermaid box? Do you do it or do the kids? It sounds very effective. I journal everything they do everyday and keep that as the main source of my record keeping and that's worked well so far, but I don't pay much attention to the actual work they did, believing that the journal is sufficient. I'm also without storage space. Thanks a lot. Janine ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Portfolio AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Monday, 9 August 1999, at 5:57 p.m. Response To: Portfolio Author: Janine Date: Monday, 9 August 1999, at 5:37 p.m. > How do you physically house your > portfolio? Mine is a three ring binder. In our state we are to show SAMPLES of work... not everything. So I place everything in that binder and then I submit a folder containing a sample from the beginning of the year, the middle of the year and the end of the year. Enough to show progress. I know of several moms that have gotten very creative with their portfolios and have turned them into scrapbooks that look like works of art. They include pictures of projects and field trips, brochures of places they've gone, etc. I think that's really neat. I am in no way that organized but I think something like this would make a wonderful keepsake for the future. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Portfolio AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Monday, 9 August 1999, at 10:32 p.m. Response To: Portfolio Author: Janine Date: Monday, 9 August 1999, at 5:37 p.m. Janine, I think this is one of those situations in which you can probably make up your own rules. One thing that might influence your choice of format is how your children's portfolios will be used. Are they going to be shown to an outside evaluator in lieu of test scores? Are you putting them together for your and your children's own enjoyment -- something to treasure as a memento of their early years? In our family, we don't have to submit the kids' work to an outside evaluator, but we still like to keep it all together in one place. Some years we've used 3-ring binders; some years we've used those "pocket portfolios" that come in pretty colors and designs (anywhere from one to several per child). One year we used cute little storage boxes we bought at the store. One year we used cereal boxes covered with fabric. (I'll never win an award for consistency.) If you don't have a lot of storage space, you might want to keep the kids' work in file folders in a drawer or box until you're ready to organize everything into a more formal (or aesthetically pleasing) format. But the main thing to remember is that there's probably not any one right way to do this. Do whatever is going to work best for you. The whole point is to conserve and display documentary evidence of the children's learning -- as long as the method you go with accomplishes that goal, you've done it correctly! I think it's good to encourage the kids to help decide what goes into their portfolios, and older children might enjoy organizing the final product. If the younger ones don't seem very interested in doing it, that's OK, too. SOMEDAY they'll be really happy that SOMEONE saved all their work, and they'll be delighted to look through it and remember the golden afternoon when they wrote this story or drew that picture! Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: I really enjoyed this! AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Monday, 9 August 1999, at 11:08 p.m. Response To: True Relaxation: another benefit of homeschooling Author: Julie in NM Date: Sunday, 8 August 1999, at 9:59 a.m. That's an excellent observation, Julie. It's wonderful that we are able to relax in the company of our children. I guess if we had empty houses during the day from Sept. to May, we'd soon learn to feel that we couldn't possibly relax with a house full of kids. But what's an empty house like? LOL! I wouldn't know! Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Portfolio AUTHOR: Mary DATE: Tuesday, 10 August 1999, at 7:14 a.m. Response To: Re: Portfolio Author: Cerelle Date: Monday, 9 August 1999, at 10:32 p.m. The boys each have a big three ring binder. The type with a zipper. Then they categorize their notebook with arts/books read/history/arithmetic/science/4-h/fieldtrips/sports and service. Mind you it is their choice to divide this way. I like to do it month to month. They have a catch all for the work they want in the portfolio and we do it a couple times a month. At the end of the year- each boy has a box in the attic for this years portfolio to go into. We are in Ohio and we simply show the portfolio to a certifed teacher. How about you Giovanna- do you show that to a teacher or do you have to show it to the school? Just curious in Ohio! > Janine, I think this is one of > those situations in which you can probably > make up your own rules. One thing that > might influence your choice of format > is how your children's portfolios will > be used. > Are they going to be shown to an > outside evaluator in lieu of test scores? > Are you putting them together for your > and your children's own enjoyment -- > something to treasure as a memento of > their early years? > In our family, we don't have to > submit the kids' work to an outside > evaluator, but we still like to keep > it all together in one place. Some years > we've used 3-ring binders; some years > we've used those "pocket portfolios" > that come in pretty colors and designs > (anywhere from one to several per child). > One year we used cute little storage > boxes we bought at the store. One year > we used cereal boxes covered with fabric. > (I'll never win an award for consistency.) > > If you don't have a lot of storage > space, you might want to keep the kids' > work in file folders in a drawer or > box until you're ready to organize everything > into a more formal (or aesthetically > pleasing) format. But the main thing > to remember is that there's probably > not any one right way to do this. Do > whatever is going to work best for you. > The whole point is to conserve and display > documentary evidence of the children's > learning -- as long as the method you > go with accomplishes that goal, you've > done it correctly! > I think it's good to encourage > the kids to help decide what goes into > their portfolios, and older children > might enjoy organizing the final product. > If the younger ones don't seem very > interested in doing it, that's OK, too. > SOMEDAY they'll be really happy that > SOMEONE saved all their work, and they'll > be delighted to look through it and > remember the golden afternoon when they > wrote this story or drew that picture! > > Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: The repercussions of the 'right answer' AUTHOR: Ann in NC DATE: Tuesday, 10 August 1999, at 8:56 a.m. Response To: Yes, yes, yes! Author: Cerelle Date: Monday, 9 August 1999, at 11:25 a.m. >Love this thread! Yes, I know many people who can't wait for kids (or adults, actually) to think about the answer. In fact, it often seems that you are evalutated on how fast you get the answer. If you get it quickly, then you are 'smart'. If you get it slowly, it doesn't count at all. Sigh.... Except in the real world, things don't work that way. I'd rather have a doctor who truly thought about the symptoms and came up with an answer than one who made a quick diagnosis. I'd rather have a computer programmer who thought long and hard about a computer bug and found a way to fix it, than one who did something quickly that only fixed it for a short while. Sure, some things need quick answers, but not as many as school would have you believe. I also think that the people who did so well in school can be hurt by the process. I know I spent years trying to avoid subjects that demanded I work hard, because it was so easy to take subjects that came to me quickly...or that I already understood and could come up with answers lightning fast. We had some relatives visiting here, and they brought along a set of cards that have questiosn for kids to answer. The kids were all in elementary school, so the cards had questions for 1st to 6th grade levels (as if there really were grade levels...but you know what I mean). Anyway, the kids' uncle is a nuclear physicist...supposedly smart guy, right? You wouldn't think he'd have to PROVE he was smart with kids, would you? But that urge was there... he absolutely had to make some remark to show that HE had gotten the answer FIRST!! I was cracking up....didn't he realize that almost all the time, ALL the grown-ups had the answer..that almost all the time, all the older kids had the answer? But that we were LETTING the younger ones try and come up with it themselves? At first I thought it was funny, and then I realized how sad it was -- that his self-esteem was so tied up with 'knowing the answer' that he couldn't even understand that the important part was having a relationship with the kids...allowing them to feel good about themselves. Sigh.... ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Portfolio AUTHOR: Laura in CT DATE: Tuesday, 10 August 1999, at 2:18 p.m. Response To: Portfolio Author: Janine Date: Monday, 9 August 1999, at 5:37 p.m. I keep a minimalist portfolio for each child. I have a folder per child, the kind with pockets, into which I put work samples and brochures from field trips. I keep a list of books read for my reader (I don't include every book; it's meant to be representative rather than exhaustive) as well as a journal for both school-age kids. At the end of the year, I print out the list of books read and stick it in the folder (but I don't print my journal). I also take pictures of bigger projects and put copies of the pictures into the folder. My state wants work samples, so I only include a few pages per subject, and in some cases where there's no written work, I use the list of books read as the work sample. ======================================== MESSAGE: Old saying among scientists... AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Tuesday, 10 August 1999, at 10:49 p.m. Response To: The repercussions of the 'right answer' Author: Ann in NC Date: Tuesday, 10 August 1999, at 8:56 a.m. "It's not the answer that gets you the Nobel Prize; it's the question." Now if we could just retrain ourselves (and educators everywhere) to focus more on discovering exciting new questions and less on remembering those same old boring answers! Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: One kind of measure AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Tuesday, 10 August 1999, at 11:49 p.m. Don't laugh when I say this, but sometimes the only thing that has reassured me that I was on the right track with my kids was the comforting realization that they still asked lots of questions. A post I wrote below about the importance of questions (rather than answers) reminded me of this. I've always tried to keep my ears tuned for the questions my children ask -- for that matter, I try to have respect for my own questions. And if I'm still hearing lots of good questions, I know we're still learning. It's a wacky barometer, I know, but I put a lot of faith in it. We've experienced times of Great Stagnation, too, when few questions floated on the air. Those were worrisome times, and we suffered through them like people suffer through droughts. Then...finally...the "rains" would come at last. Mild curiosity would spring up out of nowhere and gradually grow to an all-consuming, burning desire to KNOW MORE. Whew! Thank goodness! Then I could again feel that all was right in the world. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: When "connections" are made that's how you know there is progress AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Wednesday, 11 August 1999, at 12:32 a.m. Response To: One kind of measure Author: Cerelle Date: Tuesday, 10 August 1999, at 11:49 p.m. Charlotte Mason said that "Education is the science of relations." She also said that, "the child who learns his science from a textbook has no chance of forming relations with things as they are because his kindly obstrusive teacher makes him believe that to know ABOUT things is the same thing as knowing them personally." Here is an excerpt from "A Charlotte Mason Companion" Karen Andreola writes: "During the previous month--in February or March of 1997--I had pointed out from which part of the sky the Hale-Bopp comet might possibly be seen. I had read aloud from a library book on comets that traced the history of who had spotted Haley's comet and when. Nigel (her son) showed no special response but was interested in the idea of such a thing existing. Later that same week he screamed for me from the upstairs bathroom where he was supposed to be undressing for his bath. I thought there was something dreadfully wrong, so, trying to remain calm, I rushed to him. As soon as I entered the bathroom he pointed out the dark window to the night sky and said excitedly, 'There's Hale-Bopp comet!' Dad was skeptical but came bounding in with his binoculars. 'You are right, that's it!' he agreed. 'Wow, cool!' Nigel hooted. It might be that he never took a bath that night. I can't remember. But I will always remember that he made a relation with something in the universe. It contributed to his curiosity to learn more about anything out in space." I am astounded as I watch my children make "relations" in the things they learn. I see the wheels in their little heads turn. I see them thinking, analyzing. That's progress. And those special moments could never be captured or measured in a standardized test. These moments of intense progress can only be seen in daily living, through conversation. Funny how these moments seem to be dismissed or quickly forgotten. We underestimate the importance of them. ======================================== MESSAGE: testing AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Wednesday, 11 August 1999, at 6:49 a.m. Does anyone agree with the philosophy I sometimes hear-that we need to get our children used to taking tests? I have a 7th grader (we've homeschooled for 5 years), and she has always taken an alternative test, the Woodcock-Johnson, which is an acceptable test in NC. We are required to have annual achievement tests. I shunned standard testing because they do not test the way we homeschool. The Woodcock-Johnson does-part oral, part written, credit given for partial answers. Now that she is starting 7th grade I wonder if I shouldn't plan on administering a CAT at home, just to get her used to it. I would like to use it as an "exam", midway the year, and still do the WC at our regular time. Is this worth my time & effort? The WC test is very expensive, but I have always considered it part of our curriculum, and we've always been grateful that we could use this test, and not have to do a CAT. I do disagree with using them for evaluation in the younger grades. They only measure what a child did on one particular day, and one particular time. I'd like some advice! ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: testing AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Wednesday, 11 August 1999, at 9:24 a.m. Response To: testing Author: Liz Date: Wednesday, 11 August 1999, at 6:49 a.m. > Does anyone agree with the philosophy > I sometimes hear-that we need to get > our children used to taking tests? I commented on this in a message below. I think it is a good thing to learn test taking techniques. However, I don't think this takes a lot of "work" to learn. You could probably learn this in high school if you don't want to start now. There are a variety of books that claim to help raise SAT scores and teach test taking strategies. Look at Borders or Barnes and Noble or any bookstore. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: testing AUTHOR: Christina DATE: Wednesday, 11 August 1999, at 9:43 a.m. Response To: testing Author: Liz Date: Wednesday, 11 August 1999, at 6:49 a.m. This test sounds very interesting. How expensive is it? I have 5 children also in NC so cost is somewhat of a consideration for me. TIA Christina > Does anyone agree with the philosophy > I sometimes hear-that we need to get > our children used to taking tests? I > have a 7th grader (we've homeschooled > for 5 years), and she has always taken > an alternative test, the Woodcock-Johnson, > which is an acceptable test in NC. We > are required to have annual achievement > tests. I shunned standard testing because > they do not test the way we homeschool. > The Woodcock-Johnson does-part oral, > part written, credit given for partial > answers. Now that she is starting 7th > grade I wonder if I shouldn't plan on > administering a CAT at home, just to > get her used to it. I would like to > use it as an "exam", midway > the year, and still do the WC at our > regular time. Is this worth my time > & effort? The WC test is very expensive, > but I have always considered it part > of our curriculum, and we've always > been grateful that we could use this > test, and not have to do a CAT. I do > disagree with using them for evaluation > in the younger grades. They only measure > what a child did on one particular day, > and one particular time. I'd like some > advice! ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: When "connections" are made that's how you know there is progress AUTHOR: Mary DATE: Thursday, 12 August 1999, at 8:04 a.m. Response To: When "connections" are made that's how you know there is progress Author: Giovanna Date: Wednesday, 11 August 1999, at 12:32 a.m. YES! > Charlotte Mason said that "Education > is the science of relations." She > also said that, "the child who > learns his science from a textbook has > no chance of forming relations with > things as they are because his kindly > obstrusive teacher makes him believe > that to know ABOUT things is the same > thing as knowing them personally." > > Here is an excerpt from "A > Charlotte Mason Companion" > Karen Andreola writes: > "During the previous month--in > February or March of 1997--I had pointed > out from which part of the sky the Hale-Bopp > comet might possibly be seen. I had > read aloud from a library book on comets > that traced the history of who had spotted > Haley's comet and when. Nigel (her son) > showed no special response but was interested > in the idea of such a thing existing. > Later that same week he screamed for > me from the upstairs bathroom where > he was supposed to be undressing for > his bath. I thought there was something > dreadfully wrong, so, trying to remain > calm, I rushed to him. As soon as I > entered the bathroom he pointed out > the dark window to the night sky and > said excitedly, 'There's Hale-Bopp comet!' > > Dad was skeptical but came bounding > in with his binoculars. > 'You are right, that's it!' he > agreed. > 'Wow, cool!' Nigel hooted. > It might be that he never took > a bath that night. I can't remember. > But I will always remember that he made > a relation with something in the universe. > It contributed to his curiosity to learn > more about anything out in space." > > I am astounded as I watch my children > make "relations" in the things > they learn. I see the wheels in their > little heads turn. I see them thinking, > analyzing. That's progress. And those > special moments could never be captured > or measured in a standardized test. > These moments of intense progress can > only be seen in daily living, through > conversation. Funny how these moments > seem to be dismissed or quickly forgotten. > We underestimate the importance of them. > ======================================== MESSAGE: Beyond Portfolios AUTHOR: MM in TX DATE: Thursday, 12 August 1999, at 10:57 a.m. I've been giving this whole idea of process and product a lot of thought lately. The portfolios we create show a two-step process, but I believe there is a third part of our learning which can't be included in any portfolio. When we learn, or our children learn, there are stages and steps to that learning process which we must go through by ourselves. Often those stages culminate in a product - a book report, a painting, a story, a soccer game. But there is another step beyond these things too. These products shape or change our lives in some way, and that change is ultimately the goal in our learning. For example, reading and thinking about a work of literature is a process; writing a paper on it is a product; having it expand our understanding and appreciation of literature is the ultimate goal. This doesn't mean that the process and product we show in portfolios is not important. On the contrary, they are very important. We just need to be aware of the third part of this learning equation. For many years when we signed up for piano lessons, I had the same conversation with the teacher. She would ask how many recitals and competitions we were willing to sign up for, and I would always say none. Big frown. Then I would go through my whole speech on what I wanted our son to get out of piano lessons----an appreciation and love of music----and how recitals and competitions weren't his bag. The killer comment was always: "I have a son who likes to play the piano for fun because he likes music, are you telling me that isn't good enough?" I think the hardest part of being a teacher in whatever capacity is keeping this ultimate goal in mind. We all know how in public school the ultimate goal is passing some state-mandated test, but it's easy to fall into this mindset as homeschoolers