Digests from the KALEIDOSCAPES MONTHLY TOPIC
(HOMESCHOOLING) DISCUSSION BOARD
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Deschooling Digest (part 4)
======================================== MESSAGE: How we have been deschooling for 4 weeks now.....(long) AUTHOR: Pam J. DATE: Thursday, 24 September 1998, at 5:44 p.m. Response To: Lee and Giovanna sent me here!:-) Author: Marla Date: Thursday, 24 September 1998, at 8:35 a.m. We took our 7 yr. old son out of p.s. on Aug. 31 and have been deschooling ever since. We wake up usually between 6:30 to 7:00, we have breakfast within the next hour and a half and then straighten up beds and such. My son either plays on the computer, or with his Legos, or sometimes I let him watch T.V. (though I do tend to limit that). Usually by 9 I have turned the T.V. off for the day (or at least until 3:30 when Bill Nye the Science Guy is on). We have played Monopoloy, card games (like Concentration which he loves!), we have gone on two field trips so far: one to the Zoo and one to the Aquarium, we read alot---well actually I do a lot of reading to him, we have talk about anything and everything. We do errands like shopping and banking which have led to discussions about what Safe Deposit boxes are for, or why the Safeway Deli dept. has to keep it's hot food under the heat lamps at 100 degrees or more (he noticed the thermometer and read the temp. to me!). Yesterday I felt brain dead so for the first time I tore a bunch of worksheets out a book, Comprehensive Curriculum and laid them out on a table for him to choose some to do. Out of 5 I had chosen, he picked 3 and ended up doing about 1 and 1/2 of them. I got to see what was easy for him to do, but of course I also got an idea of where he needs help (the worksheets he AVOIDED). I made note but left it at that (for now). Later I asked if he would read something to me but all he wanted to read was his latest Lego Magazine...so I said, "Go for it!". Hey, right now reading is reading. However, I can now tell you EVERYTHING you've ever wanted to know about Legos! :-) We started to read The Adventures of Odysseus (which we had ordered through Amazon.com) yesterday! Even though the book is a bit above his reading level---he's fascinated by the Greek Gods and all the scary monsters, like the Cyclops! What prompted me to order the book was the keen interest he expressed in the Cyclops when we read a little something about Jason and the Argonauts (hey, there are Cyclops EVERYWHERE in case you hadn't noticed!) He was hooked! That led to an on line trip to Amazon to do a search for some appropriate books and we are now sailing along with Odysseus and Co. Sorry this is so long...my point is that I am REALLY taking my time with all this. I don't push anything. I have been just trying to get to know what he is interested in, his particular learning style (he is definitely a physical/kinesthetic type of learner), and let him heal slowly from the trauma of public school. I suppose MY deschooling looks a lot like unschooling, but then that is how my son has directed it. I found by just turning off the T.V. for most of the day, surrounding him with books and things to read/explore/play with that his natural love of learning quickly emerged! Forgot to mention that today after his 9 am dentist appointment we went to the library and checked out four videos to watch (2 educational, 2 just for fun)...guess that will do it for today! Tomorrow he wants us to "build" a T.V., making one big enough that he can fit behind and put on a show! Now that he is used to the idea that I am his learning partner/teacher things are slowly falling into place. Hope that helps! Good luck! ======================================== MESSAGE: Eureka!!!!!!!! I think I understand :o} AUTHOR: Marla DATE: Thursday, 24 September 1998, at 6:26 p.m. Response To: Lee and Giovanna sent me here!:-) Author: Marla Date: Thursday, 24 September 1998, at 8:35 a.m. Thank you to everyone that has helped me out. Today I received "The Homeschooling Handbook" by Mary Griffith. I took a little what I've learned here, alittle from WWOL, and from her book. Needless to say the kids played very well today, no "school". In her book she took 3 different approaches and used several examples of each. This helped me to see them in comparison and the light just clicked! I'm more in the category of Eclectics: Balancing exploration with "basics". At this point this is where I'm comfortable a little Math-U-See, and a little Understanding Writing. And after that I think I'm going to try more child-led learning. Maybe by the time my 4yo is "schooling" (next year) I'll be ready to shuck more. I'll wait prayerfully and see. Thanks again, God bless. In Christ Love Marla ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: I didn't know this place was here... AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Thursday, 24 September 1998, at 7:26 p.m. Response To: I didn't know this place was here... Author: Kim Date: Thursday, 24 September 1998, at 12:22 p.m. Kim-- >From one short-attention-span person to another, let me assure you that focusing is really not one of my strengths. But it does NOT seem to interfere with my ability to learn...or to interfere with fostering my children's education. I have a good friend who is a doctor. She is one of those highly organized and efficient people, and I always feel like a undisciplined wretch when I compare myself to her. (Rule #1: Don't compare yourself to others. :-D ) But she always calls me "the creative, artistic type" and acts as if being disorganized must be a very exciting way to live! You know what I do? When I start feeling bad about being so unstructured and undisciplined, I reel in some of the slack around here and try to do things in a *slightly* more organized manner. That usually makes me feel a little better, and once I'm feeling better, I can relax again. This cyclical approach works well for me, because I thrive on change! I can get really excited about a new schedule (not necessarily an academic schedule, but I haven't always stopped short of that, either), but I LOVE it when things get so busy and exciting that the schedule gets booted out the window. I always talk about the "continuum" of homeschooling/unschooling. Rather than try to place myself firmly somewhere on that line, I allow myself to slide freely in either direction, depending on our current mood and circumstances. Does this make sense? Cerelle > Right now- I've got the short attention span leading > the no attention span (my 8 yo) She "just wants to > colour"... The only problem is math. She has a lot > of natural talent, but is moving BACKWARDS in it... probably > from the lack of practice in it... I admit to letting it > slide over the summer. > I admit to being a decidedly unschool mom... but some > days I think *I* lack the discipline and organization... > and EVERYTHING to it to continue... I can make lesson plans... > and units and on and on... but - so ... I need advice !! > ======================================== MESSAGE: Unschooling vs. reading, 'riting, and 'rithmetic . . . AUTHOR: Vanessa DATE: Thursday, 24 September 1998, at 8:16 p.m. I just read Sandi's post a ways down("How we're deschooling"), and for some reason the excitement hit me. I have wanted to unschool from the moment I first checked into hsing a couple of years ago. I could not find anyone, at the time, who did this, so I did some eclectic schooling which was daring for me, since the person closest to me did a strong structure of school away from school with a particular curriculum. My good friend whom I turned to when I began thinking about hsing may have been considered an unschooler, but I live so far away from her that I couldn't really see what she did, nor did she help me to understand it when I talked to her, and she has since turned to a mail correspondence curriculum. By the end of our first school year we had left behind much of the curriculum we had chosen and made up our own unit studies. I then checked out Cafi's web page (which I loved), and that boosted my freedom even further. This year we've simplified our schedule, and I love how it's working. I've gotten a wonderful math program that allows the kids to create their own math, and it's fantastic; I'm very pleased. Also we are trying to do more of what the kids want to do. Okay, so what's the big question then? This is for all you unschoolers; I think I sensed the answer in Sandi's post, but spell it out to me please gals. Do you require your children to at least do math (or any other particular subjects), or do you even let that be up to them? There are some days I want to just spend the entire day digging into something with the kids, but there's a part of me that feels we need to do our math and our writing stuff first - you know the ol reading, writing, and arithmetic. My oldest three have the reading part down; they love to read, but they're not so crazy about writing (they do surprise me once they finish their assignments, but they would certainly NOT do this type of stuff on their own), and I feel math is essential. If I leave it up to them, do you suppose they will just want to do it and will turn to those math books on their own? When I have the time I read every post I can manage that deals with unschooling, and yesterday I did order the unschooling handbook mentioned on the mainboard. I missed the discussion however, but I can't wait to read it. I guess I'm still trying to decide where I fit with this one. It's just that the unschooling method has always appealed to me - now just to figure out how it will work for us. I'd appreciate any help you might be willing to offer. Thanks in advance ladies! ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Sneaking the math in... AUTHOR: Ann in NC DATE: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 4:20 a.m. Response To: Unschooling vs. reading, 'riting, and 'rithmetic . . . Author: Vanessa Date: Thursday, 24 September 1998, at 8:16 p.m. >We don't do any required math or writing at our house. And I LOVE spending an entire day just doing a project the kids have gotten into. But I must admit that I certainly ENCOURAGE math and writing...but I do it in a real life way. I do emphasize how I use math every day. Depending on the child's age, I'll take an extra minute while cooking to do a little blurb on fractions, or for an older child, I'll show them the VISA bill and explain WHY you can't pay the minimum payment, and how much that would cost over the long run. That sort of thing. I also play math games with the kids, or get GREAT math books from the library and do crafts/activities/whatever from those. For the writing, I find contests, and the kids LOVE writing for that. Also the usual writing to grandma's, or writing to authors, or writing to publishers to tell them they made a mistake in a book. I've found if I can wait long enough, my kids get an interest in ANYTHING -- right now my 11 and 13 year olds are heavily into WWII. I would never have believed THAT 3 months ago... Ann ======================================== MESSAGE: Great! Read here for more help. AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 6:50 a.m. Response To: Eureka!!!!!!!! I think I understand :o} Author: Marla Date: Thursday, 24 September 1998, at 6:26 p.m. > > Thank you to everyone that has helped me out. Today > I received "The Homeschooling Handbook" by Mary > Griffith. I took a little what I've learned here, alittle > from WWOL, and from her book. Needless to say the kids played > very well today, no "school". In her book she > took 3 different approaches and used several examples of > each. This helped me to see them in comparison and the light > just clicked! I'm more in the category of Eclectics: Balancing > exploration with "basics". At this point this > is where I'm comfortable a little Math-U-See, and a little > Understanding Writing. And after that I think I'm going > to try more child-led learning. Maybe by the time my 4yo > is "schooling" (next year) I'll be ready to shuck > more. I'll wait prayerfully and see. Thanks again, God bless. > In Christ Love Marla Nothing wrong with a little MATH U SEE and a little Understanding Writing....UNLESS they are fighting you tooth and nail not to do it. Learning should not be a drudgery for ANYONE. Marla, if I were you this is what I would be doing... *Limit TV---or better yet, turn it off completely. *Increase library visits and read aloud time. *Keep MUS and Understanding Writing to 1 1/2 per day (both things combined) *Play Games....Dorling Kindersley has a great game called NUMBER QUEST. To play you have to add, subtract, multiply and divide. ;-) It is great fun (for ages 7+) and it even comes with a cheat sheet for the little ones. This is great mental math practice and it is FUN! I'll put the link below so you can get a catalog. Games like Scrabble, Monopoly, Yathzee...all great fun and very educational. *Exemplify learning as a lifestyle. YOU need to find a hobby and learn about it. Let them see you read and do research and enjoy the process of learning. Gardening, scrapbooking, quilt making, sewing, baking, bird watching, political activism. Whatever you want! *Talk! Talk about current events, Hurricane Georges, the computer glitch of the year 2000. Conversation opens the door to many learning opportunities and it could also intice an interest. Once you see your children interested in something, jump on it. Don't do the research for them but do encourage them by giving them FREE TIME and resources. You want your children to be participants in their education--not spectators. This is what happens in most public/private schools. The teacher arrives with her lesson plans and the children sit passively while the teacher lays out the agenda for the day. That's not how you learn TO LEARN! This is why most children will shrug their shoulders and claim they have no passions, no hobbies, no interests in anything. They've never been given the chance to become interested! They always follow someone else's agenda! You said you have Wisdom's Way of Learning, right? Read pp.113 to 130 and also read the rest of the messages on this board. Even the ones wayyy down there. Some real gems here!!! Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: OOOPS! AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 6:54 a.m. Response To: Great! Read here for more help. Author: Giovanna Date: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 6:50 a.m. > *Play Games....Dorling Kindersley has a great game > called NUMBER QUEST. To play you have to add, subtract, > multiply and divide. ;-) It is great fun (for ages 7+) and > it even comes with a cheat sheet for the little ones. This > is great mental math practice and it is FUN! I'll put the > link below so you can get a catalog. I'm supposed to also include the URL in the body of the message so it will appear in the permanent archives. Here is the URL for the free Dorling Kindersley catalog! http://www.meglomedia.net/bookroom/giovanna.html Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: I want to believe this, I do, I do, but . . . AUTHOR: Vanessa DATE: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 6:56 a.m. Response To: Re: Sneaking the math in... Author: Ann in NC Date: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 4:20 a.m. it sounds so much harder and time consuming than just having them work from their math book each day. Am I missing something maybe? I want our lives to be simple, yet full of enrichment. I'm okay with the every day math, but what about my 6th grader (if he were in ps) who was doing 7th grade math last year? I lean more and more toward complete unschooling, yet, at the same time, I don't want to handicap my children by not providing appropriate challenges. Trying to come up with ways to incorporate the higher maths seems like it will be more difficult than using a text book. My son likes electronics and the sciences; I feel with his interests a good understanding of math is important. Do you find this is an area children turn to on their own? I really am interested in understanding how this works. Perhaps I need to deschool some more. :o) > > I do emphasize how I use math every day. Depending > on the child's age, I'll take an extra minute while cooking > to do a little blurb on fractions, or for an older child, > I'll show them the VISA bill and explain WHY you can't pay > the minimum payment, and how much that would cost over the > long run. That sort of thing. > I also play math games with the kids, or get GREAT > math books from the library and do crafts/activities/whatever > from those. > For the writing, I find contests, and the kids LOVE > writing for that. Also the usual writing to grandma's, or > writing to authors, or writing to publishers to tell them > they made a mistake in a book. > I've found if I can wait long enough, my kids get an > interest in ANYTHING -- right now my 11 and 13 year olds > are heavily into WWII. I would never have believed THAT > 3 months ago... > Ann ======================================== MESSAGE: Yeah... maybe **I** need to deschool some more... hmmmm.... nt AUTHOR: Kim from Sidetracks DATE: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 7:17 a.m. Response To: I want to believe this, I do, I do, but . . . Author: Vanessa Date: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 6:56 a.m. > I really am interested in understanding how this works. > Perhaps I need to deschool some more. :o) ======================================== MESSAGE: Two Questions/Statements AUTHOR: Lynette DATE: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 7:28 a.m. Before I ask these questions, let me make sure you know I'm not anti- de-schooling or un-schooling. However, I have a few questions/statements I'd like bounced off y'all -- 1. What about self discipline? I realize that it's liberating for kids to "make their own learning choices" in some respects, but sometimes we all must do things we don't particularly like. Don't get excited -- I'm not saying we should make our kids miserable in order to "make" learning take place. I'm just concerned that some kids are so used to "doing as they please" education-wise that if they get to college, or for some reason end up having to return to public school out of necessity, they'll either rebel or get very discouraged. 2. What about balance? I think it's important that in our desire to "detox" our kids after PS that we don't let the pendulum swing too far in the other direction. On another board (not Kaleidoscapes), a mother wrote in concerned that her 7 yo daughter didn't want to do ANYTHING except play at a friend's house, watch TV. Groaned about reading or being read to, don't even mention math. In the same respect, I don't believe because a child completes four worksheets in a morning that any learning has necessarily taken place. I'm only saying these things because eight years ago, when I was completing my teacher certification training, the buzzword in education was "whole language" this and "whole language" that, how it benefited our children, how wonderful it was that it helped their creative abilities, how it didn't stifle them as opposed to other methods of teaching reading and language. Now we have a generation of kids who are now junior high/high school age, products of the "whole language" method who can barely read or write. The pendulum is starting to swing the other direction toward phonics again, at least in PS. Please don't misunderstand, I am not trying to offend anyone, I am just wondering about these things. Thank you for reading this, and I humbly apologize if anyone feels offended. (By the way, we are homeschooling our 1st and 2nd grade kids) Lynette ======================================== MESSAGE: Catch 22? Not really... AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 7:54 a.m. Response To: I want to believe this, I do, I do, but . . . Author: Vanessa Date: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 6:56 a.m. Vanessa wrote: > it sounds so much harder and time consuming than just > having them work from their math book each day. Ha! Well, in some ways you're right. When you leave it all up to the math book, you can lie back & put your feet up & let the book and the kids do all the work, right? BUT! What if the kids are resisting and miserable? What if they're doing all the exercises and problems everyday, but not really "getting" it? What if they're "getting" the math, but learning to hate it at the same time? And worst of all, what if they're able to work problems in a book, but NOT able to apply those concepts in real-life situations? There are zillions of kids (schooled and homeschooled) out there who've been working out of those math books every day of their lives, but can't figure out what half of 3/4 is when they're in the kitchen, trying to halve a recipe. I've seen really smart people who bog down when they have to use math in an actual, real-life context. > Am I missing > something maybe? I want our lives to be simple, yet full > of enrichment. I'm okay with the every day math, but what > about my 6th grader (if he were in ps) who was doing 7th > grade math last year? I know I sound like a broken record, but check out the library's math section. There are amazing math resources out there that are the farthest thing in the world from a textbook. If you have a child with a real talent for math, he's probably ready for something much more sophisticated than an 8th-grade text. Turn him on to Pythagoras and Euclid and the ancient Babylonians. If you want something REALLY thorny, check out the Mayans' number system (base 20!). Get into the theoretical stuff. Have you already played around with pi and phi? Math is beautiful. It can almost seem like magic. But try finding the beauty of math in a typical textbook -- I dare you! > I lean more and more toward complete unschooling, yet, > at the same time, I don't want to handicap my children by > not providing appropriate challenges. Trying to come up > with ways to incorporate the higher maths seems like it > will be more difficult than using a text book. "Easy" isn't always the goal. Believe me, we unschooling types often put forth a great deal of mental and creative effort! But as I've said before -- once it's all flowing, once that "learning field" is activated and crackling, the momentum will carry you along. As my husband once said (I think this is quoted in a post down at the bottom of this board), the greatest effort involved is just "getting to the river." After that, the current will take you where you need to go. I don't mean to make it sound so mystical, but this is really true! You'll see! > My son likes > electronics and the sciences; I feel with his interests > a good understanding of math is important. Do you find this > is an area children turn to on their own? You bet it is! My son's the same way (and about the same age as yours). Kids who are fooling around with science can't HELP bumping into all the math that's imbedded in scientific concepts. Example: My son is learning scientific notation (exponential expressions) through his interest in magnets! And logarithms are just around the corner... > I really am interested in understanding how this works. > Perhaps I need to deschool some more. :o) Here's a funny paradox: Deschooling = LEARNING. That's a formula you can take to the bank. You can use textbooks for years and years and never really learn much. But once you step out into the world and start reading real books and actually USING math -- in context -- the learning snowballs. