Digests from the KALEIDOSCAPES MONTHLY TOPIC
(HOMESCHOOLING) DISCUSSION BOARD
These are the original digests from Kaleidoscapes' MONTHLY TOPIC discussion boards.
They were hosted by two amazing gals: Giovanna Gomez and Cerelle Woods Simmons.
The boards are no longer available (thus, links to them won't work); you can, however, still
find many of the same wonderful folks who posted on the boards at Network 54.
Finally, there are no banners or pop-up ads throughout these digests.
Hopefully you will consider shopping through our Amazon links occasionally.
(Thanks!)Back to the Digest Index
Deschooling Digest (part 2)
======================================== MESSAGE: Is deschooling for everyone? (long) AUTHOR: Ann O. DATE: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 8:16 a.m. Is deschooling the "homeschooling way"? When is traditional homeschooling O.K.? I feel as if I'm the only one who doesn't have a problem with it. Even though this is my first year homeschooling, I know what I have in store for me: possiblity of burn-out, motivation problems, etc. But, when I first started setting up for homeschooling, my daughter, who was psed through 2nd, started suggesting things that she had done in ps, such as rewards, bulletin boards, time schedule, special dress-up days, etc. I had no problem with this. We don't have a problem with ps, except that their days are wasted with time-filling nonsense activities. So, we started school on Monday, and everything is going just as planned, except that we're not taking the full 15-30 minutes in each subject, which is really nice. She knows the material presented in the books right now. According to the schedule I made, we should finish school at 1:30 each day, but Monday and Tuesday were done at noon, and today was done at 10:30. (We start around 9.) Yes, we have a "classroom" and a dry-erase board and a traditional curriculum. (A Beka) Has anyone ever had the attitude that I have, convinced that this is the right method for you, then unforseen circumstances changed the whole scenario? ======================================== MESSAGE: No hard and fast rules! AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 8:41 a.m. Response To: Is deschooling for everyone? (long) Author: Ann O. Date: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 8:16 a.m. Hi, Ann-- > Is deschooling the "homeschooling way"? When > is traditional homeschooling O.K.? It's OK anytime you're happy with it and everything is going well! I mean, look at all the ps kids who are happy as clams! For Pete's sake, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. There's nothing worse than twisting yourself out of shape to try to fit someone else's standard of how things ought to be done. The reason unschoolers/deschoolers have to shout so loud sometimes is that there's a huge load of tradition and "shoulds" out there that tend to intimidate those for whom the traditional way ISN'T working. > I feel as if I'm the > only one who doesn't have a problem with it. Even though > this is my first year homeschooling, I know what I have > in store for me: possiblity of burn-out, motivation problems, > etc. Worry about that if and when it happens, but "don't borrow trouble from tomorrow" is what I always say. If you DO run into some of those problems, you'll know that others have, too, and you'll have some tools in your bag-o'-tricks for dealing with them as they come up. > But, when I first started setting up for homeschooling, > my daughter, who was psed through 2nd, started suggesting > things that she had done in ps, such as rewards, bulletin > boards, time schedule, special dress-up days, etc. Sure. That's what she's accustomed to, and anything that makes the two of you feel comfortable and work well together is just great. > I had > no problem with this. We don't have a problem with ps, except > that their days are wasted with time-filling nonsense activities. There's a big difference between kids who have been taken out of school because homeschooling seemed even more attractive...and kids who hated school SO MUCH that homeschooling seemed like the only alternative. Big difference in attitude, big difference in experience. The kids who had really painful school experiences may need something radically different from what school could offer them. In deschooling discussions, we're often speaking to the parents of THOSE kids. (I had one, so I know about this.) > So, we started school on Monday, and everything is > going just as planned, except that we're not taking the > full 15-30 minutes in each subject, which is really nice. > She knows the material presented in the books right now. > According to the schedule I made, we should finish school > at 1:30 each day, but Monday and Tuesday were done at noon, > and today was done at 10:30. (We start around 9.) Then you keep right on with that schedule as long as it works for you! > Has anyone ever had the attitude that I have, convinced > that this is the right method for you, then unforseen circumstances > changed the whole scenario? Well, yes! One thing that often happens is that real life interferes in some way. Mom gets sick, or the family moves to a new house or remodels the old one, or the kids get parts in a play and have to stay up until midnight every night for rehearsals...any number of things can come up that wreck a good schedule. And what often happens next is that everyone realizes the learning went right on -- without anyone organizing, planning, or controlling it! Enough experiences like that, and everyone begins to think, "Hmmm! Why bother making it difficult, if we don't