too---get that SAT score, read so many books, finish so many pages in our curriculum, collect so many "hands-on" experiences. Our real challenge as homeschooling parents is to have intangible goals worthy of our children and to give them work to do which is worthy of their efforts and helps them discover our intangible goals. Marianne ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: testing AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Thursday, 12 August 1999, at 11:48 a.m. Response To: Re: testing Author: Giovanna Date: Wednesday, 11 August 1999, at 9:24 a.m. You're absolutely correct. I get a little nervous when I look at my own requirements of evaluating my children's learning. If they discuss what they're learning (using the vocabulary), enthusiastically search for more information (empty the library of all pertinent books & find lots of web pages of information), and create opportunities to share what they have learned, all objectives have been met according to my standards. Maybe not the ones the educational experts write in stone that they should know at a particular age/grade(usually they far exceed the objectives for their age/grade). I know they will gather the higher level objectives when we broach the subjects again at a later date-spiral learning. We do alot of unschooling & relaxed schooling-meaning that we study whatever they are interested in. It is hard to evaluate and test with this style of education. Also, our state does not require portfolios. But if anyone wanted to see evidence of what we have learned, (yes, I learn far more than I ever want to about all they are interested in!) we have numerous homemade books, posters, stories, reports, models, photos, scrapbooks, etc. Just take 1 hour to talk about any subject they have studied, and a test won't be necessary. I forget that sometimes, and with entering the junior high years, I've become a little unnerved about setting a good enough foundation for the high school years. I thought traditional testing might help. Your comment about there being enough time in high school to learn the skills set me straight! Thanks! Sorry about such a long reply!:) > > I commented on this in a message > below. I think it is a good thing to > learn test taking techniques. However, > I don't think this takes a lot of "work" > to learn. You could probably learn this > in high school if you don't want to > start now. There are a variety of books > that claim to help raise SAT scores > and teach test taking strategies. Look > at Borders or Barnes and Noble or any > bookstore. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: testing AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Thursday, 12 August 1999, at 12:03 p.m. Response To: Re: testing Author: Christina Date: Wednesday, 11 August 1999, at 9:43 a.m. It is expensive--$60. But it has been worth it. We've used it for the past 4 years. It only takes 1 1/2 hours (as opposed to the 8 hour CAT test our support group administers), we get immediate results, and a 30 minute consultation with a wonderful tester. She explains the scores, and gives advice on what areas need improvement, and possible curriculum to check out. She also eases our fears when particular scores may be low by pointing out dramatic improvement in another area. I then use all this information to form a focus for the following year. We may need to spend a bit more time on spelling, or creative writing or calculation speed. I must also point out that we only test for mathematical and verbal skills. We do not test for social studies, science, or other subjects since I feel these are more content than skill related. This is the bare minimum we can get by with here in NC. There are ads for these testers in the statewide publication the Greenhouse Report, published by the NCHE. > This test sounds very interesting. > How expensive is it? I have 5 children > also in NC so cost is somewhat of a > consideration for me. TIA Christina > ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: When "connections" are made that's how you know there is progress AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Thursday, 12 August 1999, at 4:06 p.m. Response To: Re: When "connections" are made that's how you know there is progress Author: Mary Date: Thursday, 12 August 1999, at 8:04 a.m. Isn't that so important! To make those connections, we need to give our children exposure, not textbooks. If Karen Andreola had not discussed the comet with her son, he might not have been drawn to that light in the sky. I have found many times with my children, just simply mentioning something spurs them on to new topics to explore. My oldest is simply an animal freak. But she also knows alot about the stock market (she mistakenly thought the bull & bear markets were real!!), Greek mythology, and medical technology. She could be tested on any of these topics, and pass, even though I/we have never formally "taught" them. To me, our discussions of all the things our children are interested in, and the opportunities to point out new things in our discussions are our favorite forms of evaluation. ======================================== MESSAGE: SAT testing AUTHOR: Joyce DATE: Friday, 13 August 1999, at 12:05 a.m. Our state requires some kind of standardized testing for homeschool students. My daughter, who is going into third grade, did poorly on her SAT. I was really shocked. Now I'm wondering if I should put her back in public schools for another year or two since I tend to be better working with my older children (ages 13 and 16). I wonder if I'm doing her more harm than good. I work part time so I don't spend huge amounts of time with her schooling, but I sure thought I was doing a better job than her SAT indicated. ======================================== MESSAGE: Please don't let one test discourage you! AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Friday, 13 August 1999, at 1:25 a.m. Response To: SAT testing Author: Joyce Date: Friday, 13 August 1999, at 12:05 a.m. Hi, Joyce-- This is exactly what I hate about testing. If we could just interpret these scores as an interesting intersection of one child and one set of questions on one particular day, all would be fine. But who among us can really be that objective and detached? If the scores are "good," we assume we're doing everything right (even though we may not be), and if the scores are disappointing, we assume we've really missed the boat somehow. Either way, the results can be extremely misleading. You mentioned putting her "back in public school." Was this her first year of homeschooling? If so, are you able to compare this year's test results with previous years? If her scores really did fall, the first thing I would try to find out is whether or not there was something going on with your daughter on the day she was tested that could have adversely affected her concentration or mood. Did she have an earache or a stomachache or some other physical situation that made it hard for her think or stay on task? Was she in a bad mood for some reason? Bad dreams the night before? A squabble with an older sibling? Think about how arbitrary it is for us to base our judgment of an entire year of learning on a young child's performance on a particular test on one randomly chosen day. The whole idea of this (not to say the "wisdom" of it) always boggles my mind. The fact that you were shocked by the results of this test indicates that your subjective evaluation of your daughter's progress this year was that she was doing pretty well, right? You didn't expect her to get a low score. Now this could either mean that (1) your subjective eval. was correct and the test -- for whatever reason -- did not provide an accurate portrayal of her development, or (2) the test picked up on something -- some problem or difficulty or oversight -- that you had missed. Either way, the test results BY THEMSELVES shouldn't make you question whether or not homeschooling is right for this child. If you felt hunky-dory about everything until the test results came in, but now you're second-guessing yourself BECAUSE OF THE TEST SCORES . . . well, cut that out! ;-) Are you familiar with the test's contents? Do you agree with its assessment of her academic skills? Consider this: Her score might have been even lower if she'd been in a regular classroom all year. There's no way to know. Don't make the mistake of assuming unproven guilt. Finally -- and I'm sure you know this deep down (but just need to be reminded) -- academic progress is only one small part of growing up healthy and wise and strong. How's your daughter doing in all those other areas BESIDES academics? Is she curious? Interested in things? Does she get along well with other people? Does she carry on intelligent conversations with family members? Does she enjoy doing things on her own sometimes? If the answer to most of these questions is yes, then I wouldn't panic. What if the test was right? What if you HAVE been a little too busy to fully meet her educational needs this past year. Is it the end of the world? No. Will she be "behind" her peers forever? Of course not. A 7/8-year-old has lots of energy and resilience. You may have been concentrating more on homeschooling the older two, assuming that the 2nd grade stuff wasn't all that critical. You know what? You certainly wouldn't be the first homeschooling mom in history who did just exactly that! My youngest always got away with murder while I worried about making sure my oldest stayed "challenged" (whatever that means). I know your confidence is a little shaken right now, but try to keep some perspective on it all. Go back to your original reasons for homeschooling and think about them again. Evaluate the year and your relationship with your children, based on those dreams and goals. How'd you do? Write it all down. Then compare that to one test score derived from one day's performance. Is there really any comparison? Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: SAT testing AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Friday, 13 August 1999, at 8:52 a.m. Response To: SAT testing Author: Joyce Date: Friday, 13 August 1999, at 12:05 a.m. > Our state requires some kind of > standardized testing for homeschool > students. Sorry to hear this. A child this young should never have been tested. What do you call "poorly"? I wrote this on a previous post but last year my child was given an assesment as part of a speech evaluation. He did TERRIBLE. You know why? He gave the "wrong" answers. Sounds obvious, right? Well, it's not that simple. The answers he gave on a lot of the questions where ones that weren't necesarily wrong---just not the ones the test wanted. Example: The evaluator showed him a picture of a backyard. It had grass, a swing set, a lawnmover and it was fenced in. She asked him, "What goes around the yard?" He pointed to the lawnmower. WRONG ANSWER. The answer is the fence. But you see, we live in the country on acres of land that is not fenced in. He does get on with daddy on the tractor and "go around" the yard cutting it. So was his answer really wrong? NO! It just so happened that the test was geared for children living in the suburbs. The evaluator admitted to this and even told me not to take the scores too seriously. She said it wasn't a true portrayal of his capabilities. I know my child. He is intriguing, curious, interesting and intelligent. He is doing wonderful. I don't need a test to tell me anything I don't already know. I know exactly where his weaknesses lie. And you know your child's weaknesses and capabilities as well. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: SAT testing AUTHOR: dmx DATE: Friday, 13 August 1999, at 12:31 p.m. Response To: SAT testing Author: Joyce Date: Friday, 13 August 1999, at 12:05 a.m. My now 13 yo was 3rd grade level when he had to take his first standardized test. We had been totally non-structured at that point. I had given him some idea of what a test would be like, but he was really scared. To get the test over quickly, he just guessed at all the answers on the math part - no figuring, just take a stab and pick a letter. Needless to say, he didn't do well (though he did get over the 20% required by the State :) ). As Giovanna says, there can be lots of reasons for not doing well on tests. Look it over; think about it. The reasons she did poorly could be similar to Giovanna's son - thinking differently, or mine - not caring; or something completely different. Try evaluating your daughter yourself and go from there. If you are really concerned, you can buy sample tests and work through them with her (FOR FUN!!) and see how and why she makes her choices. The year after my son's first test, we bought a sample test book to work through so my son would be prepared for thinking in 'test mode'. My son went in knowing he was to do his best regardless of what he wanted at the moment. Ever since, he's done fine and even enjoys taking them for the fun of it. ======================================== MESSAGE: Kids setting their own goals. . . AUTHOR: dmx DATE: Friday, 13 August 1999, at 12:38 p.m. I have been wondering, worrying, speculating about kids' own skills in setting goals and evaluating. In my better moments, I see that kids set goals every day and evaluate their progress in everything to do. But, lately, possibly since my almost-14 yo would be entering high school this year (if in school), I have been worrying that he doesn't seem motivated to set long-term goals and work steadily towards them. Will there ever come a time when really hard work will be worth it in order to reach some goal - physical or intellectual? Is this something that needs to be pushed at his age? Any thoughts out there? ======================================== MESSAGE: "Dream School" goals AUTHOR: Jane E. DATE: Friday, 13 August 1999, at 10:41 p.m. "Charm Wears Off at Disney's Dream School" is the headline of a newspaper article from last Sunday's paper (sec F). Apparently, Disney brought together experts from places like Harvard, Auburn and Johns Hopkins to help form the ideal school for their Celebration City's public school.At first, it was very popular, but now parents are lining up to pull their children out of the school. Problems with policies, evaluations, and inability to track progress were cited. When parents found out that the school would soon quit offering highschool some (including 2 past PTA presidents) pulled their children out.I had once visited Celebration on vacation and wished my kids could attend such a great school. Now, I thank God I left ps and decided to homeschool. Even the so-called expert "dream schools" have their problems.Maybe during testing next year I won't be so worried. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Kids setting their own goals. . . AUTHOR: kilbee DATE: Saturday, 14 August 1999, at 2:21 a.m. Response To: Kids setting their own goals. . . Author: dmx Date: Friday, 13 August 1999, at 12:38 p.m. My guess is that he probably doesn't know what he wants to do. My daughter was about his age when she seemed to flounder and got quite behind in her studies. I'm sure she just couldn't see the light at the end of the tunnel. We were using a boring curriculum, which didn't help. She felt like she would be in school forever. Now she is trying to catch up, because she wants to graduate this coming year. She'll do it, too, because now she is motivated by her own desire. With my younger children, I hope to line things out better for them; help them to develop a four year plan. Even still, at that age, four years must seem outside the realm of reality. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Kids setting their own goals. . . AUTHOR: Tracey DATE: Saturday, 14 August 1999, at 7:29 a.m. Response To: Re: Kids setting their own goals. . . Author: kilbee Date: Saturday, 14 August 1999, at 2:21 a.m. I have been thinking about that also, dmx.....I remember when this monthly topic section started.....I was inspired and encouraged... So I asked my 13 yos....Whatever you want to study that is what we will study! Well, he chose electronics!!!!!!! We all had an exciting time with it......I had him actively participating in putting the unit together....... At the same time I was rearranging our chore charts ...I took each room and listed what I wanted done daily, weekly , monthly etc. Then if it was their turn to say do the bathroom.....It was all there in front of them....I would ask them oh did you do the mirror to gently remind them about the weekly stuff.. One day my 13yos said...Mom dont worry I have it all figured out ...He had himself structured the weekly jobs into his own little daily schedule(am i making myself clear, I am sorry if im not) I was soooooo I felt he was finally starting to see the rationale in planning and structuring something out.... I wondered if it was because i let him be such a part in the unit planning...planning something he was interested in doing and accomplishing... Well, Somehow I feel this is as clear as mud as they say....... I think it will come with your son ,I know I have felt a glimmer of hope!!!! Sincerely, Tracey > My guess is that he probably doesn't > know what he wants to do. My daughter > was about his age when she seemed to > flounder and got quite behind in her > studies. I'm sure she just couldn't > see the light at the end of the tunnel. > We were using a boring curriculum, which > didn't help. She felt like she would > be in school forever. Now she is trying > to catch up, because she wants to graduate > this coming year. She'll do it, too, > because now she is motivated by her > own desire. With my younger children, > I hope to line things out better for > them; help them to develop a four year > plan. Even still, at that age, four > years must seem outside the realm of > reality. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Motivation AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Saturday, 14 August 1999, at 9:19 a.m. Response To: Re: Kids setting their own goals. . . Author: Tracey Date: Saturday, 14 August 1999, at 7:29 a.m. I have always had a very motivated daughter. It never occurred to me that she was that way, until so many hs mothers began asking me why. I assumed all kids were like this. I have had to think on this alot because I have a younger daughter coming up, and if I did anything to encourage this motivation in my older daughter, I want to continue it with my younger one. The only thing I can tell at this point is that I put my oldest in total (well, almost) control of what she wanted to learn. Of course, she had to keep up with her math, and do the writing assignments I planned--the topic always including whatever she was studying. I just let her go. She has studied in depth, on her own, with only me helping find resources & experts:birds (cockatiels, finches, chickens, geese), fish (marine, tropical, river), aquariums, horses, saddlery, diseases, laser technology in the medical field, dogs, houseplants, herbs, the stock market, Mythology, South Africa's history, animal breeding, millipedes, snow leopard, public speaking--if you notice, most of these have a common vein--animals & biology. Her ultimate goal--to be a research scientist analyzing animal behavior. The public speaking? She wanted to learn that, and continually practices it , because she knows she may well have to stand before a group of investors to persuade them to give her grant money to go off to the Himalayas to study snow leopards. The stock market? She wanted to know how to invest her money so it could be working for her while she was off in some jungle. These were things that we have discussed casually that she might want to learn. My husband & I look on ourselves more as advisors than teachers. She is so focused on this goal. When we brought her home from public schools 5 years ago I only asked her what she wanted to learn. Yes, she missed her friends, and at first thought her former teachers knew more than I did, but the idea of learning what she wanted to re -lit a fire in her that I saw fade in first grade. It has never gone out. It's the same old addage we here from time to time- "Don't tell me, show me." Don't teach your kids, let them learn themselves. Now, if I can just repeat this with daughter #2!e mirror to gently remind > them about the weekly stuff.. One day > my 13yos said...Mom dont worry I have > it all figured out ...He had himself > structured the weekly jobs into his > own little daily schedule(am i making > myself clear, I am sorry if im not) > I was soooooo I felt he was finally > starting to see the rationale in planning > and structuring something out.... I > wondered if it was because i let him > be such a part in the unit planning...planning > something he was interested in doing > and accomplishing... Well, Somehow I > feel this is as clear as mud as they > say....... I think it will come with > your son ,I know I have felt a glimmer > of hope!!!! Sincerely, Tracey ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Kids setting their own goals. . . AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Saturday, 14 August 1999, at 7:03 p.m. Response To: Kids setting their own goals. . . Author: dmx Date: Friday, 13 August 1999, at 12:38 p.m. I'm really glad you brought this up. I've been mulling it over and asking for input from the family, and I liked what Ariel had to say about it this afternoon. She didn't have time to sit down and write