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(HOMESCHOOLING) DISCUSSION BOARD
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Deschooling Digest (part 3)
MESSAGE: Our children's giftings AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 9:05 a.m. Response To: Re: Listening to their hearts Author: sharon Date: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 8:55 a.m. > I believe that every one of us has been created with > gifts and abilities that need to be unlocked. It is the > desire of my heart that each of our children become proficient > in what was placed inside them. YES! Those "bents" have everything to do with the type of person a child is meant to become. > I also believe, because > of my own convictions, that we need God's direction in doing > that or they will be discouraged. Or they will become numb! No passions for anything. No real drive to pursue interests. >So that is how we desire > to approach their education as well, because that is how > we've always handled their hearts spiritually. I just do > not know why on earth it has taken us so long to see this. > It has really made for a RICHER life for us all. I don't know why it took me a long time to see it either but it did. It's like we tend to treat the intellectual side of our children different from anything else--as if it was not part of their unique identity. I guess SCHOOL did us in and we didn't know of another way?! Hence, we DE-SCHOOL ourselves and it is a process. Mind renewal and new ideas do not become part of us overnight. Giovanna > sharon > ======================================== MESSAGE: More about self-confidence AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 1:52 p.m. You know how some things just seem to pop out at you? It happened to me again this morning as I was reading an essay by Hans Christian von Baeyer about Fermi problems. These are named for the physicist, Enrico Fermi, and as von Baeyer explains, "A Fermi problem has a characteristic profile: Upon first hearing it, one doesn't have even the remotest notion of what the answer might be, and one feels certain that too little information has been provided to find a solution." The way to solve a Fermi problem is to break it down into smaller problems. These smaller problems can be solved ("without the help of experts or reference books"), and then a reasonable estimate can be made that will come close to the correct answer for the larger problem. My own (kind of silly) example of a Fermi problem would be if I wanted to know how approximately many leaves were on the big hackberry tree behind my house. To reach the solution, Fermi style, I might try to figure out how many leaves there were on an average twig, how many twigs were on an average branch, how many branches were on an average limb, and so on. Then I could make an educated guess about how many leaves might be on the whole tree. Or I might try to count the number of leaves in a cubic foot of the tree's crown, then estimate how many cubic feet of space the crown took up, and multiply those 2 numbers together. A non-Fermi solution would be if I kept looking through books on trees until I found one that happened to give the average number of leaves on a large hackberry. Or I could call up the county extension agent's office and ask someone to try to find that information for me. So in the first approach, I rely on my own reasoning power and common sense to find an answer. In the second approach, I rely on someone else's research. At the end of von Baeyer's essay, THIS is what popped out at me: "Looking up the answer, or letting someone else find it, actually impoverishes one; it robs one of the pleasure and pride that accompany creativity and deprives one of an experience that, more than anything else in life, bolsters self-confidence. Self-confidence, in turn, is the essential prerequisite for solving Fermi problems. Thus, approaching personal dilemmas as Fermi problems can become, by a kind of chain reaction, a habit that enriches life." I love this! I think it applies to MANY levels of the homeschooling experience, too. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Neat and.. AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 2:12 p.m. Response To: More about self-confidence Author: Cerelle Date: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 1:52 p.m. ..quite deep and "philosophical" at the same time. Just the kind of stuff I like to talk about! Can't you tell??? ROTFL! Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Sharing a quickie... AUTHOR: Lynette DATE: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 2:28 p.m. My dh does the teaching during the day for homeschool because we also run a home day care. This is our first year of hsing our 1st grade dd and 2nd grade ds. Here's what he emailed me around lunch time today: Hi sweetheart, The rug rats are doing really well & the kids are doing great in school. Zach has some work he has to finish after snack today. But he worked really hard on his work today :>)..... Hannah did really well in school too :>0.... I let her play the math game today. She liked it. It blew her mind when she realized she was adding. She wants to show you what she learned..... I can hardly wait to get home (we're using Miquon, by the way and using a Cuisenaire rod game book). Thanks for all of your interesting and encouraging and thought-provoking posts! Lynette ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Testing AUTHOR: Teresa DATE: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 2:46 p.m. Response To: Testing Author: Cerelle Date: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 5:42 p.m. > I understand your worries, Ann. Between being a 1st-time > homeschooler and living in a state that breathes down your > neck, it's got to be nerve-wracking! > According to what I read on the Main Board today, VA > also allows portfolio assessment at the end of the year > (in lieu of standardized tests). Have you checked into this > at all? It would be up to you to decided which evaluation > method gave you the most freedom and the least hassle. > I wish I could wave a magic wand over you and banish > all those worries, but you'll probably just have to "grow > out of them" the hard way. :-) > I will say this -- curious, interested, alert children > (and it sounds like you have one of these!) usually do real > well on those tests, no matter WHAT they've been doing all > year. I know it's hard to take something like that on faith, > though, and I don't expect you to. So I repeat, keep doing > what works and makes you both happy. > I wonder if that's true! I mean, it probably is, since > those tests are usually pretty easy. But here's something > else to consider: Is this going to be your bottom line? > Whether or not your daughter will be able to pass a standardized > skills test at the end of the year? > If you're going to do this the traditional way, you > can set WAY higher goals than that! Just something to think > about... > It does, indeed. I'm getting a picture of a really > on-the-ball mom who has lots of ideas about how to challenge > and encourage her daughter's academic growth. I've said > this before and I'll say it again -- just because you do > a few hours of "sit-down" work each day doesn't > mean you aren't doing lots of other highly educational stuff > throughout the rest of the day. Don't ever feel like you're > being backed into a corner, here. YOU and YOUR CHILD are > the ones making the decisions now, and I wish you luck! > > Cerelle >I'm having the same testing problems. I live in Arkansas and have to >test in 5, 7, and 10 grade. This is my first year of homeschooling >and I would love to deschool but I am to afraid of what is on those >tests. I would like to have one of those Stanford 9 tests just to see >what I'm supposed to be teaching toward, then I could figure out how >to teach my child the best way. I don't want to teach the test, but >what choices do you have with this stupid law around. It scares me to >think that my son might fail this test and all the flack we would >both get. I wish someone would change this testing law before my 2nd >grader has to take it. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Testing AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 4:36 p.m. Response To: Re: Testing Author: Teresa Date: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 2:46 p.m. Teresa, Just a few ideas here... (1) I wonder if there might be a "relaxed homeschoolers" support group of some kind in your state that you could contact about your concerns. Surely not EVERY homeschooling family in Arkansas is following a standard curriculum. (2) Do you know of anyone whose child had to stop homeschooling due to a poor showing on one of those tests? Check around and see just how big a threat it really is. (3) Do you know for sure that Arkansas doesn't allow alternatives (other than the tests) for evaluating a homeschooling program? (They may try to keep them quiet, even if options to exist.) (4) What is the threshold score required on those tests? Are you already familiar with all the requirements, inside and out? (Like -- does the child have to score above a certain percentage in every subject area?) (5) Do you already have reason to believe that your child(ren) might NOT score well? Or does the whole idea just make you nervous? If it's simply a case of nerves, I understand, but chances are your kids will do fine. Personally, I would fight tooth and nail against any law that subjected my kids to yearly testing. I would also investigate every single loophole I could find. (And seek support from other unschooling types in the area.) If all else fails, you could always consider moving to Texas! :-) We've still got plenty of open prairie! Cerelle >I'm having the same testing problems. I live in Arkansas and have to >test in 5, 7, and 10 grade. This is my first year of homeschooling >and I would love to deschool but I am to afraid of what is on those >tests. I would like to have one of those Stanford 9 tests just to see >what I'm supposed to be teaching toward, then I could figure out how >to teach my child the best way. I don't want to teach the test, but >what choices do you have with this stupid law around. It scares me to >think that my son might fail this test and all the flack we would >both get. I wish someone would change this testing law before my 2nd >grader has to take it. > ======================================== MESSAGE: deschooling AUTHOR: Tracey DATE: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 9:48 p.m. It gets better!!! It's taken over a year for my 9yr old to embrace the concept of unschooling, but now that he has, its magic. ======================================== MESSAGE: Any yet I feel so scattered at times??!! AUTHOR: Kari C DATE: Tuesday, 15 September 1998, at 6:35 a.m. Okay I LOVE the idea of the deschooling/unschooling and as I posted on the main board I feel this way is partially the way my son may need to learn and I feel comfortable with the whole idea...and yet at times I feel so scattered. My son loves to jump from one thing to another(5 years old and VERY active and inquisitive)and although I do not mind, there are times I feel so lost....I try to structure some things I feel are important(bible verse and maybe a phonics lesson) but other than that I feel we are jumping all over the place. So how do you all handle this.....just let them jump or try and direct the jumping? I am a real planner and list maker and used to "being in control" type person so I am fighting my natural personality some days and getting VERY frustrated. How do I handle this and keep my sanity? Can you unschool and still have a schedule of sorts? Thanks and HELPPPPPPPPP Blessings to all, Kari C. ======================================== MESSAGE: A plan within the freedom AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Tuesday, 15 September 1998, at 3:19 p.m. Response To: Any yet I feel so scattered at times??!! Author: Kari C Date: Tuesday, 15 September 1998, at 6:35 a.m. > Okay I LOVE the idea of the deschooling/unschooling > and as I posted on the main board I feel this way is partially > the way my son may need to learn and I feel comfortable > with the whole idea...and yet at times I feel so scattered. > My son loves to jump from one thing to another(5 years old > and VERY active and inquisitive) It sounds like a normal 5 year old boy!!!! :-) >and although I do not mind, > there are times I feel so lost....I try to structure some > things I feel are important(bible verse and maybe a phonics > lesson) but other than that I feel we are jumping all over > the place. So how do you all handle this.....just let them > jump or try and direct the jumping? Well....hmmm... My son (six years old) loves to jump around with history. Right now we are doing a deep dive into Ancient Egypt per his request but we are also doing a lot of early American history per his request as well. At first I was a little bit upset by this because I had this notion in my mind that world history should be covered chronologically and to be honest there is still part of me that bugs me about that. But, my son is so interested in these two time periods so how can I not learn with him about it? How could I say, "no son, this is not the way you learn this?" That would defeat the whole purpose of why I am homeschooling, wouldn't it? What I did was invest in a timeline. Now we can tie in these periods and he can see clearly that one happened wayyy before other and it give him a time reference. It's helped quite a bit. >I am a real planner > and list maker and used to "being in control" > type person so I am fighting my natural personality some > days and getting VERY frustrated. How do I handle this and > keep my sanity? Can you unschool and still have a schedule > of sorts? Thanks and HELPPPPPPPPP I think what you are really asking is how do you unschool and still have a lesson plan that ties all of these interests into a neat plan. Am I right? In these early years, the most important thing you can do is to encourage and preserve your child's sense of wonder (I am stealing this line from Karey and Monte Swan). This is by far THE MOST IMPORTANT thing you can do. #1 Priority!!! Things don't necessarily have to "fit" in a certain order or into a neat little unit study right now because I'm not sure that these young, little minds see the world in that way just yet. They are not making these connections in their thinking yet. I think that as your child continues to explore what is around him he will slowly develop certain stronger interests. One thing will lead to another and it will all tie in. EVENTUALLY, THOUGH...not right away. That is what happened here at home. Anyhow, I think I really want to read what Cerelle has to say about this. LOL! Cerelle??? :-) Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Looking at this in a different light AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Tuesday, 15 September 1998, at 5:55 p.m. Response To: A plan within the freedom Author: Giovanna Date: Tuesday, 15 September 1998, at 3:19 p.m. You know what this makes me think of? How willingly we accept the notion that it's perfectly normal and OK to "jump" from phonics to math to science to history...all in one morning! Now isn't that odd? Where's the chronology in that? And yet it unsettles us if our children spend the morning studying ancient Greece and the afternoon studying the Civil War. This is just another symptom of how thoroughly our school experience shapes our thinking about how learning should happen. We're like those old zoo tigers that kept pacing the same 6'x6' area of floor space, even AFTER the bars to their cages were removed. They were so used to being confined to a small space, they didn't know how to move beyond the old perimeter. The truth is, *I* certainly jump around a lot in my own learning. Do I require myself to stick to a certain period of history or area of science in my own reading? No. I read about whatever I'm interested in when I visit the library or bookstore. Would my friends criticize me for reading Dickens in the morning and Shakespeare at night? Certainly not. Is there any REAL reason why our children's studies should be orderly and controlled, while our own learning can be freewheeling and interest-driven? Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Thank you for showing us the "different light" (grin) AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Tuesday, 15 September 1998, at 6:12 p.m. Response To: Looking at this in a different light Author: Cerelle Date: Tuesday, 15 September 1998, at 5:55 p.m. > You know what this makes me think of? How willingly > we accept the notion that it's perfectly normal and OK to > "jump" from phonics to math to science to history...all > in one morning! TRUE TRUE TRUE TRUE! > Now isn't that odd? Where's the chronology in that? There isn't. > And yet it unsettles us if our children spend the morning > studying ancient Greece and the afternoon studying the Civil > War. > This is just another symptom of how thoroughly our > school experience shapes our thinking about how learning > should happen. YEP! This is so, so, true. > We're like those old zoo tigers that kept > pacing the same 6'x6' area of floor space, even AFTER the > bars to their cages were removed. They were so used to being > confined to a small space, they didn't know how to move > beyond the old perimeter. Isn't that awful? I always feel so bad for those tigers and bears that pace from side to side at the zoo. They look so incredibly pathetic and bored. (grin) > The truth is, *I* certainly jump around a lot in my > own learning. Do I require myself to stick to a certain > period of history or area of science in my own reading? > No. I read about whatever I'm interested in when I visit > the library or bookstore. Would my friends criticize me > for reading Dickens in the morning and Shakespeare at night? > Certainly not. > Is there any REAL reason why our children's studies > should be orderly and controlled, while our own learning > can be freewheeling and interest-driven? No reason that I can think of right off the top of my head! At least not in the broad sense. Can you think of any subject or topic that must be taught systematically? Maybe math. Before you can multiply you must know how to add? That type of thing??? Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Enjoying the Process--This is the MAIN GOAL! Don't lose sight of that! (read on) AUTHOR: Tammy DATE: Tuesday, 15 September 1998, at 7:27 p.m. Response To: Enjoying the Process--This is the MAIN GOAL! Don't lose sight of that! (read on) Author: Giovanna Date: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 8:08 p.m. Yes, this makes alot of sense. As for math, my son does (for the most part) enjoy working from the book. I just thought throwing in something different once in a while might be "fun" for him. But, we really don't have a problem with the math book. On the other hand, english, well this is different. My son hates english. He would rather do "chores" than english. Any suggestions? p.s. Sorry its taken me so long to respond to your answer, things have been really busy lately. Thanks Tammy ======================================== MESSAGE: Sequence and system AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Tuesday, 15 September 1998, at 8:52 p.m. Response To: Thank you for showing us the "different light" (grin) Author: Giovanna Date: Tuesday, 15 September 1998, at 6:12 p.m. Giovanna, > Can you think > of any subject or topic that must be taught systematically? > Maybe math. Before you can multiply you must know how to > add? That type of thing??? You'd think so, and it's no doubt true that a child must have an understanding of putting two numbers together before s/he can understand the concept of multiplication. But I think kids understand this stuff, deep down, WAY before we confuse the issue by having them do problems on paper. Here's an example I've used many times (and if you've heard this story before, forgive me, but I think it illustrates what we're talking about better than anything else I could say)... Ariel, at age 3, sat on the kitchen floor one day with 3 forks in her hands. Each fork had 4 tines. I was cooking, not paying much attention to her. Suddenly she said, "Hey, Mama, you know what? Three fours are twelve!" Now I had NOT been teaching her addition OR multiplication. Sure, we counted things a lot, and we'd figure out how old she'd be in another couple of years...that sort of thing...but I hadn't been doing anything formal. She could add things up in her head, evidently, and she could ALSO intuit the idea of multiplication! How much sense would it have made, if I'd said, "Oh, honey, you shouldn't be doing that yet...you haven't worked through 1st grade addition"? A lot of kids understand decimals before they understand fractions, because they pay attention to how we notate money. $1.98? That's decimals! But math texts always teach fractions first. I say, go with what the kid's already doing, because they'll gobble up anything you give them that way. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Thank you Cerelle and Giovanna AUTHOR: sharon DATE: Tuesday, 15 September 1998, at 10:50 p.m. Response To: Looking at this in a different light Author: Cerelle Date: Tuesday, 15 September 1998, at 5:55 p.m. This input you ladies have offered really goes a long way for me. Our children have had questions that have them jumping around all day long and it caused me to think that they might need some stucture to "stay on target" with SOMETHING. But after reading your postings I realized what I was mulling around only led me back to what we have just left. I'm still looking for balance in all of this at home - you ladies just keep talking...it all is being put together bit by bit for me. Thanks sharon > You know what this makes me think of? How willingly > we accept the notion that it's perfectly normal and OK to > "jump" from phonics to math to science to history...all > in one morning! > Now isn't that odd? Where's the chronology in that? > > And yet it unsettles us if our children spend the morning > studying ancient Greece and the afternoon studying the Civil > War. > This is just another symptom of how thoroughly our > school experience shapes our thinking about how learning > should happen. We're like those old zoo tigers that kept > pacing the same 6'x6' area of floor space, even AFTER the > bars to their cages were removed. They were so used to being > confined to a small space, they didn't know how to move > beyond the old perimeter. > The truth is, *I* certainly jump around a lot in my > own learning. Do I require myself to stick to a certain > period of history or area of science in my own reading? > No. I read about whatever I'm interested in when I visit > the library or bookstore. Would my friends criticize me > for reading Dickens in the morning and Shakespeare at night? > Certainly not. > Is there any REAL reason why our children's studies > should be orderly and controlled, while our own learning > can be freewheeling and interest-driven? > Cerelle > ======================================== MESSAGE: Does your son like to read? (NT) AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Wednesday, 16 September 1998, at 5:19 a.m. Response To: Re: Enjoying the Process--This is the MAIN GOAL! Don't lose sight of that! (read on) Author: Tammy Date: Tuesday, 15 September 1998, at 7:27 p.m. > > Yes, this makes alot of sense. As for math, my son > does (for the most part) enjoy working from the book. I > just thought throwing in something different once in a while > might be "fun" for him. But, we really don't have > a problem with the math book. On the other hand, english, > well this is different. My son hates english. He would rather > do "chores" than english. Any suggestions? > p.s. Sorry its taken me so long to respond to your > answer, things have been really busy lately. > Thanks > Tammy > ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Thanks from me also...what a great help AUTHOR: Kari C DATE: Wednesday, 16 September 1998, at 6:46 a.m. Response To: Thank you Cerelle and Giovanna Author: sharon Date: Tuesday, 15 September 1998, at 10:50 p.m. I second the Thank you and am grateful for the help to try and keep my balance also in all this. I am reassured by the posts from Cerelle and Giovanna that not only is the perfectly normal behavior but that it is also very educational.I will try to control my controlling urges and join in the jumping!!! Best to all, kari c. > This input you ladies have offered really goes a long > way for me. Our children have had questions that have them > jumping around all day long and it caused me to think that > they might need some stucture to "stay on target" > with SOMETHING. But after reading your postings I realized > what I was mulling around only led me back to what we have > just left. I'm still looking for balance in all of this > at home - you ladies just keep talking...it all is being > put together bit by bit for me. Thanks sharon ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: deschooling--help! AUTHOR: Susan DATE: Wednesday, 16 September 1998, at 1:04 p.m. Response To: Re: deschooling--help! Author: Susan Date: Wednesday, 9 September 1998, at 4:42 p.m. I'm back-- This time with some medical information. My son's attention-hogging was so out of control, so uncharacteristic, so unlike anything I'd seen in him around previous moves or other bigger upheavals, that I sought medical help. Well, natural medicine. Took him to a master of Chinese medicine, who found a strong but irregular pulse, which he said could account for some of the behaviors as well as for a tendency towards insomnia. Anyway, he prescribed herbs and wants to see us again in 2 weeks. I know this is somewhat off topic, but it reminds me of the importance of paying attention to our own intuitions about our children and honoring the intuitive knowing. Who else besides me knows what sets this boy off, what makes him happy, what he normally is and is not capable of? I could tell this was beyond ordinary "period-of-adjustment" stuff for him and I knew he needed some kind of help I couldn't give, so I asked every expert I knew (including you longtime un/deschoolers!) for help. I am most grateful for the wise words I got here, and will post again after the herbs have had time to work--or not. Also, we will have him evaluated by his regular MD regarding this irregular pulse..... The message is one of gratitude and also of trusting/acting on your own instincts about your precious babies. Susan ======================================== MESSAGE: Thanks for sharing your story! Please keep in touch! (NT) AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Wednesday, 16 September 1998, at 1:26 p.m. Response To: Re: deschooling--help! Author: Susan Date: Wednesday, 16 September 1998, at 1:04 p.m. > I'm back-- > This time with some medical information. My son's attention-hogging > was so out of control, so uncharacteristic, so unlike anything > I'd seen in him around previous moves or other bigger upheavals, > that I sought medical help. Well, natural medicine. Took > him to a master of Chinese medicine, who found a strong > but irregular pulse, which he said could account for some > of the behaviors as well as for a tendency towards insomnia. > Anyway, he prescribed herbs and wants to see us again in > 2 weeks. > I know this is somewhat off topic, but it reminds me > of the importance of paying attention to our own intuitions > about our children and honoring the intuitive knowing. Who > else besides me knows what sets this boy off, what makes > him happy, what he normally is and is not capable of? I > could tell this was beyond ordinary "period-of-adjustment" > stuff for him and I knew he needed some kind of help I couldn't > give, so I asked every expert I knew (including you longtime > un/deschoolers!) for help. > I am most grateful for the wise words I got here, and > will post again after the herbs have had time to work--or > not. Also, we will have him evaluated by his regular MD > regarding this irregular pulse..... > The message is one of gratitude and also of trusting/acting > on your own instincts about your precious babies. > Susan ======================================== MESSAGE: A learning field theory??? AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Wednesday, 16 September 1998, at 5:21 p.m. This month, I've been reading a lot about gravitational fields, magnetic fields, and electric fields. (This is because my son's recent interest in physics has rubbed off on *me*.) And it occurred to me this afternoon, while reading Driving Force (a GREAT book, by the way -- it's a book about magnets, written for adults -- how cool is that?) that what we really have going for us, as homeschoolers, is a "learning field." I can almost see the little invisible force lines, sometimes. And the more I thought about it, the more I realized what a beautiful thing this is. So often around here, there's an electric excitement in the air! It's as if all the learning creates a charged atmosphere which influences EVERYONE in this house and ensures that the learning will just keep flowing, on and on and on. We're caught up in each other's learning fields, both literally and figuratively. When one of us is interested in something, it rubs off on everyone else a little bit...and sometimes a lot. The "invisibility" of it all is one of the interesting and mysterious things about it. It's almost as hard to explain or talk about a "learning field" as it is to talk about a "magnetic field." The EFFECTS are much easier to observe than the actual forces at work. But you can definitely FEEL it in the air! What I wish for every homeschooler is this magical feeling in the home. When it's operating at a high magnitude, it'll almost make the hair on your arms stand up! If I could describe the perfect lodestone that creates a field like this, I think it would come awfully close to "deschooling." Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Yes, he likes to read a good story or book (NT) AUTHOR: Tammy DATE: Wednesday, 16 September 1998, at 6:00 p.m. Response To: Does your son like to read? (NT) Author: Giovanna Date: Wednesday, 16 September 1998, at 5:19 a.m. ======================================== MESSAGE: Unschooling vs. not disappointing your parents. (long) AUTHOR: Serena DATE: Thursday, 17 September 1998, at 1:32 a.m. Hi... I'm (to everybody) what people call a success, the last person who would hate school. I finished at the top of the 5th form (Sophomore) class at 'one of the best state schools in New Zealand' (hahahaha), and as the result, skipped a year. Now I'm in seventh form, doing pretty well, considering all the teachers who didn't want me to choose the path (skipping a year) that I have been taking, saying 'you don't know how demanding seventh form is...' Yes, it is demanding, I am full-on, but there is an obvious thing, that I didn't see at that point where I freaked out at the prospect of a demanding seventh form year - if it is demanding for me, it would be demanding for everybody. But the thing is, I am actually working for the first time in my whole life, keeping to a regular study pattern etc. It is just that I have been blessed with a good short term memory, after 10 years of schooling at private and public schools, I developed the notion that learning is memorising, you memorise and you will learn. Anyway, (the preamble was too long), after nine months, I realised that schooling is a waste of time, I wonder how I never realised that before. My dilemma is that I rather die than to disappoint my parents - they have made so many sacrifices for me, and the only way I can reciprocate is by doing well at school. My parents are non-English speakers, although they are supportive about what I do generally, I have found it impossible to convince them about the politics of unschooling. We have unusually many teachers in the family (one of whom declared that half the teachers in the public schools should be kicked out, starting from himself, although he has heard, on rather many occasions, 'I want to be a teacher like Mr. Park when I grow up' from his students) I can't just throw them a copy of 'Teach Your Own'..... I have no intention of quitting school right now, I know that to get out of this stupid system, I first have to work extremely hard and go along well with the system. I hope I haven't given you the impression that I live to please my parents - in fact, I'm the rebellious one.... I have always been rebellious against the authority silently. That is another reason for me to get put of the system - if I get out of school, I wouldn't have anything to rebel against. It is funny how all the things I know either were not taught at school, or I could have taught myself at home. I learned to speak English by simply being at school, being the only non-English speaking kid among 30 pupils...... But not actually taught at school by certified teachers. Serena ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Unschooling vs. not disappointing your parents. (long) AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Thursday, 17 September 1998, at 5:29 a.m. Response To: Unschooling vs. not disappointing your parents. (long) Author: Serena Date: Thursday, 17 September 1998, at 1:32 a.m. Hi, Serena-- What an interesting post! I loved some of your observations. Like you, I was a "good student" who couldn't WAIT to get the whole thing (school, that is) over and done with. As I perceived the situation, the whole point of school was to finish as quickly as possible (while doing well, of course). I thought of it as a race. When I first began homeschooling my oldest child, who was 7 at the time, I still had that idea of a race to the finish line in my head. "This is great!" I thought. "She'll be through with all this school-stuff in no time, and then she can get on with living her life." One of the effects of my own deschooling process was the happy realization that living and learning can walk hand-in-hand. Once the word "school" is out of the picture, there's no race to be won! > It is just that > I have been blessed with a good short term memory, after > 10 years of schooling at private and public schools, I developed > the notion that learning is memorising, you memorise and > you will learn. Yes, I developed that notion, too. And "short term memory" is RIGHT! I memorized well enough to make A's in all sorts of things (French, physics, chemistry, trigonometry), without managing to actually LEARN very much in any of those courses. I don't know that this is all the school's fault, either. I suspect there were students in those courses with me who were learning quite a bit, but I had confused "making good grades" with "learning about the subject." This is one of the reasons I have never considered giving my children scores or grades, here at home. I don't care whether or not they memorize facts well enough to answer test questions correctly (I've always assumed they could do that, anyway). What I really wanted was for them to experience loving a subject so much that they'd learn everything they could about it, whether or not they'd be rewarded with a high test score at the end of the month. > Anyway, (the preamble was too long), after nine months, > I realised that schooling is a waste of time, I wonder how > I never realised that before. Isn't that interesting? One might expect a "challenging year" to provide more satisfaction, and yet what may have happened is that -- because school brings you so LITTLE satisfaction -- the necessity of working a little harder to get by made the whole experience seem not worth your trouble. Before, when you were able to coast along, it may have been easier for you to justify your boredom. ("Of course I'm bored -- it's all so easy.") But when you're working hard and you're STILL bored, you realize there's another