really need to?" Next thing you know, they're unschoolers. ;-) Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Is deschooling for everyone? (long) AUTHOR: Lee DATE: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 9:01 a.m. Response To: Is deschooling for everyone? (long) Author: Ann O. Date: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 8:16 a.m. Yes, we started out with a "schoolroom" in our house and used texts and workbooks. This worked fine for us for a few years. Then we got so involved with outside activites that we were not spending so much time sitting at a table and fell out of the habit of "doing school" everyday. This past spring, my mother became ill and I have had to spend so much time at her house that we have not been able to keep up with what formal "schoolwork" we had been doing that I was really getting worried. BUT, thanks to these fine people here, I have come to realize that most of my kids are learning all the time on their own. I only have one that worries me and I am learning to relax where he is concerned, hoping that he will get motivated to learn more about the things that interest him. I think I have "known" in the back of my mind all along that "unschooling" was the better way but had not seen it actually defined as a learning method. I should have trusted my own instincts because this is the way I, personally, have learned just about everything I know. As a matter of fact, while in school myself, I always looked forward to getting through with it so I could get on with learning something important. Sorry to ramble on so. If you feel comfortable with what you are doing, then go for it! That's the beauty of homeschooling - you can find the "right" way for your family and have the option of changing whenever necessary. :.) > Is deschooling the "homeschooling way"? When > is traditional homeschooling O.K.? I feel as if I'm the > only one who doesn't have a problem with it. Even though > this is my first year homeschooling, I know what I have > in store for me: possiblity of burn-out, motivation problems, > etc. But, when I first started setting up for homeschooling, > my daughter, who was psed through 2nd, started suggesting > things that she had done in ps, such as rewards, bulletin > boards, time schedule, special dress-up days, etc. I had > no problem with this. We don't have a problem with ps, except > that their days are wasted with time-filling nonsense activities. > > So, we started school on Monday, and everything is > going just as planned, except that we're not taking the > full 15-30 minutes in each subject, which is really nice. > She knows the material presented in the books right now. > According to the schedule I made, we should finish school > at 1:30 each day, but Monday and Tuesday were done at noon, > and today was done at 10:30. (We start around 9.) > Yes, we have a "classroom" and a dry-erase > board and a traditional curriculum. (A Beka) > Has anyone ever had the attitude that I have, convinced > that this is the right method for you, then unforseen circumstances > changed the whole scenario? ======================================== MESSAGE: My 2 cents worth AUTHOR: JanetS. DATE: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 9:33 a.m. Response To: Lee, I thought about this some more... Author: Giovanna Date: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 5:10 a.m. I've always wondered what unschooling/deschooling ment. My 3 daughters have never been in ps. When we started hsing 8 years ago I did use a few workbooks to begin with but found we learned more when the girls brought in an injured tree toad or found a fox skeleton that they wanted to put back together. I junked the workbooks then and there. Watch what your child does when he plays - if he likes to mix the leftover from supper into individual dishes (as my middle one does) ask him why? Mine wanted to see what happened and wondered if "bugs" would grow in it! Yuk - and I though girls were dainty! Each child has their own bent - things they inherently lean toward doing. Follow that with guidance from you. I have had to teach my children how to learn. When they ask a question I don't give them the answer. I say - "Hmmm...where do you suppose we could find the answer to that question." I let them come up with ideas - encyclopedias? internet? a library visit for research? Then if they get stuck I give some suggestions. I spent many a restless day wondering if they were "getting it" and hearing the critisims from other hsers about our lack of "real school" and quite often questioned our path. I spent many a long hour on my knees in prayer asking for leading from the Lord. One book I recommend is "Wisdom's Way of Learning" by Marilyn Howshall. This book chronicles her seach for the "right way of learing" for her children. Also Kathyrn Stout's "Design-A-Study" helps in guiding the children to the right answers. When my middle daughter wanted to know more about China I knew that telling her to read about wouldn't get her very far. Kathyrn's history guide lists several "thinking" questions that the girls know to use to aid them in their learning. Such questions as: What was this people know for? (were they warriors, philosophers, etc.)How did they dress? Did their dress have anything to do with the climate they lived in? I don't know how much this will help you but you can e-mail me if you want. Janet > The main goal of education should be for a child to > learn HOW to learn and for a child to become an independent > learner and a lover of learning, right??? > If a child is depending on mom to prepare his "lessons" > even into the teenage years then that goal in my opinion > has not been met. > This is not to say that mom is never involved in the > learning process. Mom is involved but her role changes as > the years go by. > There is a big difference between a child saying "Mom, > I'm looking for some sites on WWII and I can't find XX thing...can > you help?" and mom looking for those sites without > the child being interested in seeing them (even if he IS > interested in WWII). > Do you see what I'm trying to explain? :-) > Mom is the encourager and the guide and she is supposed > to be involved. But if mom is constantly finding the resources > in order to get the child to learn then I would take steps > to change that. The goal of becoming an independent learner > has not been reached yet. > Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Changing Over Time AUTHOR: Laura DATE: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 9:38 a.m. Response To: Is deschooling for everyone? (long) Author: Ann O. Date: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 8:16 a.m. Ann, A year ago, I was convinced that deschooling, relaxed homeschooling and unschooling were going to produce unprepared students who knew either a whole lot about a few topics, but did not possess what many Americans would consider to be important things for an educated person to know, or they were going to skate through their formative years barely scratching the surface of accumulated knowledge. I even debated with other members on this board against the unschooling concept. How I have changed - I am not completely in the other camp yet, but I have made significant strides in that direction. I like the Abeka curriculum and think it is one of the best for a packaged, workbook-based curricula; but I found that even with the best curricula out there, workbook learning was second-rate. For example, which is a better learning experience - to do a worksheet page circling verbs in a sentence and then writing a couple that they think up on their own; or talking about verbs and then, while they are narrating a story back to you, asking them if they can think of another verb that conveys more excitement, or more sadness, etc.; or asking them why an author used a verb like 'observed' or 'peered' rather than just 'saw', and then asking them to give you their own definition of what a verb is. The workbook teaches the child to recognize a verb, the other method teaches the child to "think", make comparisons, see the real life connection between verbs and their use in quality literature. Workbook learning stresses recognizing patterns, and following the example; neither of which require a child to think creatively on his own. Endless "reading comprehension" exercises can especially numb a child's creativity; the child quickly learns to read the questions first and go back and read the selection looking specifically for just the answers to the question, and then they answer verbatim from the text the answer. This practice might generate good results on standardized tests, but it will not produce good readers who love to read and comprehend what they are reading as a matter of course. Creative thinking IS more difficult, and a child who has relaxed into the workbook mentality (mine almost did), will probably resist at first actually having to 'think.' Remember, you don't have to, and most don't, switch your educational philosophy overnight, just try something new with one subject, maybe science or history. Most of all, enjoy the learning adventure with your daughter and make the LOVE of learning the goal regardless of what homeschool method you choose. Laura > Is deschooling the "homeschooling way"? When > is traditional homeschooling O.K.? I feel as if I'm the > only one who doesn't have a problem with it. Even though > this is my first year homeschooling, I know what I have > in store for me: possiblity of burn-out, motivation problems, > etc. But, when I first started setting up for homeschooling, > my daughter, who was psed through 2nd, started suggesting > things that she had done in ps, such as rewards, bulletin > boards, time schedule, special dress-up days, etc. I had > no problem with this. We don't have a problem with ps, except > that their days are wasted with time-filling nonsense activities. > > So, we started school on Monday, and everything is > going just as planned, except that we're not taking the > full 15-30 minutes in each subject, which is really nice. > She knows the material presented in the books right now. > According to the schedule I made, we should finish school > at 1:30 each day, but Monday and Tuesday were done at noon, > and today was done at 10:30. (We start around 9.) > Yes, we have a "classroom" and a dry-erase > board and a traditional curriculum. (A Beka) > Has anyone ever had the attitude that I have, convinced > that this is the right method for you, then unforseen circumstances > changed the whole scenario? ======================================== MESSAGE: Deschooling is for moms and kids who need a different way... AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 10:04 a.m. Response To: Is deschooling for everyone? (long) Author: Ann O. Date: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 8:16 a.m. and for those who hate "school." Is it for everyone? There isn't an "official" book that says it has to be done. If you and your child are happy then why change it? When we began this home school adventure (way back when we hadn't realized that we had been homeschooling all along--not when they turned the magical age of 5) we ran into "problems" with our son right away. He was not interested, acted displeased, and resented the contrived agenda I had set up every day. But you know what? It never dawned on me that HE had the problem. Never. Why would he have a problem? He was just a four year old child who did not know that there is just a certain way you act when you sit down to do "school" (said with a sarcastic grin). I knew immediately that my approach was wrong. That whole scenario immediately showed me how totally UNNATURAL and totally ARTIFICIAL this whole "schooling" process can get. I didn't want that. I wanted something different. I wanted my children to WANT to learn. I wanted them to rush to me and beg me to read to them. I wanted to someday see them enthralled with a book, to see them work on self directed projects. I WANTED WAAAAY MORE! I knew that in order to get that I would not be able to go the standard way. So.... *WE* went thru the deschooling process. My kids didn't need to. They were the ones who knew how to learn. We had to get rid of our "public school mentality" in order to get out of their way and let them learn the way the were naturally programmed to. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Not an either/or proposition--if I may jump into this discussion! AUTHOR: joni DATE: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 2:32 p.m. Response To: Re: Changing Over Time Author: Laura Date: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 9:38 a.m. > Ann, > A year ago, I was convinced that deschooling, relaxed > homeschooling and unschooling were going to produce unprepared > students who knew either a whole lot about a few topics, > but did not possess what many Americans would consider to > be important things for an educated person to know, or they > were going to skate through their formative years barely > scratching the surface of accumulated knowledge. I even > debated with other members on this board against the unschooling > concept. How I have changed - I am not completely in the > other camp yet, but I have made significant strides in that > direction. I like the Abeka curriculum and think it is one > of the best for a packaged, workbook-based curricula; but > I found that even with the best curricula out there, workbook > learning was second-rate. For example, which is a better > learning experience - to do a worksheet page circling verbs > in a sentence and then writing a couple that they think > up on their own; or talking about verbs and then, while > they are narrating a story back to you, asking them if they > can think of another verb that conveys more excitement, > or more sadness, etc.; or asking them why an author used > a verb like 'observed' or 'peered' rather than just 'saw', > and then asking them to give you their own definition of > what a verb is. The workbook teaches the child to recognize > a verb, the other method teaches the child to "think", > make comparisons, see the real life connection between verbs > and their use in quality literature. If I may say so, I don't think the examples you gave ( re :verbs) are an either/or situation. We are using a combination of workbooks, hands on stuff, Five in a Row, etc., for 1st and 3rd grade. As a matter of fact, we are doing both examples you described to learn about verbs. I simply don't think children need to be drilled ad nauseum, which is what some textbook/workbook publishers seem to push. As someone who is willing to use the "tools" of a more traditional type education, my goal is to master the basics quickly and move on. We will do as many workbook pages as is necessary to acquire a skill--IF that method is actually suitable to the child and/or subject matter. We do a lot of reading aloud. I read to the children in the morning, and my husband reads to them in the evening. My dh also reads to my teen girls and me almost every night, although they are seniors in our local public school. Good literature is a much nicer basis for family discussion than most stuff on tv! Joni Workbook learning stresses > recognizing patterns, and following the example; neither > of which require a child to think creatively on his own. > Endless "reading comprehension" exercises can > especially numb a child's creativity; the child quickly > learns to read the questions first and go back and read > the selection looking specifically for just the answers > to the question, and then they answer verbatim from the > text the answer. This practice might generate good results > on standardized tests, but it will not produce good readers > who love to read and comprehend what they are reading as > a matter of course. > Creative thinking IS more difficult, and a child who > has relaxed into the workbook mentality (mine almost did), > will probably resist at first actually having to 'think.' > Remember, you don't have to, and most don't, switch your > educational philosophy overnight, just try something new > with one subject, maybe science or history. Most of all, > enjoy the learning adventure with your daughter and make > the LOVE of learning the goal regardless of what homeschool > method you choose. > Laura ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: What's happened to us AUTHOR: Debbie K. DATE: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 2:47 p.m. Response To: Is deschooling for everyone? (long) Author: Ann O. Date: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 8:16 a.m. Ann, I brought my twin boys home from ps after K & 1st grade, and we, too, started with a structured schedule (used A Beka). They, too, wanted some of the familiarity of "school" (awards, bulletin boards, recess, etc.). But as time went on through the year, we started struggling...not with the material, but with the method. There were many frustrating moments (days...weeks...) for both them and me. So I needed to re-evaluate some things, examine myself, our goals as a family, and PRAY, PRAY, PRAY.... Now starting into our 2nd year, we still do some structure (mostly because of my inability to totally let go of the old "tapes" running in my head about "school"...my head has learned that "school" and "education" are *not* synonomous, but my knee-jerk reactions still reflect my traditional schooling background). I know many people whose home education methods look much like a traditional compulsory school as most of us know it...and it works fine for them. Others are "radical unschoolers", and that works for them. But many folks are somewhere in between (like myself). I think the message is to be flexible and do what works for you, and be willing to change as the need arises. For us, this year doesn't look much like last year, and I suspect that next year will look different than both of our 1st two years. What fun and how exciting!! We love it!! Best of luck to you and your family! Debbie K. ======================================== MESSAGE: Something else I thought of... AUTHOR: Ann O. DATE: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 4:56 p.m. Response To: Is deschooling for everyone? (long) Author: Ann O. Date: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 8:16 a.m. Being our first year, I'm totally worried about standardized testing. Cerelle reminded me when she talked about unschooling. How do unschoolers make sure they cover everything they need in order to make sure their children pass the standardized test, providing it's required, like in VA, where we're from? The only thing I could think of is going by a skills checklist for that particular grade. That's another factor that made me decide to go with A Beka: if it's a curriculum, it must teach all that she needs to pass the test. On another note, I don't do EXACTLY what A Beka says. I usually have my own ideas to throw in here and there. Whether teaching the verbs, or multiplication, or whatever, I know lots of different ways to present it. When we begin History, I plan on trying my hand at unit studies and reading A LOT of story books from the library that goes with the chapter(person) we're learning. My daughter loves to be read to, and I'm not going to ever discourage the love of reading. Hope this clarifies some things! :) ======================================== MESSAGE: Testing AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 5:42 p.m. Response To: Something else I thought of... Author: Ann O. Date: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 4:56 p.m. > Being our first year, I'm totally worried about standardized > testing. Cerelle reminded me when she talked about unschooling. > How do unschoolers make sure they cover everything they > need in order to make sure their children pass the standardized > test, providing it's required, like in VA, where we're from? I understand your worries, Ann. Between being a 1st-time homeschooler and living in a state that breathes down your neck, it's got to be nerve-wracking! According to what I read on the Main Board today, VA also allows portfolio assessment at the end of the year (in lieu of standardized tests). Have you checked into this at all? It would be up to you to decided which evaluation method gave you the most freedom and the least hassle. I wish I could wave a magic wand over you and banish all those worries, but you'll probably just have to "grow out of them" the hard way. :-) I will say this -- curious, interested, alert children (and it sounds like you have one of these!) usually do real well on those tests, no matter WHAT they've been doing all year. I know it's hard to take something like that on faith, though, and I don't expect you to. So I repeat, keep doing what works and makes you both happy. > The only thing I could think of is going by a skills checklist > for that particular grade. That's another factor that made > me decide to go with A Beka: if it's a curriculum, it must > teach all that she needs to pass the test. I wonder if that's true! I mean, it probably is, since those tests are usually pretty easy. But here's something else to consider: Is this going to be your bottom line? Whether or not your daughter will be able to pass a standardized skills test at the end of the year? If you're going to do this the traditional way, you can set WAY higher goals than that! Just something to think about... > On another note, I don't do EXACTLY what A Beka says. > I usually have my own ideas to throw in here and there. > Whether teaching the verbs, or multiplication, or whatever, > I know lots of different ways to present it. When we begin > History, I plan on trying my hand at unit studies and reading > A LOT of story books from the library that goes with the > chapter(person) we're learning. My daughter loves to be > read to, and I'm not going to ever discourage the love of > reading. > Hope this clarifies some things! :) It does, indeed. I'm getting a picture of a really on-the-ball mom who has lots of ideas about how to challenge and encourage her daughter's academic growth. I've said this before and I'll say it again -- just because you do a few hours of "sit-down" work each day doesn't mean you aren't doing lots of other highly educational stuff throughout the rest of the day. Don't ever feel like you're being backed into a corner, here. YOU and YOUR CHILD are the ones making the decisions now, and I wish you luck! Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Deschooling/Unschooling AUTHOR: Summer DATE: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 10:05 p.m. I hope this isn't a "stupid" question but.....what is deschooling or unschooling. I'm not real sure what this is. I am sort of new to hs and I still am learning alot about it all the time. Also, one more thing. Since I have been reading and posting on Kaleidoscapes, I have noticed that alot of abbreviations are being used...(dh,ss,etc...) could someone please help a confused friend? Thanks to all. ======================================== MESSAGE: Diving Into Deschooling...Thanks for the lifejackets! AUTHOR: Pam DATE: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 2:04 a.m. I just wanted to thank all of you great moms (and Dads too!) who have helped me immeasurably with your sensitive and insightful posts. On the first day of public school (August 12) I could literally feel my heart sink when I met my son's 2nd grade teacher. She arrived late, barely making the bell, and a real miser when it came to smiling! The handwriting was glaring at me on the wall. Geez, even I was afraid of her! (I later heard from my son that she yelled at the kids a lot and her method of helping them with their classwork was to repeat, mantra-like: "Just DO IT!!".) >From that day I began to look into homeschooling in earnest, reading everything I could find and searching the World Wide Web. What really motivated me though was when I learned that the school was going to provide "Special Education" for my supposedly ADD son this year. There was no way that I would ever trust these idiots with my son. I have always believed that his so-called learning disability was in reality a TEACHER disability. Now I KNOW I was right. Thanks for the great support you all give so freely and lovingly! We are happily deschooling, secure in the knowledge that there are more than enough life jackets for anyone courageous enough to brave these new waters! (Sorry this was so long!) Blessings to you all! ======================================== MESSAGE: Definitions AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 5:33 a.m. Response To: Deschooling/Unschooling Author: Summer Date: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 10:05 p.m. > > I hope this isn't a "stupid" question but.....what > is deschooling or unschooling. I'm not real sure what this > is. I am sort of new to hs and I still am learning alot > about it all the time. Also, one more thing. Since I have > been reading and posting on Kaleidoscapes, I have noticed > that alot of abbreviations are being used...(dh,ss,etc...) > could someone please help a confused friend? Thanks to all. > HELLO SUMMER! The abbreviations "dh," "ds", "dd" stand for "darling" or "dear" husband, son, daughter, etc. LOL= laughing out loud ROTFL= rolling on the floor laughing Ok...now unto DESCHOOLING.... Deschooling is a period of time or a process that some parents and children go thru when they begin homeschooling (especially if they have been just pulled out of private/public school). The goal of this time period is to give a child a "break" or what some call "decompression" time from school. When children come home from school they are often burned out and seem to resist doing academics. During this time period, education can continue (although some parents do not make any demands on the child) but the form of the education is different. You will often find deschooling parents reading aloud to their children, going out on many "field trips," engaging in educational games and allowing the child time to regain his sense of wonder. The purpose of Deschooling is just that....to get "school" out of your life. Deschooling continues until a child's spark comes back. SOmetimes it is a long process. Sometimes a child begins to thrive by actively pursuing self-directed projects that interest him. Once a child does that then his sense of wonder is rekindled. He/she has learned not to rely on someone for an education but to pursue it on their own. Further down on this board you will find a thread on deschooling and several people have posted there with their stories. UNSCHOOLING..... Unschooling is a method or an approach to learning which allows the child to lead and direct their education. The basis of this approach gives the child a lot of freedom to learn what they need to learn when they are ready and when it is relevant to their life. Unschooling parents use "real life" to guide their children in their academic pursuit. Starting Sept 15 we will be talking about unschooling on the MAIN BOARD at Kaleidoscapes (link to the MAIN BOARD at the top of this board). We are going to be discussing THE UNSCHOOLING HANDBOOK. You can still get the book and join us. Go to the MAIN BOARD and click on the book at the top of the page and it will take you to where you need to go to order it. YOu will receive the book very fast (I did). Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Our upcoming unschooling adventure (long) AUTHOR: Sandi DATE: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 5:04 p.m. Response To: Deschooling is for moms and kids who need a different way... Author: Giovanna Date: Thursday, 10 September 1998, at 10:04 a.m. We have been homeschooling for 6 years and every year has been different. We started out with Calvert's 2nd grade when I panicked at the last minute over my ability to homeschool. The next year we tried Seton; the following year we tried workbooks for the three R's and unit studies for history and science. The next year was extremely relaxed due to our moving in the middle of the year. We basically continued with reading and math that year, and minimally covered everything else. The next year was an eclectic, relaxed year. We were in a three-family co-op for science and writing and covered the other subjects via workbooks and reading. This past year found us using the Sonlight curriculum as well as being part of a 16-family co-op where such subjects as science, art, geography, history and writing were covered. It was a very structured year and we probably covered more material than any other year and read more books than ever before. We all adjusted to the strict regime of lesson plans, homework, lots of written work, and deadlines, but none of us was really comfortable homeschooling in such a structured, demanding way. It left no time for following individual interests or even reading for pleasure. I don't feel that after 6 years we have really found our "niche" yet as to what style of homeschooling we do best with. Each year I kept varying the curriculum and style in order to fit the child. As I am realizing, though, my son was giving me a hard time no matter how we homeschooled. He wanted me to plan his schooling; yet would then fight me on it. He wanted me to control his homeschooling, but under his control. This is hard to explain! I finally got wise and I rebelled this summer. So this year we are going to be really "radical" and try unschooling. I told my children that they are free to read whatever they want and to discover what interests them. I want them to get so bored that THEY have to figure out what to do to amuse themselves. I don't want to always suggest things and have then choose from MY suggestions. I want them to come up with the suggestions--make it totally their idea what they do. I will suggest, occasionally, but if they reject everything, then I am out of the loop. We will play lots of games, learn more life skills, and hopefully do lots more field trips. I want them to be less dependent on me for their learning as learning (or not) is really totally their own responsibility. I don't want them to dislike learning, or to think that learning only occurs between the hours of 9 and 4 and that after that they are free to play. I want learning to occur naturally all day long! In our family I've been trying to erase this idea that we're in "school." I keep emphasizing to my kids that they're not in a "grade" because grades are for schools and they are not in a school. Grades are just artificial ways of classifying and sorting kids according to their age. I myself am even trying to get away from saying that they're "doing school" at all. I try to say that we're going to learn something new. Or "let's read this book, it's really cool!" I'm really trying hard not to even use terms like "doing science," or "doing history" at all. For example, I don't want to say "it's time to do math" and have my daughter think "Miquon!" I don't want her to think that this is all math is. In other words, I don't want her to equate math=a certain book or curriculum. I want her to see and learn the beauty of math in all things without her knowing that she's even "doing math." Up until now, my son has said he wants to attend a military academy (West Point), or be a doctor. Yet he was doing nothing that indicated he really was interested in either of these--he was just talking. But yet he kept talking about having to take courses, get credits, not wanting to read a book unless "it counted". He was channeling everything so narrowly. He was gearing himself down one single path towards a day 5 years in the future when he would be "graduated", having completed all those required courses. Yet he had no real interest in learning any of those courses! That's why I decided to unschool this year. I feel he has time (technically he's in 8th grade)before he has to really think about what he wants to do. I want him to find his "passions", discover his interests. Then, if he decides it's something he wants to pursue, we can figure out what avenue he needs to take to pursue those passions. But I don't even want him to think about his future career, college, or long-term goals right now. I just want him to find out what he really likes to do. But, despite what our family does, the beauty of homeschooling is that each family can do whatever works for them! Maybe the following year, as we start high school, we will again go the structured route. Who knows? Each year is a new adventure and a new challenge for us. In another post I will tell you how we are DESCHOOLING! Sandi ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: How we're deschooling AUTHOR: Sandi DATE: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 5:43 p.m. Response To: Definitions Author: Giovanna Date: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 5:33 a.m. Ok...now unto DESCHOOLING.... > Deschooling is a period of time or a process that some > parents and children go thru when they begin homeschooling > (especially if they have been just pulled out of private/public > school). The goal of this time period is to give a child > a "break" or what some call "decompression" > time from school. When children come home from school they > are often burned out and seem to resist doing academics. > During this time period, education can continue (although > some parents do not make any demands on the child) but the > form of the education is different. You will often find > deschooling parents reading aloud to their children, going > out on many "field trips," engaging in