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Some LONG answers and some different ways of looking at this AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 9:03 a.m. Response To: Two Questions/Statements Author: Lynette Date: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 7:28 a.m. > 1. What about self discipline? I realize that it's > liberating for kids to "make their own learning choices" > in some respects, but sometimes we all must do things we > don't particularly like. Don't get excited -- I'm not saying > we should make our kids miserable in order to "make" > learning take place. I'm just concerned that some kids are > so used to "doing as they please" education-wise > that if they get to college, or for some reason end up having > to return to public school out of necessity, they'll either > rebel or get very discouraged. Let me share what has happened here at home. This thing about "self discipline" and "dying to self" are things that I've often thought about as well. There are a lot of opportunities for my children to show self discipline and responsibility outside of "academics". In our home my children are responsible for chores and that is a big lesson in self discipline. Also, my children are responsible to treat each other kindly and that is a HUGE lesson on "dying to self." It's hard for me to write down eloquently why I believe a self directed, delight directed approach to education will not come in the way of learning self discipline. All I can tell you is what is happening here at home. Ever since my children have been given the freedom to pursue their own interests I've seen a HIGHER level of self discipline. My son is making a book about what he has been learning regarding outer space and space exploration. They have also made web pages (with the help of a nine year old homeschooled girl) that documents everything we have been learning. I wish you could see his space notebook! He takes so much pride in it. He writes on it with his best handwriting, he carefully organizes all of the information he downloads off the internet and places it in sheet protectors. It's a real joy to see him work on this. I see a high degree of self discipline here. As far as college..... I believe that if I child is allowed to explore and learn about what interests him he will walk into college with a strong purpose and strong goals simply because they will have become individuals that know themselves very well and know what they want. I know I didn't walk in to college with this and I ended up wasting time and money. Actually, I'm ashamed to say that in high school I wanted to take some agricultural electives. I was so interested in all that kind of stuff. I didn't. You know why? I was afraid my peers would label me a "redneck." Isn't that dumb? But I knew that's what they would do! Well, I went into college and changed my major twice and didn't even finish what I thought I wanted to study. So much for the "self discipline" that supposedly comes from following a structured course of study. I think when a child is given the freedom to learn about what is truly interested in he will have self discipline because the responsibility to learn will fall in his lap---that responsibility will not belong to the "teacher." When a child takes over a topic and does the research on his own that is SELF DISCIPLINE! Remember that the outcome of education should not be just to learn facts (although that is also important) but to learn how to learn. Read my post titled "Great! Read on for More Help" (or something like that) a little ways down on the board. It will have more information on this. We all have to do things in life we don't particuarly like. Me? I have to do laundry. I deplore laundry. Just ask my husband! :-) I don't think though that giving children freedom to learn about what interests them is going to stop them from doing things they don't find "fun" but are necessary to do. This type of lesson is not something you learn from academics anyhow. Making Billy do 35 multiplication problems just 'cause he has to do all of the problems in the workbook page isn't going to teach him to be "self disciplined." It's going to teach him that multiplication is a big BORE! Self discipline is a character trait that is more often than not "caught"--not really "taught." Education should be a delight! I don't mean "fun"...I mean a delight. Delight is constant state. Fun is just temporary. Yes, my children need to learn how to spell, do math and all of that. And they are learning all these things. Why does it have to be a drudgery? Who says it has to be? Do you know of any adults that go to the library and read up on something they have no interest in whatsoever? What about college? How many people go to college to study something they have no interest in? (Ok...maybe I made that mistake but you know what I mean) I've never met anyone who went to college to learn something they LOVED and failed. They took the required subjects that were irrelevant to the major and excelled. They wanted to meet their goal despite of the hurdles. Taking those courses were part of the journey. > 2. What about balance? I think it's important that > in our desire to "detox" our kids after PS that > we don't let the pendulum swing too far in the other direction. > On another board (not Kaleidoscapes), a mother wrote in > concerned that her 7 yo daughter didn't want to do ANYTHING > except play at a friend's house, watch TV. Groaned about > reading or being read to, don't even mention math. In the > same respect, I don't believe because a child completes > four worksheets in a morning that any learning has necessarily > taken place. The child you are mentioning above needs to be DESCHOOLED. Watching TV all day is not deshooling. Deschooling is not about a "balance" either. It is not about just the right amount of worksheets and the right amount of free time. It is about children and parents getting the public school mentality out of their heads and becoming partners in learning. It's about understanding that learning is lifestyle--not about something you do between the hours of 8am-3pm. It is about living life and learning naturally---just like a baby learning to walk. Learning in my opinion takes place when a child has grasped information and has been able to make it connect with other relevant or irrelevant things. Charlotte Mason called this the "Science of Relations". Let me quote here from "A Charlotte Mason Companion" by Karen Andreola. "The conventional system of education prides itself in what it covers. 'It will all be covered on the test,' says the classroom teacher. Confused and concerned mothers have written me saying that they believe in what Charlotte says but are worried they won't be covering everything the schools cover." "If we desire our children to acquire personal knowledge of God, other people and themselves, and things, we accomplish this by letting the children fill in the "holes." We can't teach them everything. What can we do? We can expand their horizons with a wide range of interests and then practice the fine art of education--that art of standing aside to let a child develop the relations proper to him. It is needless to worry about the "holes" if we belive that "education consists in the establishment of relations." ............. Some moms believe that the icing on the cake would be for a child to LOVE education, to LOVE books, to LOVE to read, to LOVE to research further than what the texbook is asking him to do--to make those "connections" on their own without mom prodding, forcing. I challenge everyone to think differently. This is not the icing on the cake--THAT IS WHAT YOUR CHILD SHOULD BE DOING. If he or she is not then please be encouraged! There is a way! This can be possible! But you have to think outside that "box." (as Cafi Cohen would say) Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Challenges! (the philosophical side to this [grin]) AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 9:08 a.m. Response To: I want to believe this, I do, I do, but . . . Author: Vanessa Date: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 6:56 a.m. > I lean more and more toward complete unschooling, yet, > at the same time, I don't want to handicap my children by > not providing appropriate challenges. The thing is that YOU aren't the one that's supposed to be providing the "appropriate challenges". Your children are supposed to be challenging themselves! Read my post above yours titled "Some LONG answers and different ways of looking at this". I think that's what it's titled! LOL! Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Two Questions/Statements AUTHOR: Debbie K. DATE: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 9:31 a.m. Response To: Two Questions/Statements Author: Lynette Date: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 7:28 a.m. >I'm just concerned that some kids are > so used to "doing as they please" education-wise > that if they get to college, or for some reason end up having > to return to public school out of necessity, they'll either > rebel or get very discouraged. I've gotten to know a lady who unschooled her boys their whole lives, (before her children, she was a jr. hi English teacher), and her oldest, by choice went to a jr. college to get the flavor of "school", and now attends Hampshire College in Mass.(BTW, he didn't read until he was 11, began publishing Nation magazine at 15, and now writes a column for Home Ed Magazine). I think it all relates to motivation. If they're motivated (which comes from within) to achieve a desired goal, then they'll do whatever they need to do to achieve *their* goal. Yes, I think it would be difficult to return to ps and do things that they see no value in doing. >Now we have a generation of kids who are now junior high/high school > age, products of the "whole language" method who > can barely read or write. The pendulum is starting to swing > the other direction toward phonics again, at least in PS. > IMO, this is because they're depending on a "method", and their "education" is not well-rounded. When we hs, I think we have a much better opportunity to integrate, not segregate, subjects, and whole language can make sense. My personal feeling is that phonics is helpful and necessary; the problem is that the ps pendulum swings to extremes and consequently there is not the balance there should be. > Please don't misunderstand, I am not trying to offend > anyone, I am just wondering about these things. Thank you > for reading this, and I humbly apologize if anyone feels > offended. Not offended here! In fact these are questions that I, and probably many others, have had and continue to have. As I have studied and researched and drawn upon personal experience (as someone who attended ps, priv school, and a state univ), I find myself seeing the validity of "unschooling". I think your questions are good ones that need to be asked, unfortunately I don't think there are any easy and clear-cut answers---except to do what we're doing---hsing our kids, trying to meet their individual needs, using all of the available resources and "methods" we can. We don't have to do the "latest craze" in education methodology---we do what works for us and our children. > (By the way, we are homeschooling our 1st and 2nd grade > kids) Congratulations! Have fun! Debbie K. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Some LONG answers and some different ways of looking at this AUTHOR: Lynette DATE: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 9:54 a.m. Response To: Some LONG answers and some different ways of looking at this Author: Giovanna Date: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 9:03 a.m. > Let me share what has happened here at home. > In our home my children are responsible for chores and that > is a big lesson in self discipline. Also, my children are > responsible to treat each other kindly and that is a HUGE > lesson on "dying to self." That is SO true -- where else do we learn self control with our family and at home, where we are more "ourselves" than anyplace else? >They have also > made web pages (with the help of a nine year old homeschooled > girl) that documents everything we have been learning. I > wish you could see his space notebook! He takes so much > pride in it. He writes on it with his best handwriting, > he carefully organizes all of the information he downloads > off the internet and places it in sheet protectors. It's > a real joy to see him work on this. I see a high degree > of self discipline here. Pride in their work -- what a wonderful concept that is so often lacking in the "hurry up and get your worksheet done" mentality. > I went > into college and changed my major twice and didn't even > finish what I thought I wanted to study. So much for the > "self discipline" that supposedly comes from following > a structured course of study. I know, I did the same thing -- first got an art degree, then added a teaching certificate, now I'm an aspiring writer. *sigh* > We all have to do things in life we don't particuarly > like. Me? I have to do laundry. I deplore laundry. Just > ask my husband! :-) I don't think though that giving children > freedom to learn about what interests them is going to stop > them from doing things they don't find "fun" but > are necessary to do. This type of lesson is not something > you learn from academics anyhow. Making Billy do 35 multiplication > problems just 'cause he has to do all of the problems in > the workbook page isn't going to teach him to be "self > disciplined." It's going to teach him that multiplication > is a big BORE! Self discipline is a character trait that > is more often than not "caught"--not really "taught." > Delight is constant state. Fun is just temporary. That is a quote worth keeping and hanging on the wall, Giovanna! 8-) > Let me quote here from "A Charlotte Mason Companion" > by Karen Andreola. > "The conventional system of education prides itself > in what it covers. 'It will all be covered on the test,' > says the classroom teacher. Confused and concerned mothers > have written me saying that they believe in what Charlotte > says but are worried they won't be covering everything the > schools cover." Thank you for your thoughts, Giovanna. Yes, they were eloquent. I can tell that you are very passionate about this -- thank you for showing me more and explaining more. Lynette ======================================== MESSAGE: :-) AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 10:42 a.m. Response To: Re: Some LONG answers and some different ways of looking at this Author: Lynette Date: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 9:54 a.m. > Pride in their work -- what a wonderful concept that > is so often lacking in the "hurry up and get your worksheet > done" mentality. :-) Well, let this "proud mama" show you where the webpages are so you can visit. Rachel's Pond-- http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Tower/4636/animindex.htm Andrew's Universe-- http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Tower/4636/index.htm These pages are not finished. We are going to be adding to them as we learn about things. I figured this would make a nice "portfolio" to show the evaluator as well. The real genius behind these little webpages though is Jessica Tanguay, a nine year old homeschooler/unschooler! She designed them. You said something up there that's really important. "Hurry up and get the worksheet done" mentality does nothing for the process of learning. Sometimes in order the get the real benefit the PROCESS of learning might take a long time. Sometimes we bypass all of that in order to show a lot of "content." CONTENT is not where it is at! Yes it is important to know certain things....don't get me wrong. But if the whole focus is on the content then the child will never appreciate anything the process of learning. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: also Discovery toys AUTHOR: Marla DATE: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 3:23 p.m. Response To: OOOPS! Author: Giovanna Date: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 6:54 a.m. I find that We also enjoy discovery toys and my friend is having a party next Tuesday night. I've gotten their Think-It-Through tiles and they are great. I've bought a set for each child one as cheep as $0.25, at a used book sale.Thats all they have is fun learning toys. I'm going to take a closed look at some of them and say they are for Christmas and birthdays because I said I didn't need any more things for school. Also we spend less than an hour on MUS and UW together and some days I feel we are cheeting but I'm sure it will get longer the harder it gets and I will keep the 1 1/2 in mind to keep it from getting out of hand. Also thanks so much for all your help and paitence with me. You have helped me tremendously. And I'll keep reading and learning along with my kids. :o} In Christ Marla ======================================== MESSAGE: I'm almost ready for the next step but not quite... AUTHOR: Lacie DATE: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 3:28 p.m. Response To: Catch 22? Not really... Author: Cerelle Date: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 7:54 a.m. You have convinced me that I need to look into other ways of learning math! I have to say that it is really scary for me because my older kids are only going to be home a few more years. Will they be ready for college math...YIKES! OK back to the library in 2 weeks. (I'm going to my brother's to watch his children while he and his wife go in vacation and I really doubt if they have a math section in their library;]) BTW, I have been suprised by how much math I do use or learn in everything I've been doing lately...Art Appr.: placement, mass,; Personal Defense: force, resistence, momentum; Dark Room: ratios, fractions, estimations. This has been great but can my kids do it?8} Lacie > Vanessa wrote: > Ha! Well, in some ways you're right. When you leave > it all up to the math book, you can lie back & put your > feet up & let the book and the kids do all the work, > right? > BUT! What if the kids are resisting and miserable? > What if they're doing all the exercises and problems everyday, > but not really "getting" it? What if they're "getting" > the math, but learning to hate it at the same time? And > worst of all, what if they're able to work problems in a > book, but NOT able to apply those concepts in real-life > situations? > There are zillions of kids (schooled and homeschooled) > out there who've been working out of those math books every > day of their lives, but can't figure out what half of 3/4 > is when they're in the kitchen, trying to halve a recipe. > I've seen really smart people who bog down when they have > to use math in an actual, real-life context. > I know I sound like a broken record, but check out > the library's math section. There are amazing math resources > out there that are the farthest thing in the world from > a textbook. If you have a child with a real talent for math, > he's probably ready for something much more sophisticated > than an 8th-grade text. Turn him on to Pythagoras and Euclid > and the ancient Babylonians. If you want something REALLY > thorny, check out the Mayans' number system (base 20!). > Get into the theoretical stuff. Have you already played > around with pi and phi? > Math is beautiful. It can almost seem like magic. But > try finding the beauty of math in a typical textbook -- > I dare you! > "Easy" isn't always the goal. Believe me, > we unschooling types often put forth a great deal of mental > and creative effort! But as I've said before -- once it's > all flowing, once that "learning field" is activated > and crackling, the momentum will carry you along. As my > husband once said (I think this is quoted in a post down > at the bottom of this board), the greatest effort involved > is just "getting to the river." After that, the > current will take you where you need to go. I don't mean > to make it sound so mystical, but this is really true! You'll > see! > You bet it is! My son's the same way (and about the > same age as yours). Kids who are fooling around with science > can't HELP bumping into all the math that's imbedded in > scientific concepts. > Example: My son is learning scientific notation (exponential > expressions) through his interest in magnets! And logarithms > are just around the corner... > Here's a funny paradox: Deschooling = LEARNING. That's > a formula you can take to the bank. > You can use textbooks for years and years and never > really learn much. But once you step out into the world > and start reading real books and actually USING math -- > in context -- the learning snowballs. > Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Help explain to dh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AUTHOR: Marla DATE: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 5:31 p.m. Now that I've figured out the difference between unschooling, ecletics, and school-at-home