the post, so I'm going to try to tell you what she said (without goofing too much of it up!) -- what follows is more or less how I remember her side of the conversation: "It can be pretty intimidating when an adult sits you down and says, 'So! What are your goals for the next 4 or 5 years?' But if the mother, let's say, is trying to figure out her own goals, and she says to the kid, 'Look, I'm trying to decide what I want to accomplish for myself over the next 4 years, and one of my jobs is to help you do the things you want to do. So it would help me if I had an idea of what your goals might be, and then I could plan my own stuff around that.' "I think that's a less threatening way of encouraging a child to think ahead. Also, I always prefer to ask myself what all I'd like to have done 4 years from now -- rather than what I want to do over the next 4 years. It sounds like a silly little semantic difference, but the right phrasing can make it seem less scary. If you suggest to an adolescent that at 18, he might want to look back on his teen years and say, 'I did this and this and this,' that might help him begin to think in term of long-range goals. And it's more encouraging than having to think, 'Oh, gosh, I'm going to have to do all this stuff in the next 4 years.' "If your son has some ideas about what he wants to have accomplished by a certain time or age, then you can both start thinking about ways to make that happen, a step at a time." OK, now this is me talking again. I'm not the best goal-setter in the world. I tend to have big, hazy goals -- and in a sense, that works for me. I've always pretty much lived in the present, and it's not typical of me to look very far down the road and plan accordingly. I'm one of those maddening people who believe that everything will work out fine, one way or another. I do have goals (and some of them are downright lofty) and I usually have a general sense of where I'm trying to go. But I'm not a long-range planner. What I've noticed is that my children sometimes act like me (tra la la, not a care in the world), but at other times they set firm goals and draw up step-by-step plans for reaching those goals. They didn't learn it from me (or from their father, I don't think), but they seem to know how to do it! As far as the "hard work" part goes -- I know you know the answer to this, because I'm sure I've heard you talk about how hard your son is willing to work on the stuff he really cares about. Haven't I? The older they get, the more this is true, in my experience. I'm enjoying what everyone else has written about this, and I'm hoping more people will speak out about their own experiences. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: my experience AUTHOR: JeanL DATE: Sunday, 15 August 1999, at 10:08 a.m. Response To: SAT testing Author: Joyce Date: Friday, 13 August 1999, at 12:05 a.m. My daughter was about 2nd or 3rd grade when I administered one of those standardized tests (to make the state happy). She did just fine in reading and math, but only half so well in "language arts". Why? I'd forgotten to teach her how to put words into alphabetical order--and that one concept made up over half of the language arts section! We covered alphbetization that afternoon--and did she ever show progress the next year! LOL But, you can use those tests as tools best you know what sorts of questions are included and how your child answered them--just the scores or percentiles alone aren't anywhere as helpful. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Motivation AUTHOR: dmx DATE: Sunday, 15 August 1999, at 2:17 p.m. Response To: Re: Motivation Author: Liz Date: Saturday, 14 August 1999, at 9:19 a.m. I appreciate that you took time to write this. It is a key for me. Though we have a relaxed learning situation in most ways, I do insist on some things. The time we spend on those 'required (by me) elements' are creating an attitude I've wanted to avoid: get through it & call it done. I think it is affecting the way he thinks about learning, even though it's a relatively insignificant amount of time per week - maybe 15 hours or so. Anyway, it shows me I've got to do some re-thinking of that part of my son's life. I really want to do more encouraging so that he can find that self-motivation and the rewards that come with it. Thanks. ======================================== MESSAGE: Wise daughter, there. . . (long) AUTHOR: dmx DATE: Sunday, 15 August 1999, at 2:31 p.m. Response To: Re: Kids setting their own goals. . . Author: Cerelle Date: Saturday, 14 August 1999, at 7:03 p.m. Wow - your daughter's words hit home. Every time I've said to my son: What do you want to work on, I get the blank stare. But, when I've accidentally approached it the way your daughter suggested, success - and often, stunning success. Recent example: swimming. For a variety of reasons, my son never learned to swim. We started swimming with a homeschool group a couple years ago. At first, I just let him putter about, waiting for that 'desire to learn' to kick in. Well, it never really dawned in the way I hoped. But, I saw that he wanted to swim - when other kids disappeared to the deep end, he'd play basketball by himself, but wait hopefully for others to come back to the shallow end. Seeing that, I started teaching him and insisted that he spend a certain amount of time practicing. He made progress, but grudging progress. For some reason, I wasn't able to transfer my knowledge into good clues that helped him understand. The lifeguard gave him one or two pieces of advice that catapulted him forward. So, this summer, when swim lessons came along, I asked if he wanted to take the lessons - no!! Well, I knew 2 things: he wanted to be able to swim well and that the swim coaches helped him well where I couldn't seem to help him well. So, I talked with him and asked him, "Do you want to be able to swim well?" "Yes, very badly." I told him that, considering his desire to swim and the ability of those coaches to help, he would probably be glad he took them. I made it clear that I thought he should give it a try, but left the ultimate decision up to him. 3 sets of lessons later, he's in a pre-lifeguard class, can swim 5 strokes, and just stayed afloat for 10 minutes in the last class. The difference was exactly what your daughter said - the emphasis in a different place. Why I haven't articulated this myself puzzles me. I think that too I often I feel it, but act out of fear. Fear that he won't learn enough; won't want what I think is important, etc. Obviously, I'm going to have to do some more thinking on this and make some changes accordingly. Thanks for taking the time to put your and your daughter's thoughts into words. Much appreciated! ======================================== MESSAGE: Anatomy of a Murder AUTHOR: Amy H. DATE: Sunday, 15 August 1999, at 5:32 p.m. Okay, I didn't exactly kill my son's portfolio evaluator, but I did have to restrain myself from strangling her across my kitchen table. Dear Cerelle, the best cyber-shoulder in the world to cry on, asked me to share my experience with portfolio evaluation. Even though we are moving in six days and I still have to pack, I'd do anything to help out our dear mentor and friend, Cerelle. This past year was my second year homeschooling. I did the achievement test thing the first year because I didn't know any better. Then I read John Holt's "Instead of Education" and decided it was time for something different. (If you haven't read that wonderful book, hunt it down in your local library. It is powerful!) My main reason for choosing a portfolio was because I did not want my son reduced to a composite score. I read something wonderful in the tub last night which reinforces this idea: "The recording of testable features of a child's taught tricks ('skills')is held to be more important than the mysterious, exciting growth of a person." ("For the Children's Sake," Schaeffer Macaulay.) So we spent the entire year journaling, capturing, saving all the things that represented my son's "mysterious, exciting growth." There was only one problem. The portfolio evaluator I chose--whose name was given to me by a friend--did not share my educational philosophy. I disclosed to her in many, many phone conversations what I was looking for in an evaluation, that I didn't want "test scores" and even submitted six pages of detailed information on the concrete things we had done. Unfortunately, when she came for the evualuation, she glanced through our portfolio (which by that time was like a newborn baby to me!) and then proceeded to give my son a series of skills tests. If I weren't so shocked, I would have intervened. But instead, I sat across from the table as she made him read to her for probably an entire hour and then asked him to read samples that tested second, third, fourth-grade reading skills. Hello! My son is a first-grader! Like I said, I almost strangled her. I had tried so hard to spare my son that kind of labeling that it infuriated me to see her making him jump over hoops. Finally he just refused to jump any higher. I was distraught for days--and that's where Cerelle's sage advice (while she was on vacation, no less!) came in. She convinced me that I had not failed with these wise words: "Balance this one little sour note against the whole symphony you've conducted this year and I think you'll see I am right. You HAVE spared your son a TON of hoop-jumping. All year long, you made it possible for him to learn naturally and happily about things that interested him, and you spared him all those goofy classroom activities and tests and insults to his intelligence." So even though my first experience with portfolios wasn't stellar, I am convinced that it is the best representation of my son's progress. In the end, the evaluation itself (the evaluator sent me a copy of what she sent to the school district) did give a detailed description of our year and I was pleased with the end result. But next year, I'll be a little choosier about the evaluator. The bath water's getting tossed, but the baby stays. ======================================== MESSAGE: Motivation+Family Led Learning AUTHOR: Mary DATE: Monday, 16 August 1999, at 7:35 a.m. Response To: Re: Motivation Author: dmx Date: Sunday, 15 August 1999, at 2:17 p.m. My son is fourteen and would be in 9th grade at the local high school this year. There are some subjects my son loves. He has enough free time to pursue those loves and really learn them in and out. He has always loved to learn by taking one subject and pursuing it to the nth degree. We have always done the three r's along with his true interests. When it comes to teaching him things he may not have that same love for- we simply have told him that we want him to be educated and educated people need to know these things. Have we forced him?? No, I have tried at times BUT my hubby reminded me that that is no different than school. What I am saying is a child's heart that is loved, nourished and disciplined is easy to work with. A child's heart that is either stressed from too much pressure,too much t.v., puberty,too much school or who knows what needs one on one heart time with the parent before any learning can take place. Sometimes it is an issue of attitude,or an issue of a need the child has, not an issue of not wanting to learn. We have worked as a family to find what works for him and what doesn't. The end goal is to become educated. As he has grown older, he has taken that same learning style we allowed him to use and by his own desire has applied it to the areas he needs to know. Is he educated the same way they educate school children. No- he has learned different things at different times. Sometimes ahead sometimes behind. We are looking for him to become educated on his timeframe, no one elses. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: SAT testing AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Monday, 16 August 1999, at 11:23 a.m. Response To: SAT testing Author: Joyce Date: Friday, 13 August 1999, at 12:05 a.m. There's a great on-line practice testing service I just discovered. My 7th grader took 3 tests from them this morning, and since I use tests as gauges for what we might need to cover or review, and not as a reflection on me the teacher, I found them extremely useful. They were short, 10-15 minutes, thorough, and listed the results in ways that I now know exactly where her "holes" are. After doing this a few times this year, I can't wait to see the progress we've made on her "official" end of the year testing. They have grade level tests, drills, and achievement type tests. Some tests are free, which you can take right now, but you can register each child for $14.95. I'm not sure for how long this covers. It's worth looking into. I'll include a link below. Liz > Our state requires some kind of > standardized testing for homeschool > students. My daughter, who is going > into third grade, did poorly on her > SAT. I was really shocked. Now I'm wondering > if I should put her back in public schools > for another year or two since I tend > to be better working with my older children > (ages 13 and 16). I wonder if I'm doing > her more harm than good. I work part > time so I don't spend huge amounts of > time with her schooling, but I sure > thought I was doing a better job than > her SAT indicated. ======================================== MESSAGE: Here's that link for online test practice again (for our digests) AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Monday, 16 August 1999, at 11:36 a.m. Response To: Re: SAT testing Author: Liz Date: Monday, 16 August 1999, at 11:23 a.m. Thanks, Liz! I'm going to repeat that link here, since it won't show up in the digest unless it's included in the text of a message. http://www.edutest.com/ By the way, I'm curious. Did you sign up as a parent or as a teacher? Or maybe both? Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Here's that link for online test practice again (for our digests) AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Monday, 16 August 1999, at 12:52 p.m. Response To: Here's that link for online test practice again (for our digests) Author: Cerelle Date: Monday, 16 August 1999, at 11:36 a.m. As a parent. Too expensive as a teacher. > Thanks, Liz! I'm going to repeat > that link here, since it won't show > up in the digest unless it's included > in the text of a message. > http://www.edutest.com/ > By the way, I'm curious. Did you > sign up as a parent or as a teacher? > Or maybe both? > Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Anatomy of a Murder AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Monday, 16 August 1999, at 10:46 p.m. Response To: Anatomy of a Murder Author: Amy H. Date: Sunday, 15 August 1999, at 5:32 p.m. > Okay, I didn't exactly kill my > son's portfolio evaluator, but I did > have to restrain myself from strangling > her across my kitchen table. WOW! So sorry to hear it turned out like this. We had our first ever portfolio review in May. For us it went well. The person who reviewed us was a teacher (actually she is a curriculum specialist) from my son's would-have-been public school. We found her by coincidence. My son takes speech therapy at the local public school and I just started asking around at the school to see if anyone would do the review. I spoke with this lady and we hit it off right away. She was very curious and wanted to do the evaluation. She knows about homeschooling (her neighbor does it) and was excited to meet with us. I was a little nervous. I'll admit it. My son was REALLY nervous. But it went well. At the end of the meeting she broke down and told me how lucky I was to be "able to do what teachers in [this] school wish they could do." No joke... these were her exact words. She asked us to come back next year if only to show her the neat things we had learned throughout the year. ======================================== MESSAGE: TESTING ON-LINE!! GREAT SITE!! AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Tuesday, 17 August 1999, at 9:32 a.m. Got the scoop on the Edutest site--when you go there the information makes it sound like you can sign up to take tests through August 31,1999 for $14.95. I figured that even if my daughter only took 1 test, it was worth it, just for me to identify exactly the areas we need to work on this year. So I signed up both my daughters. They e-mailed me back this morning with their student id#s, and a password. We get 100 tests for each student to use between now and July 31,2000! This is a great bargain, and so helpful! The tests range from achievement test type, to grade level tests-similar to eog's the public schools take, and drills. http://www.edutest.com-Book mark this site!!! ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: SAT testing AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Tuesday, 17 August 1999, at 9:37 a.m. Response To: SAT testing Author: Joyce Date: Friday, 13 August 1999, at 12:05 a.m. See my posting above, updating information on the edutest site! > Our state requires some kind of > standardized testing for homeschool > students. My daughter, who is going > into third grade, did poorly on her > SAT. I was really shocked. Now I'm wondering > if I should put her back in public schools > for another year or two since I tend > to be better working with my older children > (ages 13 and 16). I wonder if I'm doing > her more harm than good. I work part > time so I don't spend huge amounts of > time with her schooling, but I sure > thought I was doing a better job than > her SAT indicated. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Anatomy of a Murder AUTHOR: Kim from Sidetracks DATE: Tuesday, 17 August 1999, at 5:48 p.m. Response To: Anatomy of a Murder Author: Amy H. Date: Sunday, 15 August 1999, at 5:32 p.m. he he he... BEEN THERE !! 8-) It was the beginning of last year and because of it- I did save my kids lots of hoop jumping, but still it was a very trying and stressful year because of that. > water's getting tossed, but the baby > stays. Yeah !! Me too ! Tossed her last year ;-) I anticipate a much nicer, calmer and more supportive year ahead ... 8-) ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Anatomy of a Murder AUTHOR: Amy H. DATE: Tuesday, 17 August 1999, at 6:41 p.m. Response To: Re: Anatomy of a Murder Author: Giovanna Date: Monday, 16 August 1999, at 10:46 p.m. Giovanna, I'm so glad to hear how well your evaluation went. That's the thing--I think my evaluator thought things were going really well, too. But if I had wanted to give my son an achievement test, I could have myself, without her help. I wanted something totally different. So when she whipped out the tests anyway, I was really bothered. I wholeheartedly believe in the process and want to do a portfolio again next year. Perhaps your teacher friend is available :-)! Amy > > WOW! > So sorry to hear it turned out > like this. We had our first ever portfolio > review in May. For us it went well. > > The person who reviewed us was > a teacher (actually she is a curriculum > specialist) from my son's would-have-been > public school. We found her by coincidence. > My son takes speech therapy at the local > public school and I just started asking > around at the school to see if anyone > would do the review. I spoke with this > lady and we hit it off right away. She > was very curious and wanted to do the > evaluation. She knows about homeschooling > (her neighbor does it) and was excited > to meet with us. > I was a little nervous. I'll admit > it. My son was REALLY nervous. But it > went well. At the end of the meeting > she broke down and told me how lucky > I was to be "able to do what teachers > in [this] school wish they could do." > No joke... these were her exact words. > She asked us to come back next year > if only to show her the neat things > we had learned throughout the year. > > ======================================== MESSAGE: Wonderfull AUTHOR: Jennifer Hinerman DATE: Wednesday, 18 August 1999, at 5:42 p.m. Response To: Beyond Portfolios Author: MM in TX Date: Thursday, 12 August 1999, at 10:57 a.m. I just wanted to say that I was very encouraged by your post. You are so right! This should be our goal for our children and I strive everyday to stay out of the drive for the score trap. Jen ======================================== MESSAGE: I especially love this part... AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Thursday, 19 August 1999, at 2:58 a.m. Response To: Beyond Portfolios Author: MM in TX Date: Thursday, 12 August 1999, at 10:57 a.m. > "I have a son who likes to play > the piano for fun because he likes music, > are you telling me that isn't good enough?" Oh, Marianne, well said! There's a river of sentiment out there that seems to run something like this: "If your child likes to do something, then he (or she) must continually prove himself worthy of doing it by being better at it than everyone else who does it." Thus -- all the competitions and judgings that are so avidly encouraged by "serious" teachers and coaches of any given skill or art. (Actually, I think there's a corollary to the rule above, which is: "If you like to teach something, then your students must continually prove you worthy of teaching it by being better at the thing you teach than the students of any other teachers.") And so we all learn early on to become rivals. I suggest that proving we're better at something than someone else is not a particularly valid method of evaluation, but if we ENJOY that thing (whatever it may be), then that's probably a good indication that we're on the right track. Thanks, Marianne, for taking this conversation up to a new level. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: I especially love this part... AUTHOR: Tracey DATE: Thursday, 19 August 1999, at 7:56 a.m. Response To: I especially love this part... Author: Cerelle Date: Thursday, 19 August 1999, at 2:58 a.m. Hear! HEAR!!! It is a mentality I find HS falling into also.....at my old support group EVERYTHING revolved around competiton and show..... ,,,,,I suggest that proving we're better at something than someone else is not a particularly valid method of evaluation, but if we ENJOY that thing (whatever it may be), then that's probably a good indication that we're on the right track. >>>> I love that Cerelle!!!! Great conversation! Tracey ======================================== MESSAGE: What would you look for in an evaluator? AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Friday, 20 August 1999, at 12:50 a.m. Response To: Re: Anatomy of a Murder Author: Amy H. Date: Tuesday, 17 August 1999, at 6:41 p.m. > That's the thing--I > think my evaluator thought things were > going really well, too. But if I had > wanted to give my son an achievement > test, I could have myself, without her > help. Amy and everyone: What would you look for in an evaluator? Knowing what you know now how will you handle this next time around? It is extremely difficult for me to find homeschoolers who have the same goals, vision, philosophy about education that I do---nevermind a certified teacher! We were very blessed this year with this teacher. We seemed to really click. Amazing because I never really interviewed her. We just basically hit it off well when we met and I got "good vibes". That, however, is really not a solid method to choose an evaluator. :-) What do you all think should be asked and considered when looking for an evaluator for a portfolio review? Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Tests, accountability, and other random, fly-by thoughts AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Friday, 20 August 1999, at 10:58 a.m. Response To: Anatomy of a Murder Author: Amy H. Date: Sunday, 15 August 1999, at 5:32 p.m. Amy, I've been thinking and wondering about all the reasons an evaluator might get attached to her tests, and today I read something interesting in a little pamphlet (originally published in 1974) called "Uses and Abuses of Standardized Testing in the Schools." George Weber, the author, points out that a test score distances the evaluator from the evaluation -- so that it is the test itself, and not the evaluator, that makes the judgment about a child's placement in school or readiness for reading or whatever it is that the evaluator is supposed to determine and report on. I think a test's supposed objectivity suppresses the likelihood of objection. (And I'm scratching my head and smiling at the echo of the word "object" in that sentence.) If an evaluator comes in and interviews a child and looks at his portfolio and then says something like, "In my judgment, this homeschooling experience isn't going so well," the family is going to be much more likely to doubt that evaluator's opinion than if there were a disappointing (but "objective") test score present to prove (?) the evaluator's point. It's the distance between the test and the evaluator that makes that possible, even though the test was in fact designed and created by ordinary human beings (much like the evaluator). Isn't that strange? So we're programmed to accept the wisdom of a committee of test designers who've never met our child over the subjective judgment of a person who has interacted in some way with our child and our family. Weird! And the in-the-flesh evaluator doesn't have to take responsibility for anything negative she may report, as long as the test score's there to back her up. It's strange to think of it in this way, I guess, but these days no one wants to be held accountable for anything and very few people are willing to risk sticking their necks out and making a judgment or a determination. No one wants to be held liable. If a test can do our dirty work for us, how wonderful! We're off scot-free. I think I've mentioned this before, but at Ariel's college, the students don't take tests and don't receive grades in their courses. What happens is that they produce lots and lots and lots of work (written and otherwise), and their instructors/professors submit written evaluations of their work, their effort, the originality of their thinking, and their level of interest. Wild, huh? The teachers actually have to go on record and say what they think about each student! This means, of course, that they have to get to know each student. They have to really read what the students write. And they have to think about it all. LOL! WHAT NEXT? Just my thoughts on this August morning... Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Asking from Ohio: Is it required for the child to be present in other states? AUTHOR: LeighLee DATE: Friday, 20 August 1999, at 9:31 p.m. Response To: What would you look for in an evaluator? Author: Giovanna Date: Friday, 20 August 1999, at 12:50 a.m. Hello Giovanna and everyone! I have lots to say on this subject, but will stick to two main things. First, after you make a list of what you want in an assessor, do an interview (which Amy basically did.) And second, give the assessor YOUR requirements and guidelines for the assessment. It is so interesting how different states are. My friend gives them in Iowa and spends time goal setting with the family throughout the year. Here in Ohio we meet with an assessor at the end of the year for a few hours. The assessor is almost always a homeschooler him/herself as well as a certified teacher. (The support groups even set up assessment weeks with scheduled appointments one after another.) The other big difference here I think is rarely does an assessor meet the child. An assessment is to look over a portfolio of the child's work - and have a discussion with the teacher (i.e. you) - not an opportunity to grill the child. We have had wonderful experience with our assessments and highly recommend them over tests or at least in addition to tests. In Florida and the other states, is the child required to be present? ======================================== MESSAGE: Interesting college . . . reminds me of elementary school AUTHOR: LeighLee DATE: Friday, 20 August 1999, at 9:40 p.m. Response To: Tests, accountability, and other random, fly-by thoughts Author: Cerelle Date: Friday, 20 August 1999, at 10:58 a.m. > I think I've mentioned this before, > but at Ariel's college, the students > don't take tests and don't receive grades > in their courses. What happens is that > they produce lots and lots and lots > of work (written and otherwise), and > their instructors/professors submit > written evaluations of their work, their > effort, the originality of their thinking, > and their level of interest. Wild, huh? > The teachers actually have to go on > record and say what they think about > each student! This means, of course, > that they have to get to know each student. > They have to really read what the students > write. And they have to think about > it all. LOL! WHAT NEXT? Enjoyed your thoughts! I think that is probably the very attraction to tests for many. Just wanted to comment that that is the very kind of elementary school I attended so many years ago. Different age kids put together, team teaching, hand-written evaluations, no grades, no classroom walls even. We read on the floor, used study centers, worked at our own pace, etc. and all in a PUBLIC school, can you believe it? The demise of the whole program came when the previously fresh out of college teachers started getting married and having families - then they started burning out. It was a tremendous amount of time, love and dedication that they put into their teaching. I am so grateful for having had the opportunity to be educated that way. It was one of the things that made the decision to homeschool so easy - I'd seen all those principles work ever so well. Your daughter is certain to cherish her college opportunity. ======================================== MESSAGE: Goal Evaluation AUTHOR: Debra DATE: Saturday, 21 August 1999, at 4:54 p.m. I was just wondering if anyone did anything like this: Try sitting down with your child once a month (or whatever time frame you want) and having them come up with some goals for the month, and then each month you and the child discuss the progress, and ask what "they" think of thier own work, etc. And then after evaluating the progress, set new goals for the following month (making adjustments based on progress). I haven't done this yet, but I use to be a manager in a large corporation, and this is what we did with our employees. I sort of liked it (the jargon was "Management By Objectives" or MBO if you are familiar with it). So I was just wondering if anyone was trying anything like this, and what you thought of it. Debra ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: online tests...types offered AUTHOR: Kathy in N.Y. DATE: Saturday, 21 August 1999, at 6:10 p.m. Response To: Re: Here's that link for online test practice again (for our digests) Author: Liz Date: Monday, 16 August 1999, at 12:52 p.m. > As a parent. Too expensive as a > teacher. Liz, You mentioned in post above finding out that the service didn't run out the end of August, but extended all next school year and that there were about 100 available tests. What types were they? I had hesitated signing up for such a short time, but now think I probably will! Kathy in N.Y. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Goal Evaluation AUTHOR: Susan K in Nevada DATE: Saturday, 21 August 1999, at 10:24 p.m. Response To: Goal Evaluation Author: Debra Date: Saturday, 21 August 1999, at 4:54 p.m. > I was just wondering if anyone > did anything like this: > Try sitting down with your child > once a month (or whatever time frame > you want) and having them come up with > some goals for the month, and then each > month you and the child discuss the > progress, and ask what "they" > think of thier own work, etc. And then > after evaluating the progress, set new > goals for the following month (making > adjustments based on progress). Debra, this will be the 2nd year to hs my 12 yodd and I have designed our school calendar to allow for this process. Our schedule provides for about 5 weeks of *school* followed by a week *off*. I use these terms loosely since we will not be using a set curriculum and I plan to let her be more responsible for her day-to-day activities. However, I do plan to have an evaluation process during our *off* week. This will be for her to assess her own progress and to let me know when we need to change direction. > I haven't done this yet, but I > use to be a manager in a large corporation, > and this is what we did with our employees. > I sort of liked it (the jargon was "Management > By Objectives" or MBO if you are > familiar with it). I worked in the corporate world for a number of years and used the MBO method there. It worked best for me when we had several interim review sessions. > So I was just wondering if anyone > was trying anything like this, and what > you thought of it. Debra I will be very interested in hearing from you how its working at your house. Good Luck Susan K in Nevada ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: online tests...types offered AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Sunday, 22 August 1999, at 10:30 a.m. Response To: Re: online tests...types offered Author: Kathy in N.Y. Date: Saturday, 21 August 1999, at 6:10 p.m. I'll have the answer for you in a day or two. I have to go back to the site and using our new passwords & student ID# to find out exactly what tests. I do know they offer achievement test types (multiple choice) for math & verbal skills for grades 1-8, and skill drills for lots of math topics which you may use ever how many times you'd like. You can test up to 100 times, using the various tests for 1 year for the $14.95 fee. Each section of the assessment test we took lasted about 11-14 minutes. I don't like testing, but these are nice to use as gauges. Another "tool" for teaching parents. > > You mentioned in post above finding > out that the service didn't run out > the end of August, but extended all > next school year and that there were > about 100 available tests. What types > were they? I had hesitated signing up > for such a short time, but now think > I probably will! > Kathy in N.Y. ======================================== MESSAGE: The only problem was... AUTHOR: Kathy in N.Y. DATE: Sunday, 22 August 1999, at 1:58 p.m. Response To: Re: online tests...types offered Author: Liz Date: Sunday, 22 August 1999, at 10:30 a.m. > I'll have the answer for you in > a day or two. I have to go back to the > site and using our new passwords & > student ID# to find out exactly what > tests. I do know they offer achievement > test types (multiple choice) for math > & verbal skills for grades 1-8, > and skill drills for lots of math topics > which you may use ever how many times > you'd like. You can test up to 100 times, > using the various tests for 1 year for > the $14.95 fee. Each section of the > assessment test we took lasted about > 11-14 minutes. I don't like testing, > but these are nice to use as gauges. > Another "tool" for teaching > parents. I had my daughter take the language arts practice test and it calculated the score...I wanted to print it out to review her weak areas later, but the printer jammed and when I cued the rest of the missing pages to the printer I couldn't get them. I got bounced off the net so there went our results! Oh, well...thanks for mentioning this sight...I'm sure we will sign up. Kathy in N.Y. ======================================== MESSAGE: Debra, this is pretty much what we did for years AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Monday, 23 August 1999, at 10:37 a.m. Response To: Goal Evaluation Author: Debra Date: Saturday, 21 August 1999, at 4:54 p.m. It worked out well for us, and I guess the only caution or comment I would add is that "management" (by objectives or otherwise) seemed to become less and less important as the years rolled by. I can't say whether it's because the children got older and better able to manage themselves (a pretty good guess) or because I relaxed more and more and didn't feel as anxious about having everything under some semblance of control (another likely cause). As I remember it, though, we used to have those goal sessions on a fairly regular basis around here -- once a month sounds about right -- and now we might sit down two or three times a year to figure out where we are and where we want to go and how we feel about where we've been. It's pretty loose, at this point, but I think it's still important to do this periodically...kind of like climbing up a tall tree in the middle of the forest, just to get your bearings (and to be reminded that there IS a world outside the forest). Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Testing doesn't always prove learning AUTHOR: Liz DATE: Tuesday, 24 August 1999, at 4:31 p.m. Every year my oldest daughter has tested 6 grade levels above for reading comprehension, but 4 grades below for the other verbal skills. Distresses me, but I just cataloged the information as she won't grow up to be a Hemingway. I've always considered language arts proficiency as the ability to communicate, not necessarily dissect sentences. Anyway, our orthodontist runs a contest twice a year for the best stories on a named topic, and then publishes them in his newsletter for his patients. My daughter's story about her disappearing, 9 inch millipede won!! (All I did was help correct spelling.) The whole office was talking about her story when we went in today. She beat out 145 entries from kids who attend ps & private prep schools. So there--you must evaluate test results for yourself!! I'm sorry--I just had to brag!! ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Testing doesn't always prove learning AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 12:13 a.m. Response To: Testing doesn't always prove learning Author: Liz Date: Tuesday, 24 August 1999, at 4:31 p.m. > My daughter's > story about her disappearing, 9 inch > millipede won!! (All I did was help > correct spelling.) The whole office > was talking about her story when we > went in today. She beat out 145 entries > from kids who attend ps & private > prep schools. So there--you must evaluate > test results for yourself!! I'm sorry--I > just had to brag!! HA! I just loved reading this. Thomas Edison was "labeled" as a child. Yes he was! He asked too many questions. He was strange and didn't fit the "mold" according to his teacher. His mama knew better though so she pulled him out of school and taught him at home. She could see something special in him and she didn't see his peculiarness as a problem but as a gift. Now what if his mama had allowed herself to be persuaded by the "expert" opinion of his teacher? Hmmm......... Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Testing doesn't always prove learning AUTHOR: Jody C. DATE: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 4:16 p.m. Response To: Re: Testing doesn't always prove learning Author: Giovanna Date: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 12:13 a.m. > HA! I just loved reading this. > > Not to mention...Einstien was also a flunky in the public schools! I just have to say that we've never tested our children with standardized tests and frankly I don't see that they prove that much. They don't measure musical abiility, artistic ability, the child's faith, his kindness and manners, his responisiblity to his community and family, they don't measure the heart and soul of the individual and as for me, all these things matter far more than a grade level on spelling or math. I see in the paper now that the govt. is considering throwing out the ACT and SAT and others because it is said that they are discriminatory. Jody ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Testing doesn't always prove learning AUTHOR: Inge DATE: Monday, 30 August 1999, at 6:51 p.m. Response To: Testing doesn't always prove learning Author: Liz Date: Tuesday, 24 August 1999, at 4:31 p.m. Fortunately in California we are able to exempt our children from the statewide testing which uses the Stanford 9 and supplements (STAR). Here's part of a letter I wrote to our local newspaper: The main issue I have strong feelings about is the STAR testing program. I exempted my son from the testing and did so for many reasons. Since I work individually with my son I know exactly how he is doing in all academic areas. In the IHS program we are required to turn in work samples monthly. These work samples include projects, portfolios, essays, etc. They show that my son can use the knowledge he has learned and not just regurgitate it for a test. I believe that reliance on standardized test scores reduces initiative, independence, creativity, and willingness to take risks in learning situations. According to FairTest, the National Center for Fair and Open Testing, "They do not measure the ability to write, to use math, to make meaning from text when reading, to understand scientific methods or reasoning, or to grasp social science concepts. Nor do these tests adequately measure thinking skills or assess what people can do on real-world tasks.". “Standardized tests cannot measure creativity, problem solving, decision-making, judgement, or social skills.”. I also believe that achievement testing creates unnecessary, unproductive stress. Poor test scores would decrease self esteem. I was particularly glad I had exempted my son from the STAR testing when I learned the following from Pat Coady: “The test given this year was augmented by math questions which were taken from the new standards. It is expected that total scores on math will be lower than last year, because, as one of the people who wrote them said, the standards are for the future, not the present. They were chosen as a goal (higher than Japanese students, for example) not as a measure of what anyone expects kids to know right now.”. As achievement tests become more important in determining school accountability and in things such as grade advancement, teachers feel more pressure to teach to the test. This leads to time being spent preparing for the testing and a narrowing of the curriculum. At the elementary school where I work I have heard teachers say “Why should I spend much time on science? We’re not tested on it.”. I have done enough research in education to know that the STAR testing does not come from sound educational practices, but from politicians. Testing is started in second grade even though scores for young children are much less reliable than for older students. Young children have more variable attention. They develop quickly and unevenly. Even if a score was accurate today, it could be wrong next month. I saved a quote from the San Jose Mercury News: “Believing that you can improve schooling with more tests is like believing you can make yourself grow taller by measuring your height.” Inge -------- End of this digestBack to the TopBack to the Digest Index