problem at the root of things. > My dilemma is that I rather > die than to disappoint my parents - they have made so many > sacrifices for me, and the only way I can reciprocate is > by doing well at school. What do you plan to do once you're out of school? Have you already chosen a profession? Or have your parents chosen one for you? (*smile*) When I was in school, I never gave much thought to what would happen after I graduated from college. (Remember, I was still thinking in terms of reaching that finish line...) > I have > always been rebellious against the authority silently. That > is another reason for me to get put of the system - if I > get out of school, I wouldn't have anything to rebel against. I know so many young students like this! They work hard, do what they're "supposed" to do, and hate every minute of it, building up a load of resentment day by day. This is what Giovanna is talking about when she says that one of our purposes as homeschoolers should be to "take the complaining out of the heart." > It is funny how all the things I know either were not > taught at school, or I could have taught myself at home. Yup. I know. Hang in there, kiddo. The only advice I can offer you is this: Think long and hard about what you want to spend your adult life doing. What do you LOVE? What do you love so much, you could spend hours and hours and hours working hard at it...and not even feel tired? Once you figure that out, you'll have a better idea of how to make these next few years of school count for something. Plus, you might even end up with a better reason for doing well in school than just avoiding "disappointing your parents." Best of luck to you, Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Unschooling vs. not disappointing your parents. (long) AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Thursday, 17 September 1998, at 6:31 a.m. Response To: Unschooling vs. not disappointing your parents. (long) Author: Serena Date: Thursday, 17 September 1998, at 1:32 a.m. Serena: Honor your parents and finish what you have started. Make the BEST of it. From the sound of it you are extremely intelligent--not just "bookwise". You never, never know how these years of schooling are going to pay off in your future. Granted I don't agree with all of the things that "school" is about--that's why I've decided to keep my children home and not send them to public/private school. And by the way, I came to the United States at age 10 (fifth grade) not able to speak English at all. I learned to speak fluently in one year. No one had to systematically teach me how to speak, write or read it. Basically just the language immersion of being in a classroom was enough. By sixth grade I was in an "advanced" English class. I have no doubt in my mind that you will go on to contribute greatly to our world by finishing your studies and also because you have realized what the true essence of an education is all about. Thanks for stopping by and posting Serena! Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Living the language & learning to be curious AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Thursday, 17 September 1998, at 9:22 a.m. Response To: Re: Enjoying the Process--This is the MAIN GOAL! Don't lose sight of that! (read on) Author: Tammy Date: Tuesday, 15 September 1998, at 7:27 p.m. Hi, Tammy-- > My son hates english. He would rather > do "chores" than english. Any suggestions? I'm going to take a wild guess here. You've been using "English" textbooks, right? Well, there's your problem. In my humble opinion, there are few things in the world worse than the typical language arts text. Why? Well, they take ALL the fun out of reading and writing and language. You read a story -- and maybe it's even a good story -- but then you have to answer ridiculous questions like "What was Juanita's problem?" Oh, brother! And in the grammar sections, the example sentences are sooooo boring and dumb. In the writing sections, you're expected to write about some goofy topic you would never have come up with on your own. My advice is to forget all that and plunge right into literature. You said your son enjoys reading a good story. That's wonderful! You've already won half the battle, right there. Give him plenty of time to read. Read good books aloud to him. Encourage him to write, and if he doesn't like writing (usually interpreted by a child to mean HANDWRITING), it's OK to let him dictate stories to you. YOU can write those stories down, print them up, make them look impressive...and after a while, he will think of himself as a very clever fellow who writes wonderful stories. And one of these days, he'll surprise you by doing the writing himself! Give him good examples of writing to emulate, and his style will follow along naturally. Meanwhile, expose him to the things YOU love. YOUR favorite books, stories, poems, essays. Do this ever so casually. Recite a verse from a beloved poem in the car on the way to the soccer game (or wherever). Talk about your favorite Dickens characters. Tell him about the part you had in a school production of a Shakespeare play (or any other play or musical production). Make all these things a part of his daily vocabulary. Keep the dictionaries handy. Look things up with him. Play word games. Develop in him a love of language and words and the wonderful tricks they can do. Model curiosity about the origins of words. Say, "I wonder how this word got into our language?" and then look up its etymology in the dictionary. "Wow! Listen to this!" you'll say. "Who knew? The word *heckle* originally meant an instrument for cutting hemp!" Kids can be just as CURIOUS about language as they are about science or history or math. And in fact, about 95% of language IS history. Like everything else we've been talking about here, the goal is to have a child who loves the subject. If he learns to equate the subject with a boring, dreadful textbook...you're in danger of missing the goal. I hope this helps a little. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: How often does he read? And does he read for pure pleasure or only if its assigned? (NT) AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Thursday, 17 September 1998, at 9:35 a.m. Response To: Yes, he likes to read a good story or book (NT) Author: Tammy Date: Wednesday, 16 September 1998, at 6:00 p.m. > > ======================================== MESSAGE: When a child says they hate something, they usually mean they hate the "method" of the intruction AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Thursday, 17 September 1998, at 9:51 a.m. Response To: Re: Enjoying the Process--This is the MAIN GOAL! Don't lose sight of that! (read on) Author: Tammy Date: Tuesday, 15 September 1998, at 7:27 p.m. > My son hates english. He would rather > do "chores" than english. Any suggestions? Have you ever read about the Charlotte Mason approach? Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: reading for pleasure or assignment AUTHOR: Tammy DATE: Thursday, 17 September 1998, at 9:08 p.m. Response To: How often does he read? And does he read for pure pleasure or only if its assigned? (NT) Author: Giovanna Date: Thursday, 17 September 1998, at 9:35 a.m. For the most part he reads when it is assigned. Sometimes he will read for pleasure but its not often. When I said he likes to read, I guess I misunderstood. He likes to read an interesting story for school. As for him just getting a book and reading, its not very often. Tammy ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Living the language & learning to be curious AUTHOR: Tammy DATE: Thursday, 17 September 1998, at 9:48 p.m. Response To: Living the language & learning to be curious Author: Cerelle Date: Thursday, 17 September 1998, at 9:22 a.m. Cerelle, Good guess! Yes, we have been using a workbook this year and the past three years. I think this is a WONDERFUL suggestion. I really think my son will be interested and this will really help him. If you could give me advice on still teaching him nouns, pronouns, prep. phrases, diagramming, etc...or will we still need to use the textbooks for this? You may think I am "stupid" and may even wonder why I am hs my son if I have all these questions. Counting this yr, I have been hs for 4 yrs. I, as you can see, don't have alot of imagination. I try very hard to make things as interesting for my son as I can, but I just don't seem to have the knack for it. Thanks for everything. Tammy ======================================== MESSAGE: How will this affect...... AUTHOR: curious mom DATE: Thursday, 17 September 1998, at 10:01 p.m. As for deschooling\unschooling, how will this affect our children as far as "testing" is concerned? I have been reading these posts and I can't help but wonder this. Does the test even matter? I mean, do they have a big importance on our childrens future as far as getting into a college? Please, everyone, don't get me wrong. I think this is REALLY EXCELLENT. I am even doing this myself. Do children that have been "deschooled" do better or children that use the "textbooks" everyday. I know it depends on each individual child, but I mean as a whole. Can they still learn all the "required" stuff (if you will) by being deschooled? Again, please don't anyone take offense to my questions or post. This is something that was on my mind. God bless ======================================== MESSAGE: Parts of speech & the nuts-and-bolts AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Friday, 18 September 1998, at 8:49 a.m. Response To: Re: Living the language & learning to be curious Author: Tammy Date: Thursday, 17 September 1998, at 9:48 p.m. Tammy, I don't think you're stupid at all! My degree is in English, but I still have to brush up on the terminology sometimes, for my children's sake. How many of us use terms like "reflexive pronoun" in our everyday speech! LOL! But when you're watching a news program with your kids and the announcer says, "David and myself will be back, right after this word from our sponsor," it's helpful to be able to say something like, "Now you see, kids, that was an incorrect use of a reflexive pronoun. He SHOULD have said, 'David and I will be right back...'" And then you can go on to explain when reflexive pronouns like "myself" and "yourself" and "himself" are properly used. This is a very cynical thing to say, but there's a whole lot of "bad grammar" in use all around us every day, and we homeschooling moms can turn it to our advantage, believe it or not. This is what I love about Richard Lederer's books ("Anguished English" and others). Lederer uses hilarious examples of MISUSED English to teach his readers how the language is supposed to work. "Madlibs" are another tried-and-true way of teaching kids about parts of speech. And there's a Web site called "Wacky Tales" (the URL was posted on the Main Board not too long ago) that operates on the same principle. My kids have always loved these. There may come a day when your son will actually enjoy doing grammar exercises and diagramming sentences...but it probably won't happen until he's had a chance to enjoy and explore the language in a variety of other ways. I am not one who says you should never have a textbook or workbook in the house -- I think it's a good idea to keep them on hand as tools and references, and bring them out when the time is ripe. Still, there are other kinds of books about language that are even better. Check the library's 400 (Dewey decimal) section for *interesting* books about the English language. And that brings me to the most important part of this post. I've heard you say more than once that you don't consider yourself to be very creative or imaginative. Well, here's a deep, dark secret: I get most of my "great ideas" from OTHER PEOPLE! I'm a good-idea thief! I collect them like bottle caps. And one thing I've found is that the public library is brimming with good ideas for me to put into use. This stuff doesn't usually well up out of a vacuum... So go out and start stealing ideas! Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: How will this affect...... AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Friday, 18 September 1998, at 9:33 a.m. Response To: How will this affect...... Author: curious mom Date: Thursday, 17 September 1998, at 10:01 p.m. Believe me, this used to be a big concern of mine, too. Since we have never used a typically structured curriculum, I worried about how the kids would do when it came time to take college entrance exams. Of course, they wondered about it, too! About a year or so before Ariel took the SATs, she began looking at a variety of test-preparation aids. She wanted to know all the strategies, and most of all, she was curious about what to expect (never having taken a standardized test since 1st grade). She worked her way through several SAT workbooks and read a few books about test-taking. The idea here was to learn how to take a test and to be prepared for the kinds of questions that would appear on the SATs. In keeping with the philosophy we've been talking about here, she did all of this because SHE wanted to. She knew what kind of college she hoped to attend, and she knew she'd probably have to do well on the tests in order to be an eligible candidate. Meanwhile, I chewed my fingernails down to the quick! I know it sounds silly, but for me, this was the Moment of Truth. Would the education I had provided and encouraged really be able to get her where she wanted to go? Or would it backfire? If her scores weren't high enough, would she blame me all her life? Would it all turn out to have been a foolish, Quixotic dream? Not only did she score well; she scored much higher than any of us thought possible. (It was the math I was worried about, but even her verbal score exceeded my hopes and expectations.) It's important to point out that not every homeschooled child will need a sky-high score on these tests. It all depends on what they want to do. And as it turned out, even Ariel wound up not needing them, because her first-choice college was so alternative they didn't require SAT or ACT scores from their applicants. (How's that for perfect irony?) I hope this will put some of those fears to rest, at least. Of course, nothing is certain, and as you said, much of this is individual. Ariel MIGHT have scored even higher if we'd been using textbooks all those years, at least on the math portion. Even so, she scored in the top 15% of math scores from our state (and top 1% of verbal scores). That was plenty good enough for me... Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: BEN!!!! AUTHOR: Ben Stevens DATE: Friday, 18 September 1998, at 12:09 p.m. Response To: BEN!!!! Author: Giovanna Date: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 2:51 p.m. Hello again. I was surprised to see such quick responses to my post. > From a child/student point of view what kind of advice, > recommendations or tips would you give to parents that are > just pulling their child(ren) out of public/private school > and are starting to homeschool? More than anything else, you have to be psyched about it. You have to feel sure that you are ready to handle the kind of lifestyle changes that come with leaving the big machine. For one thing, a new homeschooler might find that he has more free time than he knows what to do with. On the other hand, a mother who has just become a teacher of two or three children might feel that she no longer has time to do anything else. If you do feel stressed by the change for whatever reason, it's probably best to tell yourself that as bad as things might seem, it's better than dealing with a school system. You tell yourselves, "We're homeschoolers, and we're not going back unless we want to!" > It seems like a lot of us start out trying to imitate > "public school" (probably for lack of knowledge > or lack of confidence) but slowly come to find out that > if left alone, our children can and will develop their interests. I can understand why people would imitate public school. Even I did to some small extent. Once I got the hang of homeschooling, though, I really did my own thing. The only relation that public school had with my education was the state requirements of "units" per year of each subject...but that was just a formality, really. As a homeschooler, I controlled how I studied each subject. So, wherever two subjects crossed over (like math and science) I would declare what I was studying as one or the other, or both, depending on what my written objective stated. Just make sure that the evaluator okays your work at the end of the year. (Your work has to match the objective at least to some extent.) Side note: Upon leaving public school (especially for 9-12 graders in Pennsylvania and some other states) I highly recommend that students enroll in some evaluation program which will serve to keep "official grades" which colleges will be able to understand. Colleges like to see lots of A's and B's. They have a hard time dealing with students, however bright they may be, who have no such written records. The one thing that makes homeschooling unquestionably superior to public schooling is the opportunity to allow students to go at their own pace and follow their own interests. If a child is motivated to learn, that child will learn; if not, that child will not learn, no matter how many goals, rewards, or punishments you may give. Public schools just don't understand that. Avoid deadlines, schedules, or even goal-setting. Goal-setting is usually viewed as positive, but I can tell you from my own experience that it often leads to anxiety about meeting the goals and then guilt for not meeting them. There's really no need to set goals. Besides, when it comes to learning, which in my opinion is impossible to quantify (I'm a heretic against the SAT), how can anyone set rational goals? Learning is a fluid process. All students' interest can, will, and probably should change with time. Why peg them? As for my own learning methods: I studied by myself, relying mostly on books, audio tapes, and PBS. Public school can't really top that. At the time, I didn't own a computer, and I did fine. These days, a networked computer can really help. For a number of reasons, I'd recommend that students under 12 or so should probably surf the web with their parents, but most teens, especially ones experienced at using the net, will probably work faster by themselves. One great application of the web is posting learning materials and information on the web. My little brothers post their studies on their web sites (they even design their own graphics). (You can see their homeschooling pages at http://members.tripod.com/~teulu/) A quick look through their pages will probably let you know what their favorite subjects are. The moral is: Don't follow the schools. Make your own paths. Education is better that way. Ben ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Grades & college AUTHOR: Ben Stevens DATE: Friday, 18 September 1998, at 12:21 p.m. Response To: Grades & college Author: Cerelle Date: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 4:03 p.m. > I *am* curious about the problems you had during the > college application process, regarding your lack of grades. > This turned out NOT to be a problem for my daughter, who > unschooled throughout high school and had no grades of any > kind...yet was accepted without hassle by all the colleges > she applied to. In her case, the SAT scores WERE enough, > coupled with her application essays and a written transcript > (which did not report grades, but simple descriptions of > the work she had done at home and in the real world). > I have two theories that might account for the difference > in your experience. > (1) If you're 20 now, you must have been applying to > colleges about 4 or 5 years ago. I wonder if college admissions > policies had loosened up a little by the time my daughter > applied in 1997. That's possible, but I doubt it. I live in the northeast, where I'm going to college. Institutions tend to be more conservative and by-the-book here. I don't know where your daughter goes to school, but I think that region would have more to do with it than time. > (2) Perhaps you were applying to different kinds of > colleges. My daughter was looking only at small, private, > liberal arts schools. Do you think this might be the difference? I applied to a variety of schools--big, small, traditional, liberal. The one I got into turns out to me the smallest and least liberal of the ones I applied to. I think they let me in because 1) it was easier to explain homeschooling to them face to face than by mail, and 2) they are quite desperate for students. I tried in my sophomore year to transfer to Cornell, but was rejected with a form letter ("Sorry...We don't have enough room..."). > I'm looking forward to hearing more about your college > application process and problems. What exactly did they > tell you about their requirements for homeschooled applicants? One turned me down flat; one asked for an entire portfolio of my "high-school" work; one "lost" my application; and the local one, where I could speak with someone face to face, let me in. U Penn told me that as a homeschooler, I had to be taught by a certified teacher. (Not according to PA law!) So, I just forgot about them. It's all just history to me. I can't go back and change any of it. The best I can do is advise people to avoid what happened to me. As I have said before, it's best if grades 9-12 are *well documented*, specifically by some recognized official organization which gives out "grades" that are easy for college admissions boards to digest. Basically, if you make it easier on them, it will be easier for you to get into college. Ben ======================================== MESSAGE: Testing AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Friday, 18 September 1998, at 2:06 p.m. Response To: How will this affect...... Author: curious mom Date: Thursday, 17 September 1998, at 10:01 p.m. Does your state require testing? In Florida, where I live, it's only but one OPTION of the ways we can have our children evaluated. I think that if your child is college bound the EXPERIENCE of taking a test is beneficial during the high school years. But like Cerelle said there are many tools and books that will help you take these type of tests. If I had a college bound child I would have him/her go thru the testing procedure just so that he would know what it was like---but that would be my only motivation. I know fully well where my children are excelling and where they are not doing as well. I don't need to test them to know that. I remember standardized tests very well---like it was yesterday. Well, almost! (grin) The Social Studies part entailed reading a a couple of paragraphs and then completing some multiple choice questions about what I had read. I often wondered how that accurately measured my knowledge of "Social Studies?" Kind of silly! Basically if I could read and answer questions related to what I read then I got a high score in social Studies. There is a thread on this board (way down) that gets into testing. Keep reading and you'll find it. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Grades & college AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Friday, 18 September 1998, at 2:53 p.m. Response To: Re: Grades & college Author: Ben Stevens Date: Friday, 18 September 1998, at 12:21 p.m. Ben, thanks for the wonderful posts you've written here. After reading your response to my question about grades, I'm going to go with my original hunch that college admissions policies HAVE loosened up since you applied 4 years ago. All the schools my daughter applied to were in New England (Vermont, Massachusetts, New York), and again, lack of grades did not prove to be a problem for her. In fact, Hampshire College (her top pick of the crop) didn't even require SAT scores. One thing we didn't investigate was state schools. It seems to me that they are more likely to be sticklers for grades and other traditional means of documentation. As you mentioned, the smaller schools find it easier to evaluate a student on the basis of individual merit (rather than statistical data, such as grades and test scores). I think that as more and more homeschooled students enter college and excel academically, colleges will be modifying their admissions requirements to better accommodate homeschooled and unschooled applicants. Thanks again for taking the time to share your experiences with other homeschoolers and their parents! Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: A great big "THANKS" AUTHOR: Tammy DATE: Friday, 18 September 1998, at 8:32 p.m. Response To: Parts of speech & the nuts-and-bolts Author: Cerelle Date: Friday, 18 September 1998, at 8:49 a.m. Cerelle, Thank you for all your help and the "vote of confidence". I will put my "imagination" to use and start "stealing ideas" (grin). Again, thank you so much for everything. This board, and all those who post here, has been a GREAT HELP AND INSPIRATION to me. I have a cousin that hs herself (she is in high school) and I have told her about the ideas that I have got from all the WONDERFUL people here on this site. Also, I will share this with my sister (hs her son). God bless you all Tammy ======================================== MESSAGE: Alot off my mind AUTHOR: Curious mom DATE: Friday, 18 September 1998, at 8:44 p.m. Response To: Testing Author: Giovanna Date: Friday, 18 September 1998, at 2:06 p.m. I live in TN. The county school system requires testing in 2,5,7,and 9th grades. I am enrolled thru a christian satallite school. They test every year. Although this testing doesn't affect my hs my son thru this school, I was concerned.(in other words, no matter what his test results are, I can still hs) I had no idea that he could read books on the testing required to get into college. (maybe this is because he is only in the 6th grade now) I know I (we) have a long time to go before we have to worry about this but as I always say "why wait until the last minute." My husband says that I worry too much about everything anyway. Thanks for the information Cerelle and Giovanna. Believe me, this does take alot of worry off my mind. Curious mom ======================================== MESSAGE: deschool AUTHOR: Sue DATE: Saturday, 19 September 1998, at 2:14 a.m. We homeschooled for two years when we lived in a remote area four years ago. We used Abeka correspondence and set up a classroom with boards, teacher and student desks, etc. After burn out, I put the children back into school, public and private[same difference, in my opinion.] Now, we're back homeschooling and I can't say we've really got it all together. We're running on two cylinders now [math and language] and a third[history] is sputtering to start up. HOWEVER, I did learn one thing last year. We started school around the dining table with 4 children aged 4 to 16 promptly at 8:30 a.m. on Sept. 3 with a prayer and the pledge of alligience. After about a week of this structure, it fell apart. All because of mom. My children LIKE structure. I can't seem to manage it. But, we had spent several years moving annually, and several years overly involved in the extracurricular: mom worked full-time, dd on high school swim team and band, very active and time consuming church involvement, financial stresses and medical problems and lots of time driving around had worn me completely out. I'm a praying person, so I used that option and felt led to let go. I just let the kids do whatever they wanted for a couple of months. THey watched more tv than ever in their lives[only approved shows & videos, though]. I rested. Put my house together [we had just moved in late August.] and researched homeschool curriculum some more. [I didn't like our new $$$$ math program at all.] Through my searching, and somewhat of freefall time, I landed in the big puffy world of unschooling with John Holt and friends. It's a nice world and it gave me some validity and even some perspective. I don't think we'll completely unschool. But I do know we needed about a year to detox from school life. We needed to rest and heal before we could get up and move on. We are just now rousing and I think it has truly been worthwhile. I'm better at this. One child has certainly benefitted from our backing off and is now reading when it was a real problem before. ANother is learning to learn on her own, rather than waiting obediently to be told what to learn. If you have the option, I'd recommend everyone taking a semester off after public school to detox and adjust to everybody being at home. MOst of us have never learned this kind of socialization: learning to live with the same people day in and day out. Working and playing with the same persons who are different from ourselves and have different interests, abilities and weaknesses. Learning to accomodate and draw upon the others' strengths. And being sensitive and gentle with their weaknesses. Learning to work, live and play with and love others who are not like me is I think the best kind of socialization a child can learn. It's very early in the A.M., and I'm not used to writing in one long stream like this, without being able to look back easily, so I know this is rambling. But, I urge anyone to take time to detox and deschool before setting your course in homeschooling. ======================================== MESSAGE: Structure AUTHOR: sharon DATE: Saturday, 19 September 1998, at 1:08 p.m. Yesterday the kids had gathered at the dinning room table and were finishing some of their work. For about a half an hour I hear waves of uprorious laughter....I unplugged with what I was doing to go see what was so funny. They were recounting things from government school and the school bus and they saw the humor of a lot with hindsight.....which was not so humorous at the time. I listened for a while and made the remark that they would not be able to sit during a school day at government school and indulge in laughter....and it would probably really not be "cool" be with a younger sibling enjoying one another either...according to the established pecking order. The 14 yod remarked that she did miss "how" things were done in govmt. school, but I reminded her that she was told what to do - when to do it - how to do it - and when not to do it...I considered it unusual that she, being the kind of person that she is, would really be satisfied not being able to think for herself...and persue those things that she had a heart for. I asked her if she missed "gang showers" at the PE class, along with a few other notable "unfavorites". I asked her what her interests were, again, and as she was listing them, asked if she thought she would have the freedom to go after those things at the local middle-school...like she is able to here. While she was thinking about a response I saw, for the first time, a light go on within...and all she did was nod. I consider this a major milestone in my home and I wanted to share it with you all. I felt like doing a jig....but refrained, lest the lo impact of the moment be lost. YYYEEEEEESSSSSSS! It's happening. Sharon ======================================== MESSAGE: Regrouping AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Saturday, 19 September 1998, at 2:19 p.m. Response To: deschool Author: Sue Date: Saturday, 19 September 1998, at 2:14 a.m. Sue-- > We're running on two cylinders now [math and language] > and a third[history] is sputtering to start up. I love the way you put this -- how funny! Chances are good that when that "history cylinder" gets going, it'll chug along so fast that math and language will have to run to catch up! > My children LIKE structure. I can't seem to manage it. Ah, well -- who was having to do all the work to keep that structure in place? MOM, of course. Who was exercising all the discipline? MOM! Who was free to go with the flow (or not, depending)? The kids. There are going to be different opinions about this, naturally, but we're not necessarily teaching the kids much about self-discipline as long WE'RE the one seeing to it that everyone stays on track. The question really is: Do the kids like structure so much that THEY'LL create some structure for themselves? > Through my searching, and somewhat of freefall time, I landed > in the big puffy world of unschooling with John Holt and > friends. It's a nice world and it gave me some validity > and even some perspective. I don't think we'll completely > unschool. But I do know we needed about a year to detox > from school life. We needed to rest and heal before we could > get up and move on. We are just now rousing and I think > it has truly been worthwhile. This is such a great point that you've made. Sometimes it's easier to regroup and establish some structure that everyone can live with...after a good rest and some "down time." Even families that definitely prefer a little structure and routine in their academic endeavors can profit from a deschooling experience. It gives everyone time to figure out where they really want to go! Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Neat story Sharon! LOVE IT! (NT) AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Saturday, 19 September 1998, at 9:08 p.m. Response To: Structure Author: sharon Date: Saturday, 19 September 1998, at 1:08 p.m. > Yesterday the kids had gathered at the dinning room > table and were finishing some of their work. For about a > half an hour I hear waves of uprorious laughter....I unplugged > with what I was doing to go see what was so funny. They > were recounting things from government school and the school > bus and they saw the humor of a lot with hindsight.....which > was not so humorous at the time. I listened for a while > and made the remark that they would not be able to sit during > a school day at government school and indulge in laughter....and > it would probably really not be "cool" be with > a younger sibling enjoying one another either...according > to the established pecking order. The 14 yod remarked that > she did miss "how" things were done in govmt. > school, but I reminded her that she was told what to do > - when to do it - how to do it - and when not to do it...I > considered it unusual that she, being the kind of person > that she is, would really be satisfied not being able to > think for herself...and persue those things that she had > a heart for. I asked her if she missed "gang showers" > at the PE class, along with a few other notable "unfavorites". > I asked her what her interests were, again, and as she was > listing them, asked if she thought she would have the freedom > to go after those things at the local middle-school...like > she is able to here. While she was thinking about a response > I saw, for the first time, a light go on within...and all > she did was nod. I consider this a major milestone in my > home and I wanted to share it with you all. I felt like > doing a jig....but refrained, lest the lo impact of the > moment be lost. YYYEEEEEESSSSSSS! It's happening. Sharon > ======================================== MESSAGE: The best part of homeschooling, in my opinion.... AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Saturday, 19 September 1998, at 9:19 p.m. Response To: deschool Author: Sue Date: Saturday, 19 September 1998, at 2:14 a.m. ...IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU WROTE HERE: > MOst of us have never > learned this kind of socialization: learning to live with > the same people day in and day out. Working and playing > with the same persons who are different from ourselves and > have different interests, abilities and weaknesses. Learning > to accomodate and draw upon the others' strengths. And being > sensitive and gentle with their weaknesses. Learning to > work, live and play with and love others who are not like > me is I think the best kind of socialization a child can > learn. Some would argue that public school does provide children this type of socialization but I disagree. If you can learn to love your siblings unconditionally then you can love anyone!!! At home there is nowhere to go to run away from an argument. You live with the person so it has to be resolved! As far as I'm concerned this is probably the biggest blessing we've received from home education. My children LOVE each other and I know that if they would have gone their separate ways due to public school life their relationship would be different now. By the way, have you ever read THE SOCIALIZATION TRAP by Rick Boyer? GREAT BOOK! Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Don't forget that your child can take those SAT's over and over and only send the top set of scores to the colleges of choice! So why not start 'em taking practice tests in grade 9? (nt) AUTHOR: JeanL DATE: Saturday, 19 September 1998, at 9:27 p.m. Response To: How will this affect...... Author: curious mom Date: Thursday, 17 September 1998, at 10:01 p.m. ======================================== MESSAGE: Those happy moments! AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Saturday, 19 September 1998, at 10:54 p.m. Response To: Structure Author: sharon Date: Saturday, 19 September 1998, at 1:08 p.m. Hi, Sharon-- May you have many more moments like that one! I have a fiercely independent one who, although she's never been in school, has always kind of LIKED sitting down with a workbook and doing math or grammar exercises. Of course, this isn't something she's ever wanted to do every day, and she usually doesn't want much help from me, either -- thank you very much! Generally speaking, her scholastic attitude is, "Please get out of my way and let me learn this on my own." One of my happiest moments was when she came to me last year and said, "You know, I think I'd like your help. I want to learn French and algebra FAST -- can we do it together?" It's strange what makes us moms happy sometimes! :-D Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: This is a new way of life AUTHOR: Nichole DATE: Sunday, 20 September 1998, at 10:27 a.m. Hello everyone, I am new here, thanks to my special friend Giovanna! I have been homeschooling for a couple of years, each year has been less and less like "the school". I actually started out K5 with a kid desk, large dry erase board mounted on the wall and the alphabet around the top of the room! LOL! I love this board and all the inspiration to deschool and enjoy life! Giovanna's comment on the baby learning to walk, really helped me! It's true, we don't go get a curriculum to teach them! It is natural, and up till now it has been hard for me to relax with the traditional school back ground I am use to. I won't even let myself look at the books that say what your child should know by grade. That puts me in bondage to undo pressure!! As I know well, they don't need to know all that, and forced to memorize it short term for a test will soon be forgotten, and would probably ruin their love of learning. I feel so free since I have been De-schooling! I have been reading about Charolette Mason's way, Wisdom's Way of Learning,(lifesyle of learning) and these have helped me so much! I am really beginning to enjoy life now! My mind is being renewed with a better way for helping my children learn what is important and what they love. I took the t.v. out of the house, and I have experienced total freedom! Freedom to live, and to learn in a natural and productive way, for my children and me! I am finally learning to live life the way I always dreamed of. I am just starting, I have alot to learn, but I am finally seeing a new future with real promise for the kids. I am so thankful to get to read all these posts, and have people support me! I have really learned alot here and am working on total de-junking, I mean de-schooling! Thank you from the bottom of my heart from me, and my chidren,I know they will have happier lives of learning now! Nichole ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Heartily Agree with this one!! AUTHOR: Kari C DATE: Monday, 21 September 1998, at 8:21 p.m. Response To: The best part of homeschooling, in my opinion.... Author: Giovanna Date: Saturday, 19 September 1998, at 9:19 p.m. I have to agree here. I heard Mr Boyer speak at the homeschool conference I attened this summer and he was wonderful. He spoke on the very topic entitled the Socialization Trap and I LOVED it. Really helped to dispel any concerns I had. He was a wonderful speaker and his keynote address on Saturday Night at the conferenc had me in tears. His parting words were for parents when he said of homeschool parents..."today you rock the cradle, Tomorrow THEY rock the world!" What a wonderful encouraging person.....gives me chills even now. Would highly recommend any of his books. Blessings, Kari C. ======================================== MESSAGE: What exactly is deschooling? AUTHOR: Amy H. DATE: Tuesday, 22 September 1998, at 4:12 p.m. Hi, all! Pardon my ignorance, but I am new to homeschooling and this is my first time lighting upon this board. Would someone please enlighten me with what deschooling is? Is it basically unschooling? I long to be more relaxed in my homeschooling (this is year 2), but I am such a structured person and I want to make sure my children have an age-appropriate education. We are currently using Sonlight and I really like it, but I am a slave to the Teacher's Manual. Last year I burned out by Christmas. I am trying to be more flexible this year (in fact, that's my one major goal), but I am so frightened that I won't be giving my children a good education. Please, someone enlighten me! ======================================== MESSAGE: Welcome & keep reading...it's all here AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Tuesday, 22 September 1998, at 5:56 p.m. Response To: What exactly is deschooling? Author: Amy H. Date: Tuesday, 22 September 1998, at 4:12 p.m. Hi, Amy-- You asked, "Would someone please enlighten me with what deschooling is?" Well, you've come to the right place! That's what this board is all about this month...answering that question and discussing it in depth. If you'll scroll down a little farther, you'll find several attempts to define "deschooling" and many good conversations about various homeschoolers' efforts to (1) get away from the traditional methods used in schools, and/or (2) undo the harm done to their children (or themselves) in past school experiences. As for unschooling -- that, too, is discussed in many of the posts here. Many of the distinctions are really just a matter of semantics. But what we're basically talking about is an approach to life and education that bears little resemblance to the typical school approach. I hope you'll take the time to read this rather extended "conversation" and then let us know what you think! By the way, at the end of the month these posts will be permanently archived at the Kaleidoscapes site, so if you don't have time to read them all now, you can come back any time and read the ones you didn't get around to. Isn't that neat? Happy reading! Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Wisdom's Way of Learning AUTHOR: Debbie K. DATE: Tuesday, 22 September 1998, at 8:19 p.m. Response To: More about Enjoying the Process..why the PROCESS is more important than the CONTENT Author: Giovanna Date: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 5:40 a.m. > The following is a quote from the book "WISDOM'S > WAY OF LEARNING" by Marilyn Howshall. This book changed > my life and truly sent me on a lifetime path to DESCHOOLING. This book has been mentioned a couple of times, and I have looked at several different libraries, amazon.com, and other resources, and I can't find it...Can you tell me where I might find this book? Thanks! ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Wisdom's Way of Learning AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Tuesday, 22 September 1998, at 8:35 p.m. Response To: Re: Wisdom's Way of Learning Author: Debbie K. Date: Tuesday, 22 September 1998, at 8:19 p.m. > > This book has been mentioned a couple of times, and > I have looked at several different libraries, amazon.com, > and other resources, and I can't find it...Can you tell > me where I might find this book? Thanks! I LOVE THIS BOOK! You can get it from the Elijah Co. http://www.elijahco.com It is pricey. $40. It's the best $40 I've ever invested on any homeschooling resource. This book literally saved me hundreds of dollars in curriculum. And you know, my hubby is finishing up graduate school and his textbooks cost anywhere from $50-$80 so I didn't feel guilty at all about buying it. It was a lifetime investment! Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: The best part of homeschooling, in my opinion.... AUTHOR: Sue DATE: Wednesday, 23 September 1998, at 6:47 a.m. Response To: The best part of homeschooling, in my opinion.... Author: Giovanna Date: Saturday, 19 September 1998, at 9:19 p.m. > ...IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU WROTE HERE: > Some would argue that public school does provide children > this type of socialization but I disagree. If you can learn > to love your siblings unconditionally then you can love > anyone!!! At home there is nowhere to go to run away from > an argument. You live with the person so it has to be resolved! > > As far as I'm concerned this is probably the biggest > blessing we've received from home education. My children > LOVE each other and I know that if they would have gone > their separate ways due to public school life their relationship > would be different now. > By the way, have you ever read THE SOCIALIZATION TRAP > by Rick Boyer? > GREAT BOOK! > Giovanna Thanks for the dittos. I've never read or heard of Rick Boyer, but I'll keep my eyes open. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: How we're deschooling AUTHOR: Deb DATE: Wednesday, 23 September 1998, at 10:29 a.m. Response To: Re: How we're deschooling Author: Summer Date: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 8:42 p.m. > > So, again, hoping not to sound "silly" or > "confused", but I can actually do this kind of > things with my son instead of having to "go by the > books" all the time? We don't have to get up every > morning and get out the english, math, science, spelling, > etc... (books). We can use educational games and field trips, > reading stories out loud and so forth? WOW! What about giving > weekly tests and such? I hope I have the right idea because > this will be a big change for both my son and myself. Over > the last year, he has really got "burnt out" with > the books. I try to make it as interesting as possible for > him but it is hard sometimes. I have to admit, I get "burnt > out" too. I have been hs for 4 yrs (counting this year). > I hate to admit it but I don't seem to have the knack for > coming up with interesting ways to hs. I have always "used > the books" everyday. I am afraid if I don't "go > by the books" I will hurt my son. I guess I am just > a "boring chicken". Anyway, please let me know > if I have the right idea about deschooling/unschooling. > I hope so because this will help both my son and myself > for a little while. Also, this will be something I can tell > my sister about. She hs her son too and like me, she drags > out the books daily. Thanks in advance to all. > Summer ------------------------------------------------- I have been home schooling going on 4 yrs. and was hating it as much as my son was. The structure was driving both of us nuts. Finally, I started using the educational channels, learning board games, computer learning games, lot's of field trips, discussions...before we both realized it we were having a ball and learning a lot. Now we enjoy everyday whether we are taking a nature walk or watching a show on the history channel or playing a geography game online. PS: I have lots of online educational resources that make learning fun if anyone is interested. dccd3@webtv.net....Deb ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Living