how do I explain this to my dh? At the dinner table tonight he found out that Brandon had no "school" today!! Then I told him that we are going to be schooling a little differently(ecletic). I did'nt give him the style name but ds explained just english, and math and I like it. Ooooops! His response was less than enthusiastic or encouraging. I need to deschool him!;o} We don't see eye to eye on many, many things. Such as morals (his are a little looser than mine), spirituality (relationship with Christ) and some others that are minor compared to these. Don't get me wrong he is a good man and believes in God and salvation but......anyway thats another area completly. I feel I understand how and why I'm doing the things I'm doing but how do explain that we arn't having science, history, and all the rest. What I said was we are basing it on what interest ds and through all this we will get in all these things in. Plus no computer games, Nintendo, or tv until late in the afternoon. Any suggestions appreciated. Until then in prayer for His blessings. In Christ Marla ======================================== MESSAGE: Math rant (long) AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 6:50 p.m. Response To: I'm almost ready for the next step but not quite... Author: Lacie Date: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 3:28 p.m. Lacie, If it's TOO scary, leave yourself an escape hatch. You don't have to donate all your textbooks to Goodwill. Older children who are genuinely interested in math (or at least interested in doing well on the college boards) may want to use them sometimes, and that's fine. My oldest taught herself algebra with a textbook. So did the Colfax kids. The important thing is that it's the kid's desire that brings them to the textbook. Then, and perhaps ONLY then, the text is a tool, rather than a weapon (that is, a weapon with which we bludgeon them over the head!). I imagine that your children want to do well in college math, too -- just as much as YOU want them to. That should be a motivation, but not a threat...as in, "Now unless you want to flunk out of college, you'll buckle down and get to work on these problems." The goal is for your children to be able to say to themselves, "Math is going to be important to me, therefore it's worth whatever effort I put into it now." Another way to look at this is from the point of view of a college admissions officer. (I'm talking about college, here, because that seems to be your main worry.) Say you're an admissions officer, and you're trying to choose between two homeschooled applicants. One writes an application essay about how devoted his mother was, how she stood over him every day and made sure he stuck it out all the way through pre-calculus. The other one writes about the efforts he made, on his own, to understand higher math and apply it to a wide range of personal endeavors. Which would you choose? During my daughter's application process, we learned that most colleges are really looking for students with drive. "Self-starting" and "self-motivated" were the terms we ran into again and again. They did NOT want passive kids who'd had their education spoonfed to them, either by a school or a conscientious mom. Now, for the other half of my rant: I took every math course my high school offered so I could get into a good college. I HATED math, but I worked hard enough to make good grades in it. When I got to college, I found out I'd taken so much math in high school, I didn't have to take it in college. "Yay!" I said. "I'm free!" And I never took another math course for as long as I was an official student. A couple of years after I graduated from college, I decided I wanted a GOOD math experience. I bought a math book for adults and worked my way through it. It was just another crummy math text, full of exercises and problems, but I didn't mind doing them because it was MY choice. No one was grading my work or making assignments...and I actually enjoyed the math! I worked just as hard at it as I had in high school (maybe even harder), but this time it was with pleasure instead of loathing. This is the kind of experience I've tried to provide for my children all along, by letting THEM be in charge of what they learn. Everyone enjoys learning things. What people DON'T enjoy is being forced, pushed, prodded, compared, and judged. End of rant. :-D Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Does your DH like to read? Would he be interested in reading THE UNSCHOOLING HANDBOOK? AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 7:02 p.m. Response To: Help explain to dh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Author: Marla Date: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 5:31 p.m. There is also this new, neat magazine for dads called HOMESCHOOL DAD. This month's issue (Aug/Sept.) covers all the different approaches to home education and gives a brief description of each. Maybe you can get the copy and leave it in the bathroom??? That's where my hubby does most of his reading! ;-) You can call them at 970-434-6946 (Colorado). Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Two Questions/Statements AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 7:33 p.m. Response To: Two Questions/Statements Author: Lynette Date: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 7:28 a.m. These are good questions -- thanks for asking them! I think we all wrestle with them to a greater or lesser degree. After 12 years of being in this "game" and sending our oldest off to college, this is the way I approach them... > 1. What about self discipline? B-I-G difference between parent-discipline and self-discipline. The first does not lead naturally to the latter. I'm continually amazed (and occasionally worried) by how much my children demand of themselves. My 16-year-old has two jobs, and her bosses often tell me that she works harder than their adult employees. My college student complains about the slackers and goof-offs in her classes. My 13-year-old is often appalled by the irresponsible behavior he witnesses in his age-mates. Our kids have always had to do chores around the house and barn, but I'm hardly a task-master when it comes to academics! They're pretty much their own bosses, when it comes to what they decide to learn. > 2. What about balance? In the same sense that I wouldn't want any child of mine eating fudge for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, I strive to maintain an interesting and intellectual environment here at home. I make good food and good books available to my kids, while some things are definitely off limits. No Kool-Aid, no Jerry Springer. But I don't tell them they HAVE to eat the carrots, and I also don't tell them they have to do math. I may sneak those carrots into the spaghetti sauce, though, and I've been known to find ways to sneak more math into their daily lives! Re: Whole Language Teaching fads seem doomed to failure, no matter how promising the original theory appears. In truth, that's one reason I sometimes feel nervous about encouraging other parents to homeschool the same way we have. "Our way" has been a huge success in our home, with our children. But I have no way of knowing how accurately I can describe exactly what we do or how we do it, or how completely I can account for all the variables. And I think it's ALWAYS a bad idea to adopt a method you don't fully understand or feel comfortable with. I suspect many of the whole-language failures arose from situations in which the teachers were being forced to use a method that seemed foreign and uncomfortable to them. > Please don't misunderstand, I am not trying to offend > anyone, I am just wondering about these things. Good for you! It's important to wonder, doubt, and question. Caveat emptor, you know... Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: "Do you require your children to at least do math?" AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 9:01 p.m. Response To: Unschooling vs. reading, 'riting, and 'rithmetic . . . Author: Vanessa Date: Thursday, 24 September 1998, at 8:16 p.m. Vanessa-- I loved your post! I want to respond to this part of it in particular: > There > are some days I want to just spend the entire day digging > into something with the kids, but there's a part of me that > feels we need to do our math and our writing stuff first > - you know the ol reading, writing, and arithmetic. I'm going to turn your question on its head, sort of, by asking how many days of the week you feel that way. All 7 days? Probably not. Could it be...5 days? And why 5? Hmmm, let's see -- probably because school kids spend 5 days a week with their teachers, doing "schoolwork." But wait! WE'RE the teachers now, and we spend just about all day, every day, with our kids. And if we're on our toes, just about everything can be seen as a valuable learning experience. So already, it's starting to look a little different. Now, what about college? Most college classes don't meet 5 days a week. They usually meet just 2 or 3 days a week. (Many high schools have started copying this schedule, too.) The 5-day-a-week rule doesn't seem to apply to ALL formal education. What if homeschoolers did math 2 days a week, instead of 5? What if they did some writing 3 days a week? Could it all average out in the long run? What about summer school? Did you ever take just one course that met for 3 hours every day? Could homeschoolers do THAT? And if a child were completely immersed in, say, the history of Mesopotamia one month, would it really matter that he wasn't doing much math during that period? Then again, he might be learning some math after all! He might be learning how the ancient Mesopotamians' math system worked. He might be learning that the history of computation is pretty fascinating stuff, and he might be getting a whole new angle on our own numeration system. Do I require my kids to do math? No, not in the sense of "require." Do I see to it that they have plenty of opportunities to use math on a regular basis? Yes, I do try to do that. We have mathematical conversations in the car. We play games that "require" math skills. I encourage the kids to do mental math, to NOT be lazy about working with numbers, and I encourage them to explore many different ways of arriving at the "right" answer. The same thing goes for reading and writing. They're a big part of our lives. We read and write every single day...but we don't have a set time of day or a set activity for "teaching" reading and writing. Sometimes the kids want to make sure they understand or learn something that isn't a natural part of our lives. Like French. Then THEY will suggest doing French every day, perhaps even at a certain time with certain materials. "Great!" I say. And I try to help make that time available to them. They might even say, "Remind me, OK? MAKE me do my French every day." And I say, "Well, I'll try to remember to remind you, but if it's important to you, I'm sure you'll remember on your own." And guess what? They do! > If I leave it up to them, do you suppose they > will just want to do it and will turn to those math books > on their own? Maybe not. Then what? My 13-year-old hasn't worked out of a math book more than about 10 days this whole year. (Those 10 days were days he decided to do a little textbook work.) But he still does a lot of math... He likes me to write impossibly long problems for him to figure out. He likes to solve word problems. He likes to fool around with big numbers and unknowns. I have to admit, though, he doesn't often willingly open a math text. > I guess I'm still trying to decide where I fit with > this one. It's just that the unschooling method has always > appealed to me - now just to figure out how it will work > for us. I'd appreciate any help you might be willing to > offer. You could always try it for a month or so and see how it feels. If it makes you too nervous, you can always call it an "experiment" and do something else. Then again, you might get "hooked"... :-D Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Homeschool Dad Magazine AUTHOR: Debra DATE: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 9:26 p.m. Response To: Does your DH like to read? Would he be interested in reading THE UNSCHOOLING HANDBOOK? Author: Giovanna Date: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 7:02 p.m. > There is also this new, neat magazine for dads called > HOMESCHOOL DAD. > You can call them at 970-434-6946 (Colorado). > Giovanna They also have a website at: http://www.acsol.net/hsd/ ======================================== MESSAGE: This calls for l-o-n-g talks, honesty, and open minds AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 2:24 a.m. Response To: Help explain to dh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Author: Marla Date: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 5:31 p.m. Marla, Husbands are parents, too, and as such, they have a vested interest in how their children's education is being conducted. Ideally, a homeschooling dad is an equal partner in the concern. It sounds to me as if you and your husband might need to work a little harder in the communications area! Naturally, husbands and wives don't always see eye to eye about everything. But this is pretty important stuff -- this is the child you both share. Look for common ground. What do you AGREE about? Make sure you let him know the ways you ARE seeing eye to eye. And even when you disagree, let him know you respect his right to hold his own opinions by listening closely to what he has to say. I'm a big believer in the old "active listening" routine. Prove you're listening by paraphrasing his words and bouncing them back to make sure you've understood what he's trying to say. If he nods his head and says, "Yeah! That's right!" you'll know you understood...and HE'LL know you were paying attention. When you're still trying to digest a new idea, it's difficult to put it into words and try to explain it to someone else. (I'm trying to digest quantum physics right now, and there is absolutely NO WAY I could possibly speak intelligently about it to anyone else at this stage of the game.) On the other hand, you CAN express your excitement about what you're reading and learning. Just as you might say, "Boy, I'm reading a GREAT book about the American Revolution," you can also say, "I've been reading the most interesting things about the whole learning process. It's really opening my eyes to new possibilities in the ways homeschooling can work." I imagine your husband wants what's best for your son just as much as you do. If he's concerned, that's a good thing! It means he cares. (You'd REALLY feel awful if he just shrugged his shoulders and said, "Do whatever you want...it's your problem, not mine.") If he seems hypercritical of the way you're homeschooling, extend a sincere invitation to him to get more involved. Suggest ways he can contribute to his son's education. (Doesn't have to be strictly academic, either.) I think it's extremely important not to confuse your son by letting him wind up in the center of a psychological tug-of-war between his parents on the issue of deschooling. If need be, take it slowly and gradually. Do obviously educational (but fun!) things together, and be sure THOSE get discussed at the dinner table. Farther down on this board, there's another thread about husbands and deschooling. Be sure to read what's been posted there. Good luck! Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: I appreciate and love your posts! Thanks so much. I've decided . . . AUTHOR: Vanessa DATE: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 10:27 a.m. Response To: Unschooling vs. reading, 'riting, and 'rithmetic . . . Author: Vanessa Date: Thursday, 24 September 1998, at 8:16 p.m. that I want to do this, but I'm scared. How could I be scared? Well I am thinking - Will it really work? Am I inviting chaos, by ridding ourselves of order? Will my kids develop a desire for learning in this way, or will they fill the time I turn back to them with idle pleasures? How do I create the atmosphere? We're getting ready to go camping next week, and I thought how fun it will be just to explore nature, then I wondered what I'd do when my kids start asking questions that I can't answer, THEN I remembered I'm not supposed to be the one to provide all the answers - let them do it on their own. How will they do that? Once the moment is passed will they want to search it out later, or will they brush it off? How do I keep them from "playing" all day? We have a TV, but we don't watch "television". We do watch videos selected from the library, and we are choosey about which ones we watch. It seems now, when we are not working on "school" or running errands they are filling their time with play - Barbies, Legos, house, etc. or videos (they do like to read too, but play usually dominates their time). These are not bad things, but how do I get them to turn to interesting, educational things? How do I help them get their minds going? How do I help them NOT idle their time away? If I am to let them take the lead, how do I stay involved? Do I wait for them to begin the process, or do I drop things here and there (aside from filling our house with games, magazines, projects, etc.) - you know, get things going? If I did that, it would be what "I" thought was interesting, so how do I do this? Sorry for so many questions. Perhaps this is something that must be learned through trial and error on my part. I'm hoping the unschooling handbook comes today, so I can take it camping with me. I'm hoping it will provide some good insight. Thanks again for all your wonderful words of wisdom. Vanessa ======================================== MESSAGE: Courage and creating that atmosphere AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 12:04 p.m. Response To: I appreciate and love your posts! Thanks so much. I've decided . . . Author: Vanessa Date: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 10:27 a.m. Oh, Vanessa, I remember being scared. The very idea of homeschooling scared me stiff. "How will I EVER pull this off?" I wondered. If I hadn't been backed into a corner, I may never have done it. (I'm pretty courage-impaired, generally speaking.) But I did know what I wanted, and it sounds like you do, too. Knowing what we want is half the battle. And it helped me to know that others had managed to make it work (true of both homeschooling and unschooling), and that's why I'm so willing to talk about my own experiences. I owe a big debt to all the other mothers and fathers who had already written about homeschooling when I was first starting out. > How do I create the atmosphere? I always love to read what Giovanna has written about creating that atmosphere. She gets right down to the brass tacks! I think it starts with little things which build and build and build. Incidental interests become all-consuming obsessions, and before you know it, that atmosphere is THERE. The kids can't wait to get to the library to find books about knights in armor, or they're tearing through the family map collection at 2:00 in the afternoon, looking for Madagascar. Or maybe they're suddenly turning out marvelous stories, or they're figuring out how to save money on the grocery bill. > We're getting ready to go camping next week, and I > thought how fun it will be just to explore nature, then > I wondered what I'd do when my kids start asking questions > that I can't answer, THEN I remembered I'm not supposed > to be the one to provide all the answers - let them do it > on their own. How will they do that? You'll still be their guide and mentor. You'll be the "friendly adult" who takes an interest in their interests. Sometimes I go to Bill, the chief curator at the museum, and I say, "Listen, I'm trying to figure out exactly how natural carbonation happens, and none of the books I've looked at seem to give a good explanation." And he'll say, "Oh, you should talk to Jim. He knows about all that geological stuff." And then he sends me to Jim. Bill is a friendly expert who takes my questions seriously. He can't always answer my questions on the spot, but he can usually point me in the right direction. I try to be like that for my kids. I encourage them to explore on their own, but I also do what I can to help them find the answers to their questions. Any positive response to a child's question is a validation of his curiosity. Even if all you do is say, "Wow! What a FANTASTIC question!" you've reinforced his willingness to inquire into the nature of things. > Once the moment is > passed will they want to search it out later, or will they > brush it off? Oh, they'll brush some of those questions off, for sure. That's only natural. We don't follow up on all our own questions. But the idea is to keep encouraging them to explore their interests, day after day. Curiosity becomes a habit. > It seems now, when we > are not working on "school" or running errands > they are filling their time with play - Barbies, Legos, > house, etc. or videos (they do like to read too, but play > usually dominates their time). These are not bad things, > but how do I get them to turn to interesting, educational > things? How do I help them get their minds going? How do > I help them NOT idle their time away? Adults who are lucky enough to have found careers they love probably feel they're playing, too, even when they're actually working very hard. You can still guide some of your children's activities, which will be easier once you've tuned in to the things they're really interested in. They might "play" by taking apart old, broken appliances or by watching ant trails. Tools can be toys, and toys can be tools. Order things from catalogs like Edmund's Scientifics. Keep magnifying glasses and prisms and magnets in plentiful supply. > If I am to let them take the lead, how do I stay involved? > Do I wait for them to begin the process, or do I drop things > here and there (aside from filling our house with games, > magazines, projects, etc.) - you know, get things going? > If I did that, it would be what "I" thought was > interesting, so how do I do this? True. But through careful observation, you'll know what THEY think is interesting. Keep that journal of their activities! Look for common themes. Write down the questions they ask. You'll get the hang of it. In the beginning, YOU may be the one doing most of the "follow up." But also, by all means, do explore your own interests...in full view of the children. Work on your own curiosity. Show them how it works. Children really do want to be like their parents, which gives us a great advantage. When they see you having a great time learning about something, they'll get the idea that learning is a pleasurable activity. Enthusiasm is nearly always contagious. > Sorry for so many questions. Perhaps this is something > that must be learned through trial and error on my part. Bingo! Now you've got it! Have fun... Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Thank you for posting your story, Ben, it was really a welcome site to see! (nt) AUTHOR: sharon DATE: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 12:09 p.m. Response To: Re: DESCHOOLING Author: Ben Stevens Date: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 1:45 p.m. > Hi. > I stumbled across this thread looking through homeschooling > pages. Heres my story: > I attended public school from the age of 4 (kindergarten) > until the age of 13 (9th grade). I was about a year younger > than all my classmates and I was more studious, so my socialization > was overall a negative experience. I got bloody noses and > a broken finger from my classmates (and we all know that > socialization is the most important part of public school, > right? [sarcasm]). Stupid rules bothered me, too. I've never > believed in mindless oaths or pledges (which is what our > Pledge of Allegiance is to me, since I was taught it before > I could even understand what it meant); so, I never took > the Pledge of Allegiance very seriously. In first grade, > when I was caught not saying the pledge in a droning, brainwashed > tone, I had to recite it by myself in front of the class. > ...Then there was the time in second grade when my teacher > wouldn't let me go to the bathroom, so I peed my pants right > there in the classroom. What really made me resent public > school, though, was being held back by my teachers. My third > grade teacher actually *yelled* at me in front of the class > for working ahead one page in a workbook. When I got to > high school, my curriculum became more flexible...they put > me in advanced classes with even *older* students. Needless > to say, I wasn't very popular in those classes. Fortunately, > when I was in eight grade, my mother heard about homeschooling. > In ninth grade, I took three classes at the high school > and did the other subjects at home. Tenth grade was pure > unschooling. That's when I my interest in foreign languages > and linguistics really picked up. If I had stayed in school, > I still wouldn't be able to say more than "¡Hola! ¿Qué > tal?" with a bad Pittsburgh accent. I got antsy studying > alone at home, so I crammed grades 11 and 12 into one year > and enrolled in college at age 16. Now I'm a college senior > (age 20) majoring in Spanish, and able to speak other languages, > as well... > I know that was a lot crammed into one paragraph. In > any case, the important thing is that leaving school was > educationally the most influential decision of my life. > It allowed me to explore subjects which public schools consider > unimportant. Leaving school was a fairly easy process, with > no legal trouble or social withdrawal. The only mistake > I made when starting homeschooling was not to register with > some agency to record my progress, since that interfered > with my opportunity to choose a college. Basically, colleges > were bothered by the lack of traditional grades (A-F) on > my applications. Here's my advice to all homeschoolers: > *Make sure your last years (grades 9-12) are well documented! > Good SAT scores are not enough!* But college is another > issue... > Ben Stevens ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Help explain to dh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AUTHOR: Ryan DATE: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 12:39 p.m. Response To: Help explain to dh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Author: Marla Date: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 5:31 p.m. Is it truly necessary to deschool him? Maybe the way he sees it, your kid isn't learning a whole lot... If you only focus on what interests the student, then when the time comes for the ACT or SAT, there's definitely gonna be some areas that are lacking. If your child can't get into college, would you not agree that you've done him a great disservice by not sending him to school? Maybe your dh has the right idea after all... > Now that I've figured out the difference between unschooling, > ecletics, and school-at-home how do I explain this to my > dh? At the dinner table tonight he found out that Brandon > had no "school" today!! Then I told him that we > are going to be schooling a little differently(ecletic). > I did'nt give him the style name but ds explained just english, > and math and I like it. Ooooops! His response was less than > enthusiastic or encouraging. I need to deschool him!;o} > We don't see eye to eye on many, many things. Such as morals > (his are a little looser than mine), spirituality (relationship > with Christ) and some others that are minor compared to > these. Don't get me wrong he is a good man and believes > in God and salvation but......anyway thats another area > completly. I feel I understand how and why I'm doing the > things I'm doing but how do explain that we arn't having > science, history, and all the rest. What I said was we are > basing it on what interest ds and through all this we will > get in all these things in. Plus no computer games, Nintendo, > or tv until late in the afternoon. Any suggestions appreciated. > Until then in prayer for His blessings. In Christ Marla > ======================================== MESSAGE: The facts about college and interest-led homeschooling AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 1:45 p.m. Response To: Re: Help explain to dh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Author: Ryan Date: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 12:39 p.m. Ryan wrote: > ... If you > only focus on what interests the student, then when the > time comes for the ACT or SAT, there's definitely gonna > be some areas that are lacking. This may sound like a logical assumption, but in fact, it's not an accurate statement. Children who have followed their own interests usually do very well on college entrance exams. (My daughter was one.) The SAT is designed to measure math and verbal skills...and the ability to apply those skills in new contexts. These skills are normally well-developed in students who have been allowed to explore freely and encouraged to delve deeply into the subjects that interest them. > If your child can't get > into college, would you not agree that you've done him a > great disservice by not sending him to school? But deschooled children DO get into the best colleges. See Karl M. Bunday's "Colleges That Admit Homeschoolers FAQ" -- http://learninfreedom.org/colleges_4_hmsc.html Deschoolers/unschoolers take education very seriously -- they just follow an untraditional path. Deschooling is NOT the same thing as settling for a spotty education. A careful reading of the other posts here should make that clear. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Ryan AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 3:13 p.m. Response To: Re: Help explain to dh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Author: Ryan Date: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 12:39 p.m. > Is it truly necessary to deschool him? Maybe the way > he sees it, your kid isn't learning a whole lot... If you > only focus on what interests the student, then when the > time comes for the ACT or SAT, there's definitely gonna > be some areas that are lacking. If your child can't get > into college, would you not agree that you've done him a > great disservice by not sending him to school? Maybe your > dh has the right idea after all... Have you read any of the messages on this board? If a child hates learning then it doesn't matter how much he "knows" or what his scores are on the SAT or ACT. You know, I can think of A LOT of teens who have been schooled the "traditional" way that have not been able to get into college! :-) Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Actually, I am willing to bet that... AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 4:35 p.m. Response To: Ryan Author: Giovanna Date: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 3:13 p.m. > If a child hates learning then it doesn't matter how > much he "knows" or what his scores are on the > SAT or ACT. Actually, I am willing to bet that if a child hates learning THERE WON'T BE COLLEGE IN HIS FUTURE! He will avoid it like the plague! So it really doesn't boil down to how many facts he knows or doesn't know. What it really boils down to is if he has embraced the process of learning and if he finds delight in it. If an individual wants to go to college all he/she needs to do to get adequate scores on the SAT or ACT is buy one of those study guide/help books and study it. If the drive and ambition is there he/she will do it. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Help explain to dh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AUTHOR: sharon DATE: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 5:20 p.m. Response To: Re: Help explain to dh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Author: Ryan Date: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 12:39 p.m. We are by no means veterans at home education but, this is our second year- and since I am the person that deals directly with the children it seems that I have a better feel for how they are learning and responding to what we have made available to them... What it has taken is to get plugged into each child personally and listen to their hearts. Government schools (we've had over two decades of them in our home) do very well at using a cookie cutter method...here's the stuff, learn it the way we say or get left behind. This does not leave room for the bend or giftedness of a person. Our oldest daughter, now 27, is a genius according to IQ testing, she was bored in school and shuffled about. It was during her senior year - second semester - a person calling herself a counselor advised her to drop out. Right now she is enjoying the learning process and making use of all of her interests as an adult, seeing that her siblings, by far, have the advantage she never did. Both parents really do need to be involved closely with their children and do a lot of reading and careful study to see how each of their children enjoy learning. The ladies are correct, they can be force feed, but in the long run it really does not give them the benifits as self directed learning. The person working closely with the child will readily see what will and will not work for each one, if they "hear" the heartbeat of that child. Last year (our first at home) was only school that was duplicated & brought home, and overall, was not a successful time. Since my husband did not have hands on with the children (6 remaining at home)as I did - I was beginning to see what was and what was not working - and knew there had to be a way to unlock their hearts and minds. I believe deschooling to be what we have needed, and only today saw our 8 yr old son pick up some papers to read voluntarily. Now that may not seem like a feat to some of you, but to this child that has FOUGHT reading since his encounter in Kindergarten at age 5, it was enough to want to celebrate for his father and I. What I really do suggest is that both parents zero in on the children, not curriculum, not methods, not the best laid plans of an educational system...but each child. They are each a wonder, have remarkable interests and abilities, and will, without fail, pleasently surprise us adults. This thread on deschooling has a wealth of information, and it would be time well spent to go through each post and get a better understanding of what is being discussed here. Sharon > Is it truly necessary to deschool him? Maybe the way > he sees it, your kid isn't learning a whole lot... If you > only focus on what interests the student, then when the > time comes for the ACT or SAT, there's definitely gonna > be some areas that are lacking. If your child can't get > into college, would you not agree that you've done him a > great disservice by not sending him to school? Maybe your > dh has the right idea after all... ======================================== MESSAGE: You are a partner in learning...you don't need to know all the answers! Read on for some suggestions. AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 6:26 p.m. Response To: I appreciate and love your posts! Thanks so much. I've decided . . . Author: Vanessa Date: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 10:27 a.m. > We're getting ready to go camping next week, and I > thought how fun it will be just to explore nature, then > I wondered what I'd do when my kids start asking questions > that I can't answer, THEN I remembered I'm not supposed > to be the one to provide all the answers - let them do it > on their own. How will they do that? You can encourage their inquisitiveness by being inquisitive yourself. "Hmmm.....Honey, I don't really know that answer to that. I'd like to know that myself. I tell you what, let's write this question down so we won't forget it and when we get home we will go to the library and find out." All the time act very curious (because you are TRULY curious) and continue the conversation off and on. Wonder about the answers. Come up with possible answers, encourage the conversation. When you get home go to the library and find out together! > How do I keep them from "playing" all day? Nothing wrong with playing. Lots can be learned through play. Do you know how much spelling is learned by playing SCRABBLE??? > We have a TV, but we don't watch "television". > We do watch videos selected from the library, and we are > choosey about which ones we watch. That's fine. I know a lot of interests around here have been spurred on by a good tv show or video. There are some families out there that do need to turn the tv off because they have become enslaved to it and the only way out is by doing something radical. I support turning off the TV completely under these circumstances. I've had to turn it off here at home on more than a few occasions. ;-) > It seems now, when we > are not working on "school" or running errands > they are filling their time with play - Barbies, Legos, > house, etc. or videos (they do like to read too, but play > usually dominates their time). These are not bad things, > but how do I get them to turn to interesting, educational > things? How do I help them get their minds going? How do > I help them NOT idle their time away? This is a process! This is not going to happen overnight. You cannot wake up one morning and declare that this will be the day when the kids will turn their Barbies in for the latest PBS documentary. :-) How do you get their minds going? You need to create an "atmosphere" at home and you start creating that atmosphere by looking at what you do during your free time. Let me quote here from "Wisdom's Way of Learning" (my favorite book) p.121-- "You might want to spend time reflecting on the activities of your lifestyle--the things you do and the things your children do in their spare time. To shape a lifestyle that will open the door to daily quality learning opportunities will require making some changes. Change must begin with helping your children learn how to make wise choices about how they spend their time. Help them to evaluate the quality of their free time activities and lead them to choose between valuable and vain activities. Continue to help them upgrade their choices. The degree to which they choose wisely will determine the degree to which you are able to wean from general educational plans and studies. IN TIME (emphasis mine) it will no longer be necessary for the parent to conceive, design and execute the studen't education beasue the student, from a young age, will have learned how to do this very thing simply through the continuing habit of learning how to choose activities wisely. To help you get started, you may want to moderate some of your children's activities so that you can begin to encrougae them into more valuable pursuits. You may want to begin weaning your children from other activities altogether. Making the changes necessary to move into a purposeful living and learning lifstyle will be worth the effort..." ............ Notice the word "weaning". This means a gradual, slow process. It does not mean that you wake up on Monday morning and decide to lay down the law. Remember, homeschooling is about nurturing the relationship with your children above all! > If I am to let them take the lead, how do I stay involved? You become their partner! As their partner you ARE very much involved. The difference here is that you are sharing the knowledge you know but you've taken yourself away from this role where you are THE KNOW-IT-ALL, ALL MIGHTY-TEACHER. Let your children teach YOU things! ;-) Understand? > Do I wait for them to begin the process, or do I drop things > here and there (aside from filling our house with games, > magazines, projects, etc.) - you know, get things going? You have already started the process! You have decided/realized that there is more abundance to homeschool than what you've been experiencing so far and now you're seeking for new alternatives. Start slow. Make some changes here and there. Read aloud more, make your home an interesting place, talk about current events, talk about everything. Pretty soon you are going to see your children delight in something in particular. Once you see that, encourage it. You are on your way. The main way our children get hooked on a topic in our home is through family read aloud time. My son's interest in Ancient Egypt began because we were reading "A Child's History of the World." As we read about about mummies he began to wonder and ask and as we read a little more he got hooked! That's all it took! Our next library visit had us taking books home about mummies and the rest is history. I kept an eye out for good Egypt websites, Egypt documentaries on TV, Egypt books and we even made a model of an Egyptian mummy. Sort of like a unit study. Well, it is a unit study! But the big difference is that it was child-directed, not teacher contrived. Vanessa, I'd love to give you a formula to follow but there just isn't one. Every home, every family, every child is different. Listen to you heart! Listen to your children! You'll figure this out! You'll see!! Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: You have been terrific - what wonderful information and encouragement! AUTHOR: Vanessa DATE: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 7:43 p.m. Response To: Unschooling vs. reading, 'riting, and 'rithmetic . . . Author: Vanessa Date: Thursday, 24 September 1998, at 8:16 p.m. Thank you! I think I am ready to begin, and, since we are going camping this coming week, we will HAVE to relax; what a perfect place to begin. I also got my copy of The Unschooling Handbook today (yea!) that I will be taking along. I have already felt a boost in confidence as I have considered all that you have said and all that I know is in my heart. I needed that. :o) By the way, tonight my daughter brought me one of her small stuffed animals to wash as I was loading up the washer. She became very interested in what would happen to it, so I let her watch the washer fill with water and begin it's churning. She watched as her animal went under and emerged just a few seconds later. After a bit of this I thought she'd be finished, but she was so interested! My first reaction was to have her come out of the laundry room, so I could get back to what I had been doing, but she didn't want to leave. She was thrilled when it went into the spin and rinse cycle and soon she was calling her brother and sisters to see what was happening. I had explained carefully to her, when I had first realized she wanted to stay and watch, the dangers of the washing machine which she seemed to respect, but when her brother and sisters were present, and I stepped out of the room for a moment, their father stepped in and realized ds did not understand the safety concerns, so he made them all leave. They were devastated! To her it had been a wonderful thing, and I wondered . . . could it really be this simple? :O) Thanks again! ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Help explain to dh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AUTHOR: Tomas DATE: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 10:05 p.m. Response To: Help explain to dh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Author: Marla Date: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 5:31 p.m. It's been over12 years since we started flirting with this de-shcooling concept. We released our daughter from a parochial school in the middle of second grade. We knew that it would take some time to let her relax or de-tox from her time at school. We didn't push any subjects on her at first. But after awhile we felt like we were just marking time and like many beginners we were afraid she would fall behind her peers. At the time I was working mainly at home and I would frequently find myself involved with getting our daughter to mind her mother and do her work. Many nights we would think that there was not any point in removing her from school if we were only going to enforce the same ethos that made her so miserable to begin with. It is hard for me to remember exactly how we made the transition but I can give you a brief idea of how we "structured" our homeschool which may give your husband more confidence in this new appproach. I guess this should mainly be addressed to him but since you are the one who will be doing the guiding during "business" hours I think you will find this helpful also. You have stated that Brandon is enthusiastic about English and Math but that doesn't mean the other subjects are beyond his interest. I think you can find many ways to incorporate history and science along with his interests. For example, you can find books at the library which are about the history of math for starters. This will draw in the sciences, add to his knowledge of history and since he needs language to do this research he will fulfill some of his English requirements by reading books by literate authors. In our homeschool we find that WHATEVER a child's interest is, it will lead to the other disciplines of learning. This is the failure of public schools by neglecting to realize the "inter-connectedness" of all subjects. This neglect is part of what makes school so distasteful. Next I would like to tell you and your husband that you have all the time in the world. Once you get the unschooling rhythm flowing you will find "school" is occurring all the time. If Brandon is asleep when the school bus goes by because he stayed up late reading the night before, he still has accomplished something toward his over-all education. Our oldest, the one we sprung 12 or so years ago, took off a year between "high school" and college. No pressure is good and besides we shouldn't be trying to win a race for knowledge because the finish line is really never in sight. And as a side bar to this response I want to add that if you have trust in your children and show it you will be repaid beyond your expectations. Children aspire to make their parents proud and they are always looking for an opportunity to demonstrate how well they can. If you can let Brandon lead while you and your husband "facilitate" you will find he knows what he needs. By doing this you will be developing self discipline in him as well as the desire to learn. Not just learn enough to do well on the SAT, or get into college, or get that great paying job but to learn to become a "well rounded" better suited to discovering the answers which will be needed for the next generation. Sorry to get carried away; but homeschoolers have the finest opportunity to make learning a constant state of mind. A passion for a lifetime. > Now that I've figured out the difference between unschooling, > ecletics, and school-at-home how do I explain this to my > dh? At the dinner table tonight he found out that Brandon > had no "school" today!! Then I told him that we > are going to be schooling a little differently(ecletic). > I did'nt give him the style name but ds explained just english, > and math and I like it. Ooooops! His response was less than > enthusiastic or encouraging. I need to deschool him!;o} > We don't see eye to eye on many, many things. Such as morals > (his are a little looser than mine), spirituality (relationship > with Christ) and some others that are minor compared to > these. Don't get me wrong he is a good man and believes > in God and salvation but......anyway thats another area > completly. I feel I understand how and why I'm doing the > things I'm doing but how do explain that we arn't having > science, history, and all the rest. What I said was we are > basing it on what interest ds and through all this we will > get in all these things in. Plus no computer games, Nintendo, > or tv until late in the afternoon. Any suggestions appreciated. > Until then in prayer for His blessings. In Christ Marla > ======================================== MESSAGE: Learning to Read AUTHOR: Sheila DATE: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 10:13 p.m. Hello everyone. I'm so happy I found this discussion. I have a question. My oldest is 8(last month) and isn't reading yet. We have always unschooled, having been blessed to have come across the Moores, Mary Hood & Wisdom's Way of Learning years ago. My son has now expressed a desire to learn to read and we have started "Learn to Read in 100 easy lessons." It was a rocky start, but he seems to do much better with it. The problem is about every other lesson is met with hesitation, and eventually, frustration. He's a perfectionist and gets very upset when he doesn't "get it" right away. I've sometimes skipped days between lessons, and that seems to help. But after a lesson or two, he resists again. I don't want him to hate reading. I'm thinking about letting go until he asks to start again, and just read lots to him. Does that sound like a plan? Any other suggestions? BTW, I believe that his main motivation for wanting to read is that he is embarrassed that other kids his age or younger can read. He is also unwilling to go to Bible classes or anything age segregated where someone may ask him to read. Any thoughts on this? Let me add, that I am a reading, library, book fanatic and we have a very reading rich home. But this is my action-speaks-louder-than- words kid who thrives with hands on stuff. Should I just relax about this and let it happen when it happens? Thanks. Sorry I was so long Sheila ======================================== MESSAGE: My bubble has been burst ..... AUTHOR: leslie DATE: Sunday, 27 September 1998, at 5:05 a.m. This is more unschooling than deschooling. I finally decided to give in to my fears and try this. We are required in 4th grade to do state history. Well, I figure that how much you know about your state will not make much difference in your life, so I thought this would be a good subject to experiment with. I was explaining to ds that I was not going to provide a lesson plan for this, and he could pick and choose what he wanted to learn. If he didn't choose more than the war battles fought here, I would add a few more things. We would learn it together, because I didn't grow up here, and I know very little about the state. His response was, "If you leave the choice to me, I choose nothing". Now what do I do? I can't understand why somebody who has the chance to input their interests into their learning would not bother. I'm at a total loss as to what to do with him. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: My bubble has been burst ..... AUTHOR: Sharon DATE: Sunday, 27 September 1998, at 6:03 a.m. Response To: My bubble has been burst ..... Author: leslie Date: Sunday, 27 September 1998, at 5:05 a.m. I have a 4th grade son, too and I know his response would be the same. I have several tricks to get him to focus on certain areas that he doesn't think he is interested in. First tell him that you plan to learn more about your state anyway. This may draw him in right away if he hates to be left out of your life. Put him in charge of field trip planning. Tell him that the field trips must include your interests as well as his in a balanced mixture. Read about your state and share interesting tidbits with him. Discuss local and state current events with him or when he is present. Ask for his opinions on politics and other situations. Get involved with a local or state action group with a cause that may interest him. Even if he never seems to develop an enthusiastic attitude about learning about your state, he will probably learn more about the subject through your sharing of your interest than he would from a textbook on the subject. ======================================== MESSAGE: Rx for burst bubbles... AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Sunday, 27 September 1998, at 9:03 a.m. Response To: My bubble has been burst ..... Author: leslie Date: Sunday, 27 September 1998, at 5:05 a.m. Hi, Leslie-- > I finally decided to give in to my fears and try this. Nooooooo! You OVERCAME your fears! I'm not correcting your syntax -- I'm pointing out a glitch in your self-perception. Had you given in to your fears, you wouldn't have tried anything new at all! > We are required > in 4th grade to do state history. Well, I figure that how > much you know about your state will not make much difference > in your life, so I thought this would be a good subject > to experiment with. I'd guess this is what most of us do in the beginning. We try to "unschool" the subjects that we deem least important. But this is probably going at it backwards, because the key ingredient in unschooling is INTEREST. If you perceive state history as unimportant, how will you generate enthusiasm for the subject in your son? > I was explaining to ds that I was not > going to provide a lesson plan for this, and he could pick > and choose what he wanted to learn. If he didn't choose > more than the war battles fought here, I would add a few > more things. We would learn it together, because I didn't > grow up here, and I know very little about the state. This is great, actually! Learning about something together is one of the keys to success, in my opinion. This is not to say that kids can't do a good job of learning something on their own, without Mom's contributions, but a "cooperative learning environment" often builds excitement and reinforces the thrill of discovery. > His > response was, "If you leave the choice to me, I choose > nothing". Now what do I do? I can't understand why > somebody who has the chance to input their interests into > their learning would not bother. Well, this is exactly WHY we advocate deschooling. The apathy your son has just displayed is a symptom of too much schooling! Reading between the lines, here, I'm guessing that he equates learning any kind of history with dreary work and boredom. Also, you've put him in a bit of a bind. On the one hand, you're saying, "OK, you're free to let your interest be your guide." On the other hand, you're saying, "But you MUST be interested." That's not really giving him much freedom at all! His response was probably his way of testing you to see if you really intend to let him take the lead. Also, this is not a process that happens overnight, as many others have pointed out on this board. You can't wave a wand over your son and expect him to suddenly be racing to the library to check out books on war battles. When we hand freedom to kids who aren't used to it, they aren't sure what to do with it at first. They haven't exercised that "muscle" since they were preschoolers. What do you do now? Well, YOU can still learn something about your state's history, and sooner or later, you'll run across something that you suspect will interest your son. You probably know him pretty well, and you know what rings his chimes. You'll then share that piece of information, informally. This may lead to further discussion. Give it time. He can learn more state history in a couple of weeks, if he's interested, that the school kids will learn in an entire year of textbook stuff, and that's a promise! Plus, he'll REMEMBER it forever. The other kids will remember it only long enough to pass a test. One other suggestion: There are many different pathways into a given subject. Does your son love reptiles? Use that as an entry into state history. You can begin learning about the snakes and lizards, etc., in your region, and perhaps find some Native American legends about them. From there, you might springboard into conflicts between Native Americans and European settlers (I don't know where you live, so I'm just guessing in the dark, here). Before you know it, you'll be deeply immersed in the history of your state...and you'll barely remember that you started out with rattlesnakes! Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Learning to Read AUTHOR: Marsha in MI DATE: Sunday, 27 September 1998, at 11:25 a.m. Response To: Learning to Read Author: Sheila Date: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 10:13 p.m. Hi, our third son, too, has been exposed to interest-oriented learning from the time he was 3 (the year we started home education with his two older brothers). He didn't learn to read until just before his 9th birthday, and I know others whose children were even older. We tried "Teach Your Child to Read in 100 EAsy Lessons" but he, too, became frustrated very quickly with 1). boring 2). repetition 3.) dumb stories. So we quit and never used it with him again. (Although my daughter loved it and learned to read quite well using it). eventually, frustration. Yes! Forgetting the reading text and just reading to him IS a plan! It's what we ended up doing with our son. We did have some phonics tapes and little read-along books, and he liked to listen to story audio tapes, plus he picked out piles of books from the library, and I kept a running list of interests he mentioned so when we went I would choose books (space ships, planets, aircraft). I read out loud to him until I was falling asleep many a time! :-) I can identify with your son! He sounds so much like my perfectionist, hands-on, busy, talkative son - who is now 11 1/2 and reading anything he gets his hands on. Just passed a hunter safety class with the highest score in the class (and there were several adults), and can build the most unique working Lego Technic models you've ever seen. Good luck. Keep on keeping on and keep on reading. Marsha ======================================== MESSAGE: It's just that you can't "unschool" something your child isn't interested in. AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Sunday, 27 September 1998, at 1:38 p.m. Response To: My bubble has been burst ..... Author: leslie Date: Sunday, 27 September 1998, at 5:05 a.m. > This is more unschooling than deschooling. I finally > decided to give in to my fears and try this. We are required > in 4th grade to do state history. Well, I figure that how > much you know about your state will not make much difference > in your life, so I thought this would be a good subject > to experiment with. The statement above shows that even though you want to try something new you are still tied down to the "system." Why must you do state history now? Because it's required for fourth grade? According to who? > I was explaining to ds that I was not > going to provide a lesson plan for this, and he could pick > and choose what he wanted to learn. If he didn't choose > more than the war battles fought here, I would add a few > more things. We would learn it together, because I didn't > grow up here, and I know very little about the state. I'm all for learning together. You've hit the mark there. But, here again you are not giving your child a "choice" even though you think you are. You are telling him what to learn even to the point of telling him that if he only chooses the war battles you will add more to it. This isn't really a choice and it is not "unschooling". In all honestly I am pretty sure your child doesn't even know where to start! He has probably never had the opportunity to do anything like this and he is probably overwhelmed and add the fact that he isn't even interested in state history to start with I can clearly see how he would respond in the way he did. This is going to be a hard task for someone who has probably never had the opportunity to pick out his own course of study. He doesn't know how to go about the process of learning unless someone is ready with a lesson plan and walks him through it. He has become very teacher dependent--the result of having his education completely set up for him. He doesn't know how to learn--at least not on his own. Before you can continue YOU and YOUR CHILD need to go through a deschooling process. Read this board to learn how. >His > response was, "If you leave the choice to me, I choose > nothing". I am not surprised! :-( This is an extremely typical response. This apathy is going on with almost all of the children/youth in this country. > Now what do I do? I can't understand why > somebody who has the chance to input their interests into > their learning would not bother. I'm at a total loss as > to what to do with him. Well, you've hit a brick wall but THIS IS GOOD! :-) Now you know where your child stands. DON'T DISMAY, DEAR FRIEND!!!! The reason your child does not show interest but rather apathy is because he doesn't see education as a lifestyle. He has separated it from life. Sort of the way we separate our job from what we would call our "real life." This is the basic, foundational problem of almost every single child that attends public/private school and sadly it is seen in homeschools as well. What are you going to do with him? Right now I suggest nothing. I recommend that YOU get educated on what true, natural education should be like. Read this board. Read some of the books that have been recommended here. You need to go through deschooling before any of your children can see education differently. That's the first step. I know, I know...you probably want some concrete answers as to what to do with this problem with state history. But it's no use fixing the house when the foundation is not set right. HANG IN THERE! We will be discussing this topic till Oct. 1. You are welcome to come back and ask any questions you want. However, if you spend time reading all of the posts on this board you will probably find the answers you are looking for. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Learning to Read AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Sunday, 27 September 1998, at 1:54 p.m. Response To: Learning to Read Author: Sheila Date: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 10:13 p.m. Hi, Sheila-- I've never used (or even examined) 100 Easy Lessons, so I'm not sure how helpful I can be on that score. But I DO know something about perfectionism and frustration. In our family, it's usually math that brings that out in the children -- that is, the frustration over not understanding a new concept right off the bat. I think there has to be enough desire on the kid's part to keep them muddling through those frustrating moments, or else they're liable to give up in disgust. It's like learning a new piano piece. My daughter is always twice as willing to work hard on a new piece if it's a piece she loves and is eager to learn to play. If it's a piece she doesn't like that much, she's not nearly as patient with the frustrating business of learning all the notes and fingerings. It sounds as if your son's motivation for wanting to learn to read is rooted in shame. He's embarrassed about not reading when other kids his age can. That COULD be a strong enough motivation, but it might not be a particularly healthy one, and besides, he's already figured out another way around it -- skipping group activities that call for reading! So...if I were in your shoes, I think I'd try to keep my eyes open for other ways of bringing him around to wanting to learn to read. You mentioned he's a hands-on kind of a guy -- what does he like to do? If it's electronics (I'm just using an example, here), he'd probably like to be able to read wiring instructions, or directions for building circuitry. What's really ideal is if his interest lies in something far afield from your own, because then he can't rely on you to help him with it -- he'll HAVE to get the information he wants from books! There have been many late readers who finally "gave up and learned to read" for just this reason. Meanwhile, by all means, do keep reading aloud to him. And if YOU'RE familiar with the next lesson in "100 Easy Lessons" (or whatever program you're using), there's no reason you can't deliver the same information to him informally, so that he doesn't feel he's in a pressure situation. In other words, if the next lesson is about consonant blends, you can just casually point out consonant blends on street signs (STOP, SLOW, CLEARANCE, CROSSING, etc.). The idea here is to weave reading tips into odd moments throughout the day, rather than squishing them all into a 30-minute session each morning. The advantage to teaching older children to read is that once they start getting the idea, they take off in a hurry! The DISadvantage is that they may have gotten the idea that reading is hard and that perhaps they aren't particularly good at it. That can have a poisonous effect on their progress, of course, and you'll want to do whatever possible to counteract those negative feelings. We live in a world of print. It's great that your house is full of books, but don't overlook everything else you can use to your purpose -- cereal boxes, shampoo bottles, store signs, bumper stickers, seed packets, etc. Has he noticed that all Ford trucks have F-O-R-D written in big letters on the tailgate? Do you sound out words together when you "bump into them" during the course of a normal day? The truth is, I never used a "reading program" to teach any of our kids to read. I just shared (informally) what I knew about phonics, read to them a lot(!), encouraged them to write, and kept it all happy and relaxed. They picked it up without a whole lot of effort (or distress) on anyone's part. We worked out deals -- I'd read a storybook aloud, and they'd read five words from that book after I was finished. (They picked the five words, of course.) Always, the emphasis should be on what they CAN do already. ("Isn't it wonderful? You read that word all by yourself! Wow, you can READ!") The learning-to-read process is usually slow in the beginning and then lightning-fast towards the end. Suddenly, they wake up REALLY reading! Let him know that this is how it works, and encourage him every step of the way. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Learning to Read AUTHOR: Leslie DATE: Sunday, 27 September 1998, at 2:00 p.m. Response To: Learning to Read Author: Sheila Date: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 10:13 p.m. I have a 7 1/2 y.o. who isn't reading either. We have experienced the same problems with 100 Easy Lessons. They are frustrating to him and he thinks they are boring. We quit using them and just spend a lot of time reading to him. He is also a perfectionist and wants to get it right the first time...I don't have any advice for you, but wanted to let you know there are others out there with similar questions.. Good Luck. Leslie > Hello everyone. I'm so happy I found this discussion. > I have a question. My oldest is 8(last month) and isn't > reading yet. We have always unschooled, having been blessed > to have come across the Moores, Mary Hood & Wisdom's > Way of Learning years ago. My son has now expressed a desire > to learn to read and we have started "Learn to Read > in 100 easy lessons." It was a rocky start, but he > seems to do much better with it. The problem is about every > other lesson is met with hesitation, and eventually, frustration. > He's a perfectionist and gets very upset when he doesn't > "get it" right away. I've sometimes skipped days > between lessons, and that seems to help. But after a lesson > or two, he resists again. I don't want him to hate reading. > I'm thinking about letting go until he asks to start again, > and just read lots to him. Does that sound like a plan? > Any other suggestions? BTW, I believe that his main motivation > for wanting to read is that he is embarrassed that other > kids his age or younger can read. He is also unwilling to > go to Bible classes or anything age segregated where someone > may ask him to read. Any thoughts on this? Let me add, that > I am a reading, library, book fanatic and we have a very > reading rich home. But this is my action-speaks-louder-than- > words kid who thrives with hands on stuff. Should I just > relax about this and let it happen when it happens? > Thanks. Sorry I was so long Sheila ======================================== MESSAGE: I remember this very well! AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Sunday, 27 September 1998, at 4:21 p.m. Response To: Learning to Read Author: Sheila Date: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 10:13 p.m. > Hello everyone. I'm so happy I found this discussion. > I have a question. My oldest is 8(last month) and isn't > reading yet. We have always unschooled, having been blessed > to have come across the Moores, Mary Hood & Wisdom's > Way of Learning years ago. My son has now expressed a desire > to learn to read and we have started "Learn to Read > in 100 easy lessons." It was a rocky start, but he > seems to do much better with it. The problem is about every > other lesson is met with hesitation, and eventually, frustration. We used "100 Easy Lessons" and we had this problem as well. Andrew learned to blend immediately and learning to decode went very smoothly. Then all of the sudden the stories in the book got longer and even though he could read them (he had the mechanics down) he resisted. I laid the book down for several months and then later picked it up again. OH WHAT A DIFFERENCE! He just needed some more time to mature. He just wasn't developmentally ready to read longer stories--that was all. How lesson are you at? We didn't finish the book. We didn't need to. By lesson 70 something we started using readers from our local library (those Step into Reading books), and those "Read and Find Out About Science" series. Hang in there. Pretty soon the motivation to read will come because he needs to read something that interests him! It will come! Some suggestions.... Have you ever read those three little books by Dr. Ruth Beechick? They are called THE 3 R's. They are sold together (very inexpensive) and practically almost every hsing catalog has them. Those little books are TERRIFIC! Get them! The reading booklet has tons of ideas and I think you will find it really helpful. Don't throw out "100 Easy Lessons". Wait. Put it down, in a couple of months he may be ready to continue. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: My bubble has been burst ..... AUTHOR: Sue DATE: Monday, 28 September 1998, at 3:02 a.m. Response To: My bubble has been burst ..... Author: leslie Date: Sunday, 27 September 1998, at 5:05 a.m. > This is more unschooling than deschooling. I finally > decided to give in to my fears and try this. We are required > in 4th grade to do state history. Well, I figure that how > much you know about your state will not make much difference > in your life, so I thought this would be a good subject > to experiment with. I was explaining to ds that I was not > going to provide a lesson plan for this, and he could pick > and choose what he wanted to learn. If he didn't choose > more than the war battles fought here, I would add a few > more things. We would learn it together, because I didn't > grow up here, and I know very little about the state. His > response was, "If you leave the choice to me, I choose > nothing". Now what do I do? I can't understand why > somebody who has the chance to input their interests into > their learning would not bother. I'm at a total loss as > to what to do with him. I posted about this a while back. I gave my children the lead after I decided to homeschool. They were so used to structure and being told what to do, they chose to do nothing, also. I don't think it was in defiance. It was more like they just didn't know WHAT to do without being told. So, I let them have time to learn how to choose what to do. First, I just let them laze around for several weeks. I did all the chores. They could watch TV all they wanted as long as it was approved shows and movies. TV had always been pretty regulated in our house, so they were almost like addicts for a while. But, after about a month, I saw them turning it off all by themselves. Then, instead of assigning chores, I started asking them to one at a time to help me with a chore and we used that time to talk and laugh, etc. My goal? I wanted the children to have a time to really and truly relax and heal from the rigidness of school. I let them sleep in as long as they liked. We had fewer respiratory sicknesses last winter and their skin cleared up. After a while, they started worrying themselves about their education and started asking for things to do. So, we started going to the library and by this time, I had researched a little more about curriculum and could try something else. I started with just trying to find math and language curriculums that matched with each child. It took a few false starts to find the right one. I blew off a rigid science or history curriculum and instead started wooing them into a love for those subjects. We went on field trips and watched PBS shows and did Backyard Scientist experiments. We made pioneer costumes and had school one day in a log cabin with the support group. That lead to reading Little House on the Praire series for the younger [and bits of discussion here and there] and The Leatherstocking Stories[?][The Last of the Mohicans, etc.] for the older[her choice - she found the book in the used bookstore and loves it. She recounts the story to us as she reads it. Now, I've been wooed to want to read a book I in which I hitherto had no interest.] I set them free in our back yard and made binoculars, a slide microscope, a 3d micro viewer and magnifying glasses available and occasionally sat outside with them in the mornings to watch the squirrels. My father in law is a great naturalist and quite well-known for that in his area. He came to visit and enthralled them with all sorts of tidbits about squirrel behaviour, etc. My husband is looked at bugs and plants with them and made up microscope slides, even for the littles. My mother-in-law came to visit and did crafts and science stuff with them, too. They have been our favorite resources. They just talk to the children about the things they know about. We frequented our nature stores. In our city we have stores in the mall that are chock full of educational stuff. One is call The Store of Knowledge. It is NOT a teacher supply. It has all kinds of science kits and books and nifty doodads. We can spend hours in there just looking. I've scrounged and shopped and found sets of encyclopedia designed for the younger set for cheap. One is made by Britannica and tells about the subjects in story form. I let them check out or buy just about any book they want[it must past a few standards]. We go to the used book store alot. We have a franchise here call Half-PRice books that is really good. I try to provide good art supplies[ meaning lots of tempera, markers, poster board, wierd scissors, etc. ] and I have a big box that just hold stuff like toilet paper rolls, clean styrofoam meat trays, egg cartons, bubble wrap, and those disposable food containers that are black on bottom and clear on top and seal pretty well [they make good bug cages, mini-hot houses and good seedling incubators.]I instigate a lot of unbook science, art, math and history exploration. And I encourage them to read by looking up stuff with them whenever they have a question. I also give them lots of time for contemplating and am often amazed at the stuff they come up with to play or interest themselves with. Usually, it's very inventive. We watch Wishbone and from there have checked out Shakespear movies from the library and talked about Don Quixote and other classics. The first step in guiding your child to a life-long love of learning, is to revive your own flame for it. You need to look around yourself. What are YOUR interests? Delve into them. Fulfill those longings in you that may have been discouraged many years ago and learn about something you thought you'd never be able. Then let your children watch and see what it's like to enjoy learning something new. If your state is requiring that your son know state history this year or else your right to homeschool will be threatened, I suggest you find out from them just exactly what he will be expected to know. Then, you dig into that and determine to learn only what he'll be tested on - no more, no less. HOWEVER, you might just keep your antennae up and IF something looks interesting, you MIGHT consider sidetracking a little and look into some little area of your state's history that interests you or your son. Even if he cares not a whit, you might find something even a little bit curious and you MIGHT like to know a little more about it. Visiting historical sites around your state might be fun and make it seem more real. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Does your DH like to read? Would he be interested in reading THE UNSCHOOLING HANDBOOK? AUTHOR: Sandi DATE: Monday, 28 September 1998, at 8:45 a.m. Response To: Does your DH like to read? Would he be interested in reading THE UNSCHOOLING HANDBOOK? Author: Giovanna Date: Friday, 25 September 1998, at 7:02 p.m. Last night I gave my dh a book to read and he took it with him on his overnight business trip today! It's John Taylor Gatto's DUMBING US DOWN. If any of you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. I can't wait to hear his reaction to it. Gatto was the 1991 New York State Teacher of the Year, and the book includes his acceptance speech. He tells the things school REALLY teach your kids. It's pretty frightening. He is VERY supportive of homeschooling. Sandi ======================================== MESSAGE: Wondering..... AUTHOR: Haley DATE: Monday, 28 September 1998, at 8:56 a.m. I have five children, all school age now (5-13). This is our 4th year homeschooling, and we have become more and more relaxed each year. We began with Calvert, altered it so much that I dropped it and just went to a reading/writing/math day. The kids didn't enjoy this as much. I know they like being homeschooled, but they are just *doing* what is required. No inspiration, but wonderful work. They are really good kids with great minds. I like the ideas I have read on this most helpful board. I just wonder, as so many others, what, if anything, my 13yo son will do to learn math. And....I am afraid I'll be drawn into five different pieces trying to help each child with their interest of the moment. Being somewhat of a "lazy" mom, I am a bit wary of this approach. Finally, I like the idea of the writing contests. Would somebody mind posting a link or a resource to find these contests. I know I have seen it before. Still pondering. ======================================== MESSAGE: Sue, this is wonderful! AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Monday, 28 September 1998, at 1:00 p.m. Response To: Re: My bubble has been burst ..... Author: Sue Date: Monday, 28 September 1998, at 3:02 a.m. You did a great job of SHOWING how it works, and DEMONSTRATING how to trust the kids. Thanks! We love our local Store of Knowledge, too. (Of course, we wait until they put everything on sale.) And we visit the science and history museum's gift shop on a regular basis, too. One way I justify spending precious dollars on educational stuff is by reminding myself of how much money we're saving by NOT buying expensive curriculum materials. When I do buy the occasional textbook (which is rare), I never spend more than .50 or $1.00 per book -- because I get them at used bookstores or garage sales. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: My bubble has been burst ..... AUTHOR: Marianne H. DATE: Monday, 28 September 1998, at 3:15 p.m. Response To: Re: My bubble has been burst ..... Author: Sue Date: Monday, 28 September 1998, at 3:02 a.m. Hi there! These are great suggestions. This is my 4th year to homeschool and I am growing very discouraged. We have been stuck in the public school mode. Our first year we did more learning together. Now I have one child in 10th grade, and the other two in grades 5th and 8th. My 10th grader is so afraid that if she doesn't have the texts to use everyday, she will not be able to earn her high school credits for graduation. She is also planning to go to college. How would deschooling profit a college bound student? Should I let her continue the strict textbook curriculum and try to start with my other two children? My other two children are so stressed out with their curriculum that we often agrue about their assignments. Today was one of those days. thanks for any input. I really need help with this. > ======================================== MESSAGE: On their own terms... AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Monday, 28 September 1998, at 3:31 p.m. Response To: Wondering..... Author: Haley Date: Monday, 28 September 1998, at 8:56 a.m. Hi, Haley-- I don't mean to interrupt your pondering, but I thought I'd pass along something kind of remarkable that happened this afternoon. We were on our way to the video store to rent Infinity (a Matthew Broderick film about the physicist, Richard Feynman, about whom we've been reading a lot this month), and my 13-year-old son piped up from the back set, "I love math." I thought I must have misunderstood him! "You love WHAT?" I asked. "Math," he repeated. "I love math. That is, I love it on my own terms, you know. I love trying to figure out an eighth of a 360-degree angle, for example. It's 45 degrees." Now I have no idea what put that into his head! There we were, just driving along and not talking about anything in particular, but lo and behold, he's picturing circles and angles and degrees... We haven't been doing much geometry together lately, although I did show him a book I was checking out at the library today called Journey Through Genius (about important math theorems throughout history). I got it for me, though -- not for him -- and he really didn't show much interest in it when I showed it to him. I did think it was interesting that he mentioned "on my own terms." It suggests to me that he might NOT like it if it weren't on his own terms. OK, you can go back to pondering now! :-D Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Deschooling is IDEAL for college-bound kids AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Monday, 28 September 1998, at 3:54 p.m. Response To: Re: My bubble has been burst ..... Author: Marianne H. Date: Monday, 28 September 1998, at 3:15 p.m. Marianne-- If you've already read all the other posts on this board, you probably know that my unschooled daughter applied to 3 highly selective colleges and was accepted (and offered big scholarships) by all 3. She was able to go to her first-choice school, is now in her 2nd year there, and is doing extremely well. But I'd like to tell you about another homeschooled child I know who started college this fall. (He is on a full 4-year scholarship.) Unlike my daughter, who is into literature and writing, this young man's first loves are science and math. He asked me to be his writing coach during his last year at home, so I got a close-up view of how he conducted his education. Each year, he wrote out the academic goals he wanted to achieve. He chose his own books (few of which were actual textbooks) and made his own assignments. Month by month, he drafted his own curriculum. For some subjects, he engaged personal coaches or mentors (as I mentioned, I was his writing coach last year), but for the most part, he learned on his own -- mostly from library books. Last year, he also took 2 semesters of physics at the local junior college. This extraordinary, self-taught teen scored so high on the PSAT that he was named a National Merit Finalist. He would sometimes call me up to tell me about a book he was reading (with a great deal of excitement in his voice!), and the e-mails he sends from college are delightful. He's having a wonderful time, and he recently told me that he thinks he picked the best college for what he wants to do with his life. He is one of 6 children in a large homeschooling family. His 3 older brothers and sisters have also gone to college, and 2 have already graduated. I think he is a SHINING example of how powerful children can be when they are allowed to shape their own education. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: A Question for Cerelle AUTHOR: Amy H. DATE: Monday, 28 September 1998, at 6:50 p.m. Cerelle, I have been reading the posts on this board as you suggested. I have a question for you. Do you think deschooling is one of many approaches to homeschooling or are you convinced in your heart of hearts that it is the best way to homeschool? I love the idea, but I would panic without a curriculum. What I try to do is limit the academic/curricula stuff to the morning and then allow my children to lead me the rest of the day. I have noticed that many times my 7-year-old son will whine about doing handwriting, but later in the day will be crafting a story on his own as if it were the most wonderful experience in the world. He wants to be a moviemaker and has spent hours drawing, creating and producing movies. My father gave him a video camera and within a week he had produced an hour long movie with a script he created himself. Does this sound like a good approach (academics in the morning, deschool the rest of the day) or am I just being a slave to fear? Both of my children are very inquisitive and learn so much on their own. It's just that I really want to make sure I cover the bases, esp. since they have to be tested each year. Would appreciate your advice! ======================================== MESSAGE: An answer for Amy AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Monday, 28 September 1998, at 10:58 p.m. Response To: A Question for Cerelle Author: Amy H. Date: Monday, 28 September 1998, at 6:50 p.m. Amy, Here it is, nearly the end of the month -- I was hoping the really hard questions were out of the way! :-D You asked: > Do you think deschooling > is one of many approaches to homeschooling or are you convinced > in your heart of hearts that it is the best way to homeschool? I honestly don't think there's one BEST way to homeschool. For one thing, that would go completely against my belief system. As we say here in Texas (maybe people say it other places, too), there's always more than one way to skin a cat. Moreover, the problem with touting deschooling or unschooling or relaxed homeschooling (or whatever) as The One and Only Way is this: In spite of all our attempts to agree on a proper definition for any of these terms, the reality will be a little bit different in every family. In fact, it will be different for every CHILD in every family. Some families are going to have a wonderful time homeschooling, no matter what method or philosophy they use. It sounds to me as if things are going GREAT at your house -- so why worry about changing something that's obviously working well for you and your kids? As long as everyone's happy and learning and enjoying the process, you're doing everything right. I wouldn't change a thing. Some kids don't MIND working out of workbooks. (I have one these, myself.) They can sit there for three hours, happily doing bookwork, and still feel like doing something creative all afternoon. Other children think they're being punished if they have to sit still for 5 minutes. (I have one of these, too!) In my heart of hearts (since you asked), I believe that I'm very glad I was able to let go of MY school mindset. I think my oldest child would have been terribly unhappy if I hadn't. My youngest probably would have been, too. The oldest never took anything on faith -- she questioned everything. This, in fact, turned out to be an asset, but only after her environment had been sufficiently modified. Until then, *I* was the one being continually questioned, because I was the one who was always trying to get her to think like everyone else. (Big mistake.) My youngest "learns on the hoof," so to speak. He has to be doing something all the time. (I read aloud to him while he washes dishes or cleans his room or flies paper airplanes across the living room!) > I love the idea, but I would panic without a curriculum. > What I try to do is limit the academic/curricula stuff to > the morning and then allow my children to lead me the rest > of the day. This is exactly what we did the first few years. I started out pretty structured, believe it or not. I didn't use a packaged curriculum, I took things one day at a time, and I always catered to their interests, BUT -- we still "had school" most mornings. It worked. It just didn't work perfectly. That is, mornings sometimes didn't go so well. (Understatement of the century.) >I have noticed that many times my 7-year-old > son will whine about doing handwriting, but later in the > day will be crafting a story on his own as if it were the > most wonderful experience in the world. Sounds familiar. I guess at some point I stopped and asked myself, "Why am I pushing the handwriting routine? What will be more important in 10 years...having had perfect handwriting at age 7, or having had happy mornings (as well as afternoons) at age 7?" (BTW, handwriting improves with age, no matter what you do.) > He wants to be a > moviemaker and has spent hours drawing, creating and producing > movies. My father gave him a video camera and within a week > he had produced an hour long movie with a script he created > himself. COOL! What a creative, self-starting little guy you have, there! He'll go far with that kind of initiative. Obviously, he's very willing to work hard on the things he loves doing. > Does this sound like a good approach (academics > in the morning, deschool the rest of the day) or am I just > being a slave to fear? Oh, you're not a slave to fear. You just want to do it RIGHT. You want to make sure your kids are getting a topnotch education and learning everything they need to know. The only difference between you and me is that somewhere along the road I began to believe that the organized, sit-down schoolwork was getting in our way. (Warning: This could happen to you someday, too.) My kids still laugh about the bad old days. "Oooo," they say, "remember when we were on a SCHEDULE? Remember when Mama would be droning on about something or other, and we'd be tapping out secret codes to each other under the table?" (I never knew...) > Both of my children are very inquisitive > and learn so much on their own. It's just that I really > want to make sure I cover the bases, esp. since they have > to be tested each year. Would appreciate your advice! I think you gotta do what you gotta do. If following the curriculum in the morning keeps the panic attacks at bay, and if no one's suffering terribly in the process, where's the problem? My goal is not to get people to change what they're already doing. I'm just interested in letting people know that viable alternatives do exist and in encouraging those who really feel they need to try something different. It's not a matter of "You should..." My message is "You can..." If someone said to me, "Listen, I've been deschooling for 4 years, and it's just not working. The kids are bored out of their minds, and they don't know ANYTHING," I would definitely encourage them to try something different! (Chances are good, their definition of deschooling might not match up with mine, but that's another post.) I hope this sort of answers your question, Amy. Keep on keeping on! Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Thanks for all the input AUTHOR: leslie DATE: Tuesday, 29 September 1998, at 5:00 a.m. Response To: My bubble has been burst ..... Author: leslie Date: Sunday, 27 September 1998, at 5:05 a.m. As usual, you guys have given me more to think on. Yes, he spent 3 years in ps, this is our 2nd year at home. I am trying to get him involved in his schooling-I know that he is very dependent on having somebody tell him what to do, and when. There has been *some* improvement so far, but obviously I'm not jumping for joy at this stage. I will continue to keep at it. The state history requirement is one of the state laws on hsing. There is no test over it, we just have to do it. Cerelle- >Nooooooo! You OVERCAME your fears! I'm not correcting your syntax -- >I'm pointing out a glitch in your self-perception. Had you given in >to your fears, you wouldn't have tried anything new at all! Sorry about that, 6 am is too early to be trying to make myself understood:) BTW-I love history. I recognize that my love for history can be a hindrence at times, but everybody in family lets me know when I'm getting too involved! ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Deschooling is IDEAL for college-bound kids AUTHOR: Sue DATE: Tuesday, 29 September 1998, at 6:05 a.m. Response To: Deschooling is IDEAL for college-bound kids Author: Cerelle Date: Monday, 28 September 1998, at 3:54 p.m. > Marianne-- > If you've already read all the other posts on this > board, you probably know that my unschooled daughter applied > to 3 highly selective colleges and was accepted (and offered > big scholarships) by all 3. She was able to go to her first-choice > school, is now in her 2nd year there, and is doing extremely > well. > But I'd like to tell you about another homeschooled > child I know who started college this fall. (He is on a > full 4-year scholarship.) Unlike my daughter, who is into > literature and writing, this young man's first loves are > science and math. He asked me to be his writing coach during > his last year at home, so I got a close-up view of how he > conducted his education. Each year, he wrote out the academic > goals he wanted to achieve. He chose his own books (few > of which were actual textbooks) and made his own assignments. > Month by month, he drafted his own curriculum. For some > subjects, he engaged personal coaches or mentors (as I mentioned, > I was his writing coach last year), but for the most part, > he learned on his own -- mostly from library books. Last > year, he also took 2 semesters of physics at the local junior > college. > This extraordinary, self-taught teen scored so high > on the PSAT that he was named a National Merit Finalist. > He would sometimes call me up to tell me about a book he > was reading (with a great deal of excitement in his voice!), > and the e-mails he sends from college are delightful. He's > having a wonderful time, and he recently told me that he > thinks he picked the best college for what he wants to do > with his life. > He is one of 6 children in a large homeschooling family. > His 3 older brothers and sisters have also gone to college, > and 2 have already graduated. I think he is a SHINING example > of how powerful children can be when they are allowed to > shape their own education. > Cerelle I wish I had known more about unschooling years ago. I wish my daughter had had the opportunity the young man you describe and your children had. When we moved and decided to homeschool last year, my daughter had just finished 10th grade in public school. We tried a sort of relaxed schooling method through the Moore Foundation. The teacher there encouraged my daughter to write her own science course and said the school would evaluate it and give her credit for it on her high school transcript. She gave her assignments for the other courses based on what my daughter told her she was interested in and her desire to go to college. This might be a good help for the previous poster. However, I think we had too many adjustments to make at the time and we'd been schooled to long. My daughter didn't really know what to do with that freedom. It caused more stress than anything else. She told me she was frustrated and just wanted to get on through high school and into college. So she enrolled in American School. It is structured and probably unloved by die-hard unschoolers. But, for her it seems to be the best solution. She works completely on her own. She pays the bills, sends in the tests and studies when she wants to. SHe's completely on her own. SHe also made the arrangements herself to take the SAT and CLEP tests. She has applied to colleges and is planning to take her first two years by extension. She's really on her own as far as her education. I just help when she asks for it. She likes AMerican School because it is challenging, yet she is able to go fast because she can concentrate on just one or two courses at a time. She will finish in a few months and she will have gone through her last two years of high school in less than a year. We had to start with where we were. We couldn't go back and start at the beginning. I am unschooling my younger children, though. And I need to learn as much as I can as soon as I can just to keep up with them. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: The facts about college and interest-led homeschooling AUTHOR: Sue DATE: Tuesday, 29 September 1998, at 6:25 a.m. Response To: The facts about college and interest-led homeschooling Author: Cerelle Date: Saturday, 26 September 1998, at 1:45 p.m. > Ryan wrote: > This may sound like a logical assumption, but in fact, > it's not an accurate statement. Children who have followed > their own interests usually do very well on college entrance > exams. (My daughter was one.) The SAT is designed to measure > math and verbal skills...and the ability to apply those > skills in new contexts. These skills are normally well-developed > in students who have been allowed to explore freely and > encouraged to delve deeply into the subjects that interest > them. > But deschooled children DO get into the best colleges. > See Karl M. Bunday's "Colleges That Admit Homeschoolers > FAQ" -- > http://learninfreedom.org/colleges_4_hmsc.html > Deschoolers/unschoolers take education very seriously > -- they just follow an untraditional path. Deschooling is > NOT the same thing as settling for a spotty education. A > careful reading of the other posts here should make that > clear. > Cerelle I want to know more about preparing deschoolers/unschoolers for college. I am new and have three bright children. How do I ensure I am not giving them a ``spotty education?'' What did you do to have such success with your children? Here's why I ask. I was giving my oldest daughter piano lessons until I started having more babies. She was left on her own. She eventuall taught herself to play the pieces she heard me playing, but she didn't read music well and obviously lacked in training, although musically, she sounded beautiful. The same is happening with my other children. I am so swamped or either to ``relaxed'' that I just never get around to teaching them piano. They ask for it, but I just can't seem to do it. We can't afford a teacher. WIth my 8 year old. She wanted to learn to read the year before last. I had 4 kids, one in high school extracurricular madness, I worked afternoons and evenings and had 4 children and we moved twice. I was not consistent, but I did show her a few things. She did not learn to read on her own. When things finally settled and I started working with her daily, she progressed and is learning to read. It still takes me daily working with her. I see how my children depend upon me to teach them some things and that it definitely makes it easier for them in some areas when I teach or work with them. I tend to be very busy with my free-lance work and I am also needed in my husband's job and often must work with him. I worry and am concerned and wish I could do more, but often don't. Please condense for me what you did you help your child have success. Where did you do nothing? When did you step in? Surely your child did not self-educate herself her whole life? Did you set goals in the beginning when she was young or did you just let things happen? How did you know what goals to set? What were they at what stages? If Im' not going to conform to the govn't's standards or World Book's suggestions, what should I go by? Should I guide my child at all? Please, I'm not trying to poke or pry or criticize. I'm desperately trying to find out how to do this. So far, things are pretty good. But, I'm afraid of drifting. ======================================== MESSAGE: Penmanship & Spelling AUTHOR: Jayjay DATE: Tuesday, 29 September 1998, at 8:01 a.m. I have an almost 14 yr. old son that hates to write. His Spelling and penmanship is terrible. Even dh is disappointed that it is so bad. I just feel that I should give him words to practice spelling and writing or nothing will improve. I like the idea of unschooling but it seems to me there are just some things you cannot get away without doing; spelling, writing, and math. What are your thoughts on this? How can it improve without "making" him do what he hates? Thanks. ======================================== MESSAGE: A Mammoth Thank You to Cerelle! AUTHOR: Amy H. DATE: Tuesday, 29 September 1998, at 8:28 a.m. Response To: An answer for Amy Author: Cerelle Date: Monday, 28 September 1998, at 10:58 p.m. Cerelle, What a thoughtful and encouraging response! Thank you very much. I found your message in the middle of our "school" time and what a wonderful encouragement it was. I told my husband last night as I was reading the posts on this board that my gut instinct is that deschooling is the way to go, even if my personality type rebels against the thought! What I suspect will happen is exactly what happened to you. I think as time goes by I'll relax a little. Thankfully, my children have not been traumatized by my desperate need for structure (at least not yet!) I am so thankful for your thoughtful reply. I also wanted to let you know--if you subscribe to Home Education Magazine or have access to it--that an article I wrote chronicling my confused entry into homeschooling will be published in the November/December issue. It's entitled "Welcome to the Sisterhood" by Amy Hollingsworth. Thank you so much for your help! Amy > Amy, > Here it is, nearly the end of the month -- I was hoping > the really hard questions were out of the way! :-D > You asked: > I honestly don't think there's one BEST way to homeschool. > For one thing, that would go completely against my belief > system. As we say here in Texas (maybe people say it other > places, too), there's always more than one way to skin a > cat. > Moreover, the problem with touting deschooling or unschooling > or relaxed homeschooling (or whatever) as The One and Only > Way is this: In spite of all our attempts to agree on a > proper definition for any of these terms, the reality will > be a little bit different in every family. In fact, it will > be different for every CHILD in every family. > Some families are going to have a wonderful time homeschooling, > no matter what method or philosophy they use. It sounds > to me as if things are going GREAT at your house -- so why > worry about changing something that's obviously working > well for you and your kids? As long as everyone's happy > and learning and enjoying the process, you're doing everything > right. I wouldn't change a thing. > Some kids don't MIND working out of workbooks. (I have > one these, myself.) They can sit there for three hours, > happily doing bookwork, and still feel like doing something > creative all afternoon. Other children think they're being > punished if they have to sit still for 5 minutes. (I have > one of these, too!) > In my heart of hearts (since you asked), I believe > that I'm very glad I was able to let go of MY school mindset. > I think my oldest child would have been terribly unhappy > if I hadn't. My youngest probably would have been, too. > The oldest never took anything on faith -- she questioned > everything. This, in fact, turned out to be an asset, but > only after her environment had been sufficiently modified. > Until then, *I* was the one being continually questioned, > because I was the one who was always trying to get her to > think like everyone else. (Big mistake.) My youngest "learns > on the hoof," so to speak. He has to be doing something > all the time. (I read aloud to him while he washes dishes > or cleans his room or flies paper airplanes across the living > room!) > This is exactly what we did the first few years. I > started out pretty structured, believe it or not. I didn't > use a packaged curriculum, I took things one day at a time, > and I always catered to their interests, BUT -- we still > "had school" most mornings. It worked. It just > didn't work perfectly. That is, mornings sometimes didn't > go so well. (Understatement of the century.) > Sounds familiar. I guess at some point I stopped and > asked myself, "Why am I pushing the handwriting routine? > What will be more important in 10 years...having had perfect > handwriting at age 7, or having had happy mornings (as well > as afternoons) at age 7?" (BTW, handwriting improves > with age, no matter what you do.) > COOL! What a creative, self-starting little guy you > have, there! He'll go far with that kind of initiative. > Obviously, he's very willing to work hard on the things > he loves doing. > Oh, you're not a slave to fear. You just want to do > it RIGHT. You want to make sure your kids are getting a > topnotch education and learning everything they need to > know. The only difference between you and me is that somewhere > along the road I began to believe that the organized, sit-down > schoolwork was getting in our way. (Warning: This could > happen to you someday, too.) > My kids still laugh about the bad old days. "Oooo," > they say, "remember when we were on a SCHEDULE? Remember > when Mama would be droning on about something or other, > and we'd be tapping out secret codes to each other under > the table?" (I never knew...) > I think you gotta do what you gotta do. If following > the curriculum in the morning keeps the panic attacks at > bay, and if no one's suffering terribly in the process, > where's the problem? > My goal is not to get people to change what they're > already doing. I'm just interested in letting people know > that viable alternatives do exist and in encouraging those > who really feel they need to try something different. It's > not a matter of "You should..." My message is > "You can..." > If someone said to me, "Listen, I've been deschooling > for 4 years, and it's just not working. The kids are bored > out of their minds, and they don't know ANYTHING," > I would definitely encourage them to try something different! > (Chances are good, their definition of deschooling might > not match up with mine, but that's another post.) > I hope this sort of answers your question, Amy. Keep > on keeping on! > Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Make it relevant! AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Tuesday, 29 September 1998, at 2:11 p.m. Response To: Penmanship & Spelling Author: Jayjay Date: Tuesday, 29 September 1998, at 8:01 a.m. > I have an almost 14 yr. old son that hates to write. > His Spelling and penmanship is terrible. Even dh is disappointed > that it is so bad. I just feel that I should give him words > to practice spelling and writing or nothing will improve. > I like the idea of unschooling but it seems to me there > are just some things you cannot get away without doing; > spelling, writing, and math. > What are your thoughts on this? How can it improve > without "making" him do what he hates? > Thanks. Learning has everything to do with MOTIVATION. The best way to make spelling, writing and math a delight to learn is by making it relevant to whatever it is that he is interested in. Tell us more about your child. What sort of things interest him? What is he like? We will be talking about this subject until Oct. 1. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Splitting yourself into many pieces AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Tuesday, 29 September 1998, at 2:39 p.m. Response To: Wondering..... Author: Haley Date: Monday, 28 September 1998, at 8:56 a.m. > And....I am afraid I'll be drawn into five different > pieces trying to help each child with their interest of > the moment. Being somewhat of a "lazy" mom, I > am a bit wary of this approach. HI! I'm a mom of two VERY different children but I am finding out that I really don't need to split myself into two to accomodate the interests of my children. I am just learning this now, though. A couple of months ago I had the same concern. My children are six and four. My oldest is very analytical and is into astronauts, planets, and loves history. My four year old is a naturalist--she loves bugs, dirt, flowers and animals---loves science. She is not analytical and is all "FEELINGS." At first I thought I would drive myself crazy. I'm finding out thought that I don't have to split myself up. This last week has been a prime example. Per my four year old's request we are reading about Florida Manatees. "Mom, they are just so cute and sweet," she says. Well, my son did not *SEEM* interested in reading about Manatees so I didn't make an issue of him sitting down with us during read aloud time. I found out today though that his little ears have been wide open the whole time, though. Today we went swimming in a spring at a local state park. We also went canoeing and as we were canoeing we saw a big sign that said CAUTION-MANATEES. My son jumped up in excitement! "MOM!!!!!! THERE ARE MANATEES HERE!!!!!!" Let me tell you, I had two very excited children! We didn't see any manatees...wrong time of the year. But, on the way out of the state park we picked up two manatee books at the gift shop and my son was reading them on the long car ride home. What I am trying to convey with this story is that excitement is CONTAGIOUS. You will find that if one person in your family is really excited about a topic, the other children will want to learn about it as well. Maybe not with the same depth but nonetheless you will not have to be splitting yourself into many different pieces. You will see that your children will "teach" each other things. They will be excited about their interests and they won't be able to stop themselves from talking about it. I bet you that tonight I will have TWO very INTERESTED children when we read another book we have on Florida Manatees! Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Cultivate a fascination with the world! AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Tuesday, 29 September 1998, at 4:02 p.m. Response To: Re: The facts about college and interest-led homeschooling Author: Sue Date: Tuesday, 29 September 1998, at 6:25 a.m. You wrote: "Cerelle I want to know more about preparing deschoolers/unschoolers for college. I am new and have three bright children. How do I ensure I am not giving them a ``spotty education?''" I really goofed up big-time when I made that remark about "spotty education." Why? Because everyone's education is spotty! We ALL have gaps, even the PhD folks among us. The more we learn, the more we discover we don't know. A good education REVEALS our ignorance -- to ourselves! And that's the point. I think the main idea is to make sure our kids are aware of all the wonderful things to find out about and to help them be desirous of learning more. This is the FOUNDATION that Giovanna speaks so eloquently about. And I cannot overstress the importance of this next sentence: In an ideal situation, WE ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES EDUCATING OUR CHILDREN! (Starting tomorrow, we'll be talking about the role of mentors in home education, so stay tuned!) Super-busy, swamped moms have to prioritize. You and the kids may need to sit down and decide what's most important NOW. Sometimes, if you try to do everything all at once, everything (and everyone) suffers. How old is your budding pianist? If she's really serious about wanting to improve her piano skills, she can probably teach herself to read music. If she prefers having a teacher, perhaps she's old enough to exchange babysitting services (or some other kind of work) for lessons from a local teacher. Or perhaps she can work for YOU in exchange for a little more attention in the music department. (Could she start taking on more of the cooking or housekeeping duties, allowing you more time to devote to her?) Situations like this call for creative problem-solving. You also said, "I see how my children depend upon me to teach them some things and that it definitely makes it easier for them in some areas when I teach or work with them." Well, that's very true. Kids appreciate knowing that we care enough to take the time to help them with the things they want to learn to do, and they often profit from our help. At the same time, circumstances do sometimes conspire to restrict the amount of time we have available. That's when we REALLY have to tweak the environment to give us a helping hand. That could mean turning off the TV and turning on the classical music radio station. It could mean checking out good audiobooks from the public library. (Maybe YOU don't have time to read Mark Twain aloud, but the guy on the tape has all the time in the world.) It could mean joining a 4-H wildlife project, or finding a homeschoolers' art co-op. "Please condense for me what you did you help your child have success." Goodness! Twelve years is a lot to condense! :-D In a nutshell, I've been able to let my children follow their interests, understanding that my influence is far-reaching. When do I step in? Often, it's when I think they may be overlooking something that happens to dovetail nicely with what they're already doing. If they're currently excited about Mexico, I try to get them interested in the Aztec calendar system, for example. Mainly, I'm just a reference librarian, or a living cross-reference guide! I don't worry much (if at all) about the typical school curriculum for their age level (World Book, et al.), but I do encourage them to explore all the sciences, read a wide range of literature (fiction and nonfiction), and find opportunities and reasons to write. I take learning seriously, and I EXPECT them to want to be well-educated. There are up cycles and down cycles in this business. I recognize this and don't panic when a kid has a temporary slump, but if things get a little too stagnant for my liking, I'm likely to throw my weight around. At the same time, I've always tried to remember that not much happens in a vacuum. Kids need interesting materials and useful tools and stimulating conversation, so I try to provide those things. "Should I guide my child at all?" I don't see how a parent can AVOID guiding her children! Our influence is HUGE. Our interests and attitudes rub off on our children (and vice versa). For this reason, my husband and I keep working on filling in the gaps in our own "spotty educations" -- I've learned that just about anything can be fascinating, and this has helped my kids feel the same way. Finally, colleges LOVE an applicant who finds the world a fascinating place and has demonstrated that attitude during his or her teen years. I think that's about as close as I can get to a "formula." Do come back for next month's discussion about finding mentors for our homeschooled children. (Starts tomorrow!) Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Deschooling is IDEAL for college-bound kids AUTHOR: Marianne H. DATE: Tuesday, 29 September 1998, at 9:58 p.m. Response To: Deschooling is IDEAL for college-bound kids Author: Cerelle Date: Monday, 28 September 1998, at 3:54 p.m. How do I find out about scholarships for homeschool teens? Where do we begin to look?Where do homeschool teens take the psat tests? > Marianne-- > If you've already read all the other posts on this > board, you probably know that my unschooled daughter applied > to 3 highly selective colleges and was accepted (and offered > big scholarships) by all 3. She was able to go to her first-choice > school, is now in her 2nd year there, and is doing extremely > well. > But I'd like to tell you about another homeschooled > child I know who started college this fall. (He is on a > full 4-year scholarship.) Unlike my daughter, who is into > literature and writing, this young man's first loves are > science and math. He asked me to be his writing coach during > his last year at home, so I got a close-up view of how he > conducted his education. Each year, he wrote out the academic > goals he wanted to achieve. He chose his own books (few > of which were actual textbooks) and made his own assignments. > Month by month, he drafted his own curriculum. For some > subjects, he engaged personal coaches or mentors (as I mentioned, > I was his writing coach last year), but for the most part, > he learned on his own -- mostly from library books. Last > year, he also took 2 semesters of physics at the local junior > college. > This extraordinary, self-taught teen scored so high > on the PSAT that he was named a National Merit Finalist. > He would sometimes call me up to tell me about a book he > was reading (with a great deal of excitement in his voice!), > and the e-mails he sends from college are delightful. He's > having a wonderful time, and he recently told me that he > thinks he picked the best college for what he wants to do > with his life. > He is one of 6 children in a large homeschooling family. > His 3 older brothers and sisters have also gone to college, > and 2 have already graduated. I think he is a SHINING example > of how powerful children can be when they are allowed to > shape their own education. > Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Scholarships for college AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Wednesday, 30 September 1998, at 5:28 a.m. Response To: Re: Deschooling is IDEAL for college-bound kids Author: Marianne H. Date: Tuesday, 29 September 1998, at 9:58 p.m. > How do I find out about scholarships for homeschool > teens? Where do we begin to look?Where do homeschool teens > take the psat tests? Last question first: Homeschoolers can register to take the PSAT or SAT right here on the Internet (I *think* the URL is www.collegeboard.org, but you might want to try the search engine route, instead of taking my word for it). We simply walked into the local public high school and asked the academic counselor for a registration packet. He was very nice and offered lots of friendly advice (which I ignored, because it didn't apply to our situation). First question: There are many different ways to go scholarship-hunting. I had heard all sorts of things -- how you should start looking 3 years ahead of time, etc., etc. We read some books about it at the library (there's a popular one called Finding Money for College), but in our case, none of that really mattered. The way it worked for us was that AFTER my daughter had completed her college applications, the colleges themselves included financial aid and scholarship offers with her acceptance letters. WE didn't have to do anything, other than fill out all those aid forms at the time of her application. The situation is probably a little different for every homeschooler. I recommend finding out all you can from the library (info about colleges and scholarships is available in the reference section), and then go from there. I also recommend getting Cafi Cohen's book, And What About College? -- visit her Web site by clicking next to her name on the Main Board here at Kaleidoscapes! Also, have you checked out the High School/College Tips Board? Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: About piano AUTHOR: Lee DATE: Wednesday, 30 September 1998, at 5:43 a.m. Response To: Re: The facts about college and interest-led homeschooling Author: Sue Date: Tuesday, 29 September 1998, at 6:25 a.m. My two dd both loved to play the piano. The older one plays by ear and the younger watched and learned from the older. They used to play all the time. That all changed when the older started lessons. The lessons turned her off totally. Now she rarely plays and has lost all heart for it. The younger one still plays occasionally and is teaching herself to read music. It breaks my heart that older dd no longer plays. She had such a natural feel for it. And it was her own idea to take lessons, too. Any ideas how to re-awaken her interest? If so, please answer on the main board. I guess this is really "off topic" here. > ======================================== MESSAGE: Lazy about Math AUTHOR: Judy DATE: Wednesday, 30 September 1998, at 6:28 a.m. Hi! I've enjoyed this board so much this month, and I'm really looking forward to next month's topic! Giovanna and Cerelle (and others)--You're AWESOME! I'd like to see how you would address my concern about deschooling math. I have 9.5 yo and 8 yo daughters, going on our 3rd year of homeschooling with a very eclectic/relaxed/unschooling approach. I'm really trying to encourage mental math and real-life applications of math--using games, cooking, crafts, etc.... My older daughter just seems so LAZY about working with numbers, and I fret and worry about it because it seems like if we'd only spend a little time on the "facts" or whatever (something she hates), the computation wouldn't be such a drag. Example: All three of us were playing Yahtzee together, and when it came time to add up her score, she took one look at the numbers and just blew it off--didn't want to bother adding them up to see what her score was. Yes, she may just not have CARED at that moment , but I tend to see this type of attitude whenever a "mathematical" situation comes up that might be a little "work" on her part. I don't know what to think any more--I go the rounds between just not bothering with it and adopting a "wait-and-see" attitude, to genuine panic and the uncontrollable desire to call one of those math tutoring franchises for some sessions. If I ask her, she seems pretty nonchalant about it. She says she knows how to add, subtract, multiply and divide. But, when she struggles with an answer, she'll say "oh, subtraction is hard for me" or just shrug her shoulders. What do you guys think? Judy tanguay@jps.net ======================================== MESSAGE: About my son... AUTHOR: Jayjay DATE: Wednesday, 30 September 1998, at 8:23 a.m. Response To: Make it relevant! Author: Giovanna Date: Tuesday, 29 September 1998, at 2:11 p.m. > Tell us more about your child. What sort of things > interest him? What is he like? We will be talking about > this subject until Oct. 1. > Giovanna My son is interested in computers, collecting antiques and junk from his grampa, fixing & taking things apart, and reads all kinds of books. My dh has him fix computers when something goes wrong with a friend's computer. He took apart and fixed out garden tiller. He plays with electronics whenever he can, soldering, etc. He says he'd reather homeschool than go to a private school because it gives him the freedom to explore the things he's interested in. I take my kids to a private school once a week for French and he has to writeout the new phrases they're learning but it's usually only 10 a week. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Lazy about Math AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Wednesday, 30 September 1998, at 8:23 a.m. Response To: Lazy about Math Author: Judy Date: Wednesday, 30 September 1998, at 6:28 a.m. Hi, Judy-- > My older daughter just seems so LAZY about working > with numbers, and I fret and worry about it because it seems > like if we'd only spend a little time on the "facts" > or whatever (something she hates), the computation wouldn't > be such a drag. It's true: practice makes easy. The more often you do something, the less effort it takes to do it. In this sense, working with numbers is like cleaning your room -- if you do it only once a month, it's going to be a real chore. The usual school remedy (or prevention) for this is to drill, drill, drill with worksheets, timed tests, and lots of homework problems. But that's not the ONLY way to make math a habit or reinforce the facts, as you well know, since you're already in the habit of playing math games with your kids. Yahtzee's an excellent choice, and every time you play it, you ARE "spending time on the facts." There are a number of ways of looking at this. Your daughter didn't want to go to the trouble of adding up all those numbers in long columns, just to learn her final score. That may have seemed like a LOT of work to her right now, and when something seems hard to do, the pay-off has to be rewarding enough to make it worth our while. But it sounds like she WAS willing to compute her smaller scores (the products of her individual dice throws). If this had been too hard for her, she might have been "lazy" about that, too. When adding up long columns of figures doesn't seem hard anymore, she won't be reluctant to do it. My guess is that this indeed isn't really a "laziness" problem, but rather -- as you yourself suggested -- a not-enough-practice or not-in-the-habit problem. It's now up to you to decide whether to provide more practice in the form of smaller, "bite-size" addition problems embedded in other games or activities, or whether to make her add columns of figures every day. I'd go with the former, but it's your choice. :-) Or...(really radical solution here, so be warned)...you can say to yourself, "Well, she's only 9. Why sweat it?" You may be conscious of what the 9-year-olds in SCHOOL are having to do, mathwise, and that could be coloring your opinion of what your daughter is able or willing to do right now. Understandable! But one of the challenges of thorough deschooling is to get away from the habit of making that kind of comparison. > I don't know what to think any more--I go the rounds > between just not bothering with it and adopting a "wait-and-see" > attitude, to genuine panic and the uncontrollable desire > to call one of those math tutoring franchises for some sessions. Ha ha!! Well, you can "tutor" her yourself, of course. Just make it bite-sized and fun for both of you. Take advantage of odd moments -- toss out SMALL math challenges. In the car, for example, see if she can add up the ages of everyone in the family, including all the grandparents. Or see if she'd like to guess what the odometer will say when you get where you're going. Once you've decided to really focus on this issue (in other words, if you make math a priority), you'll come up with all sorts of ways to weave math into everyday living and breathing. > If I ask her, she seems pretty nonchalant about it. > She says she knows how to add, subtract, multiply and divide. Knowing "how" and finding it effortless can be worlds apart. When she balks, you can point out that the idea is for it to be EASY. That should appeal to her lazybone! :-D Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re:Lazy about Math AUTHOR: sharon DATE: Wednesday, 30 September 1998, at 8:37 a.m. Response To: Lazy about Math Author: Judy Date: Wednesday, 30 September 1998, at 6:28 a.m. Judy, I found a site that offers some helpful ways to include our children in everyday math challenges. You might find it good reading. sharon > Hi! I've enjoyed this board so much this month, and > I'm really looking forward to next month's topic! Giovanna > and Cerelle (and others)--You're AWESOME! > I'd like to see how you would address my concern about > deschooling math. I have 9.5 yo and 8 yo daughters, going > on our 3rd year of homeschooling with a very eclectic/relaxed/unschooling > approach. I'm really trying to encourage mental math and > real-life applications of math--using games, cooking, crafts, > etc.... My older daughter just seems so LAZY about working > with numbers, and I fret and worry about it because it seems > like if we'd only spend a little time on the "facts" > or whatever (something she hates), the computation wouldn't > be such a drag. > Example: All three of us were playing Yahtzee together, > and when it came time to add up her score, she took one > look at the numbers and just blew it off--didn't want to > bother adding them up to see what her score was. Yes, she > may just not have CARED at that moment , but I tend to > see this type of attitude whenever a "mathematical" > situation comes up that might be a little "work" > on her part. > I don't know what to think any more--I go the rounds > between just not bothering with it and adopting a "wait-and-see" > attitude, to genuine panic and the uncontrollable desire > to call one of those math tutoring franchises for some sessions. > > If I ask her, she seems pretty nonchalant about it. > She says she knows how to add, subtract, multiply and divide. > But, when she struggles with an answer, she'll say "oh, > subtraction is hard for me" or just shrug her shoulders. > > What do you guys think? > Judy tanguay@jps.net ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: I shall try that link once again. AUTHOR: sharon DATE: Wednesday, 30 September 1998, at 8:44 a.m. I would seem I'm not doing something right. My apologies It is as follows: www.ed.gov./pubs/parents/Math/index.html sharon > ======================================== MESSAGE: Would he be interested in.... AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Wednesday, 30 September 1998, at 9:27 a.m. Response To: About my son... Author: Jayjay Date: Wednesday, 30 September 1998, at 8:23 a.m. > > My son is interested in computers, collecting antiques > and junk from his grampa, fixing & taking things apart, > and reads all kinds of books. My dh has him fix computers > when something goes wrong with a friend's computer. He took > apart and fixed out garden tiller. He plays with electronics > whenever he can, soldering, etc. > He says he'd reather homeschool than go to a private > school because it gives him the freedom to explore the things > he's interested in. Making an interest notebook? It's great to hear he loves to read. You are miles ahead when a child loves to read. Good writers are usually people who love to read. This is how Benjamin Franklin learned to write! He would read what others wrote, copy it and then later try to rewrite it (always thinking he could express himself better) and compare it to the original author. Ok..... Back to the notebook. I'm not sure if you are using any curriculum for Spelling/Writing. What you want to do to encourage more writing is to make the writing relevant to his life and his interests. In other words, don't make him write a book report on a book he doesn't care to read. You are just asking for trouble! :-) Instead... Encourage him to make a notebook or a book on what he is interested in. My son (age 6) has a notebook about outer space and you know...he NEVER balks at having to copy "space information" for his notebook. A notebook could be nothing more than a binder, divided into sections. My son's space notebook is a black binder, divided into four sections (universe, our solar system, astronauts, space exploration). Under the space exploration part he has downloaded pictures from the internet and information on all of the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo missions. He has also copied a brief summary description to go with each mission. For your son... Maybe he would like to make a computer notebook? Maybe he would like to make a "FIX IT NOTEBOOK" where he explains how to fix different types equipment. Maybe he can somehow tie this in to a little money-making business??? What do you think? Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: I'll give it a try and keep you informed. (NT) AUTHOR: Jayjay DATE: Wednesday, 30 September 1998, at 11:50 a.m. Response To: Would he be interested in.... Author: Giovanna Date: Wednesday, 30 September 1998, at 9:27 a.m. > > Making an interest notebook? > It's great to hear he loves to read. You are miles > ahead when a child loves to read. Good writers are usually > people who love to read. This is how Benjamin Franklin learned > to write! He would read what others wrote, copy it and then > later try to rewrite it (always thinking he could express > himself better) and compare it to the original author. > Ok..... Back to the notebook. > I'm not sure if you are using any curriculum for Spelling/Writing. > What you want to do to encourage more writing is to make > the writing relevant to his life and his interests. In other > words, don't make him write a book report on a book he doesn't > care to read. You are just asking for trouble! :-) > Instead... > Encourage him to make a notebook or a book on what > he is interested in. My son (age 6) has a notebook about > outer space and you know...he NEVER balks at having to copy > "space information" for his notebook. > A notebook could be nothing more than a binder, divided > into sections. My son's space notebook is a black binder, > divided into four sections (universe, our solar system, > astronauts, space exploration). Under the space exploration > part he has downloaded pictures from the internet and information > on all of the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo missions. He has > also copied a brief summary description to go with each > mission. > For your son... > Maybe he would like to make a computer notebook? Maybe > he would like to make a "FIX IT NOTEBOOK" where > he explains how to fix different types equipment. Maybe > he can somehow tie this in to a little money-making business??? > > What do you think? > Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Any Chance This Could Become A Permanent Board? AUTHOR: Kat DATE: Thursday, 1 October 1998, at 12:41 a.m. I would love to have a message board allocated for unschooling and deschooling. Kat ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Any Chance This Could Become A Permanent Board? AUTHOR: Cindy Johns DATE: Thursday, 1 October 1998, at 5:01 a.m. Response To: Any Chance This Could Become A Permanent Board? Author: Kat Date: Thursday, 1 October 1998, at 12:41 a.m. > I would love to have a message board allocated for > unschooling and deschooling. > Kat I'm sorry that there are no plans for a permanent deschooling/unschooling board in the very near future; BUT, the wonderful ladies who host the Monthly Topic board are here to stay! :-D Cerelle and Giovanna (and many of the other hosts/co-hosts at Kaleidoscapes) are very pro-unschooling, so there won't be a lack of that kind of support in this neighborhood. :) Cindy ======================================== This is end of the Deschooling Digest Thank you!Back to the TopBack to the Digest Index