the language & learning to be curious AUTHOR: Lynette DATE: Wednesday, 23 September 1998, at 11:12 a.m. Response To: Living the language & learning to be curious Author: Cerelle Date: Thursday, 17 September 1998, at 9:22 a.m. Hi Cerelle (and everyone), My 6 yo dd and 8 yo ds play language games in the car, and the games often sneak up on us when we're not "doing" school. They will even ask me, just in the course of normal conversation, or when we're watching a movie, or the news -- "What does _____ (fill in the blank) mean?" Then I'll tell them, or if I don't know, we'll find out. Vocabulary learned-as-we-go sticks with them more quickly than those learned in a book. Two of my favorite little stories-- My daughter, after hearing an uncle make a disparaging remark about an ethnic group, put her hand on one hip and say, "Uncle Billy, you're culturally biased!" Then, my son and I once saw a woman wearing her bikini bathing suit in a grocery store and he said that it was "inappropriate". However, if I were to sit down with my son and tell him "we're going to learn THESE words today" he'd sigh and groan and say "it's too hard". I've also started to pay attention to my own language patterns, and not "dumb down" conversations with my kids. Just my little contribution, Lynette 8-) ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: How we're deschooling AUTHOR: Debbie K. DATE: Wednesday, 23 September 1998, at 8:17 p.m. Response To: Re: How we're deschooling Author: Summer Date: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 8:42 p.m. I posted this to our e-mail list today, but since I've been following this topic all month, I thought I'd share my latest personal triumph with this group as well: Although we have really relaxed in our approach to "school" (I don't even like to use that word anymore---), I'm still learning how *not* to be a slave to even a math textbook. I was so proud of myself 'cuz I haven't been making Billy & Michael (they are 8 yo twins) do every last blasted problem on those workbook pages...been integrating some other stuff for reinforcement. But, today, I feel I've taken another giant step! The last week or so, they have been doing exercises which ask them which units were smaller/larger. For example: going from pints to quarts is going from smaller to larger; yards to feet was larger to smaller; etc. Seemed rather silly, but I made sure the boys had a grasp on what they were asking, and I think they thought it was superfluous, but they passified me and did the exercises. Then today, they were to do some problems converting x-pints to ? quarts; x-yards to ? feet. (Ironically, Michael and I just did this a couple of days ago when a cooking question came up). Of course, they were supposed to go through a series of "steps" to arrive at the answer, complete with "special number" and all. Billy (and later Michael) came to me for help in completing all of the steps "required" to arrive at the answer, but had already filled in the answers to all the problems (and they were right)! Now, this is what I'm excited about: A year ago, I would have insisted that he learn and document all of the "required steps" to arrive at the answer, even if he was already able to figure out the answer on his own....BUT I was actually OKAY with not *making* them do all of the "steps." It may sound utterly silly that I'm excited about this, but, for me, this is new territory! LOL! A few of the chains of feeling like we have to do it exactly like "the book", fell off today....(Too bad there's lots more chains where that came from!!). Thanks for letting me share! And thank you to all who have been so encouraging by sharing their insights, advice, and stories! Debbie K. (who's feeling a little freer today!) ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Thanks for sharing your story! Please keep in touch! (NT) AUTHOR: Susan DATE: Wednesday, 23 September 1998, at 8:22 p.m. Response To: Thanks for sharing your story! Please keep in touch! (NT) Author: Giovanna Date: Wednesday, 16 September 1998, at 1:26 p.m. Hello Everyone! I must say I've enjoyed Ben's posts--thanks, Ben! Well...I don't know if it's the herbal capsules, the even more severe controlling of diet (NO sugar, dyes, or simple carbs), tincture of time or a little of all--but we had a GREAT day today, at last! Happy attitude, doing chores well and completely without being hounded, entertaining himself much of the day without hogging my consciousness and space. Rest assured I rewarded this behavior in every way available to me! We'll see how many such days we have......two or three a week would change my life. Just wanted to share the happy update. Susan ======================================== MESSAGE: Lee and Giovanna sent me here!:-) AUTHOR: Marla DATE: Thursday, 24 September 1998, at 8:35 a.m. I recently placed a post on the main board thinking it was this board. Thanks to Lee and Giovanna I know now where to ask my questions. Here goes. > Does everyone that unschools run around a lot? I don't want to insult anyone by using the term run around but the only two things close to our house is AWANA (5 min) and a library (2 blocks). We are a great contributor to our library's circulation! > What about the 3 R's? > What about structure? I need things written out or they don't seem to get done. I plan my week on Sunday night. > What about your records for the state.In Missouri we are required to have 1,000 educational hrs in per year. We are not required to turn them in but keep them in case someone turns us in. We have the burden of proof, not the state. I have been reading everything I can get a hold of (ie. Wisdoms Way of Learning, Home Education Magazine (library), on order The Unschooling Handbook, and I going to look for John Holt books, and also any posts on the subject). Giovanna suggested that maybe I need deschooled. I think I agree and for a couple of years have felt a pull toward it and each year we let go in another area. My 10yo son doesn't seem to have any drive or ambition. When he wants to know something and I don't know the answer and suggest we find it he says no he doesn't care that much. Its very frustrating. This summer we went to the St. Louis Science Center he enjoyed some of the hands on things but could care less about how they worked. Although it just dawned on me this is my attitude toward the computer. Maybe he gets it from me. Also he keeps reading the same Berinstine(sp?) Bear chapter books over and over again to where he doesn't really enjoy them anymore, but will not try something new. My husband says he supports us in hs but is not to involved in it himself. I have no clue what he will say to my latest thoughts. I'm sorry I rambled on so long. I hope you all can help me understand more about where I feel the Lord leading me but I'm not sure how to get there. I am praying about this throughout the day. Plus I honestly think I fear this to some extent. You know how sometimes we feer the unknown simply because it is unknown. Thanks again for your precious time. In Christ Marla ======================================== MESSAGE: I forgot to say we have aways hs. (nt) AUTHOR: Marla DATE: Thursday, 24 September 1998, at 8:39 a.m. Response To: Lee and Giovanna sent me here!:-) Author: Marla Date: Thursday, 24 September 1998, at 8:35 a.m. > I recently placed a post on the main board thinking > it was this board. Thanks to Lee and Giovanna I know now > where to ask my questions. Here goes. ======================================== MESSAGE: I didn't know this place was here... AUTHOR: Kim DATE: Thursday, 24 September 1998, at 12:22 p.m. Right now- I've got the short attention span leading the no attention span (my 8 yo) She "just wants to colour"... The only problem is math. She has a lot of natural talent, but is moving BACKWARDS in it... probably from the lack of practice in it... I admit to letting it slide over the summer. I admit to being a decidedly unschool mom... but some days I think *I* lack the discipline and organization... and EVERYTHING to it to continue... I can make lesson plans... and units and on and on... but - so ... I need advice !! ======================================== MESSAGE: And I just read Ben's story... WAAAAY down there... It gives me hope for the future :-) nt AUTHOR: Kim DATE: Thursday, 24 September 1998, at 12:39 p.m. 8-) ======================================== MESSAGE: Welcome! AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Thursday, 24 September 1998, at 1:57 p.m. Response To: Lee and Giovanna sent me here!:-) Author: Marla Date: Thursday, 24 September 1998, at 8:35 a.m. >Does everyone that unschools run around a lot? Like I posted on the MAIN BOARD, I do not like to do a lot of running around. My children are in 4H but that only meets twice a month, less than 10 minutes away and we are involved in church activities. We pretty much like to stay home and have fun at home. > I don't want to insult anyone by using the term run around but the >only two >things close to our house is AWANA (5 min) and a library (2 blocks). >We are a great contributor to our library's circulation! And that's fine. As far as I'm concerned you do not need to be out of your house all the time to encourage your children in their interests. > What about the 3 R's? Tell us what you are doing now as far as the 3 R's. > What about structure? I need things written out or they don't seem >to get done. I plan my week on Sunday night. That's fine too. Some of us need to make a list in order to get things accomplished. The point of DESCHOOLING is to take "school" out of your life and to encourage a more natural way of learning. It doesn't mean that you throw structure out the window. If you have goals for your children--that is structure. If you, however, have a complete academic agenda laid out for the week then you are not giving your children the freedom to pursue their own interests and their own education. You are basically just doing what public/private schools do. You are spoon feeding your children their education. They are not acquiring it on their own. In order to DESCHOOL you need to be flexible and allow your children to lead in their own education as much as possible. Are you read to throw out the window your best made plans if your children decide they want to read up on castles or search the web for some good websites about knights? > What about your records for the state.In Missouri we are required to >have 1,000 educational hrs in per year. We are not >required to turn them in but keep them in case someone turns us in. >We have the burden of proof, not the state. That's not a problem. You just need to document everything as part of your educational plan. Those instructional hours can include the AWANAS, it can include a nature walk around your neighborhood, it can include a PBS show. > I have been >reading everything I can get a hold of (ie. Wisdoms Way of Learning, >Home Education Magazine (library), on order The >Unschooling Handbook, and I going to look for John Holt books, and >also any posts on the subject). Giovanna suggested that >maybe I need deschooled. I think I agree and for a couple of years >have felt a pull toward it and each year we let go in another >area. I think you are on the right track with these books--especially Wisdom's Way of Learning. That book, in my opinion, is the ultimate DESCHOOLING book! :-) YOUR deschooling will start by getting "educated" on what true, natural learning should be like. These books will help you. >My 10yo son doesn't seem to have any drive or ambition. When he wants >to know something and I don't know the answer >and suggest we find it he says no he doesn't care that much. I really encourage you to start reading the posts on this bulletin board. There are several moms that have been where you are with your son right now and they have posted their experiences here. Boredom is a disease of the soul! There is a way to cure this though but it takes time and patience. GiovannaBack to the TopBack to the Digest Index