educational > games and allowing the child time to regain his sense of > wonder. The purpose of Deschooling is just that....to get > "school" out of your life. Deschooling continues > until a child's spark comes back. SOmetimes it is a long > process. Sometimes a child begins to thrive by actively > pursuing self-directed projects that interest him. Once > a child does that then his sense of wonder is rekindled. > He/she has learned not to rely on someone for an education > but to pursue it on their own. Further down on this board > you will find a thread on deschooling and several people > have posted there with their stories. Giovanna, This is a great definition. However, one may need to deschool from structured homeschooling! That's our story. Just today I made two deschooling decisions. We have decided to unschool this year. But we were also asked to be in a small 3-4 family Konos co-op that sounded like fun. My daughter and I went to check it out last week. I was really tempted to join it; but then I thought how it was going totally against what we were trying to do this year. It was letting someone else determine our schedule for us, determine what courses we studied (I could choose one topic to teach and if the others were agreeable, teach it. The other units were already planned). We would be tied down and it would be a year-long commitment. So a little while ago I called and told my friend I was not going to do it; that it just didn't "jive" with our philosophy for this year. She understood totally. Right after that I called another friend who I had planned to co-op with on Fridays with my daughter and her two daughters. I told her that I liked getting the girls together, but didn't want it to be so academic. (We were going to do Science together using CGC, and art using Visual Manna plus I was going to do a math lab and she would do something else of her choosing). I told her I was not interested in structured science after all, and my daughter DID NOT want to study plants (what she wanted to teach). I told her I was still willing to do the math lab (games, mental math, etc.) and she could do art stuff or home ec-type stuff, or other more "fun" stuff, including science things like experiments or whatever. But not follow a curriculum. She agreed, and said actually she thinks she would like it better! We can be more relaxed. She even suggested maybe we want to do a bunch of field trips as well. We can do all the local stuff--Yorktown, Jamestown, Williamsburg, Monticello, etc.-- and consider that they have learned the entire 4th grade state history curriculum! Before I made these decisions I talked to my daugher and found out that she PREFERRED not to do these co-ops, and wanted just us to do things. She wants me to read books to her about animals and science things; she wants me to do writing with her; play games with her. So I am following her lead and doing what she wants, not what I want. Surprisingly, when I told her about unschooling she jumped on the idea. On her own, she told me she wants to do math, write a book, read books, have me read to her, do spelling (!) and handwriting, play games, and go places. My 14 year old son has decided he wants to take a high school Biology course at the local homeschool parent co-operative, read books he chooses, do math, watch educational shows on the history and discovery channels on t.v., and possibly do Spanish II with me. I told him fine, if that's what he wants to do. I am not saying another word. I am just going to watch and see what he actually does (we did sign up for the Biology course so he will definitely do that) and be there as a resource person for him. He also hopes I'll play lots of games with him and do things with him and continue to read aloud to him. I feel really radical and relaxed !! I don't have to worry about when we are "starting school", because we aren't! We're not doing "school". We're going to follow our own interests, share in each other's interests, and help each other out, play with each other, and learn together. Our structure will be our chores, our set activities and outings, our life. I guess what I am really feeling is FREEDOM; freedom from the school mentality. We're just going to live our lives--everyday will be like what most people do on Saturday and Sunday, hopefully. Sandi ======================================== MESSAGE: Remarkable post! AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 5:57 p.m. Response To: Re: Our upcoming unschooling adventure (long) Author: Sandi Date: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 5:04 p.m. Sandi, you've just knocked my socks off! What a great timeline you've drawn of an ever-evolving homeschooling adventure! There are so many great things in this post you've written, and I have to comment on some of them... You wrote: > (snip)...As I am realizing, though, my son was giving > me a hard time no matter how we homeschooled. He wanted > me to plan his schooling; yet would then fight me on it. > He wanted me to control his homeschooling, but under his > control. This is hard to explain! Well, it's not hard to explain to me, because I had one JUST like that a few years ago. What it boiled down to, I think, is that she wanted *me* to be the one responsible for her learning...only she didn't always like my ideas that much. Still, it seemed like she'd want me to plan something, just so she could say "uh-uh, no thanks"... and THEN she'd come up with some good ideas of her own. It was a weird little dance we did, for a while there. The dance steps changed when she started really getting an idea of what she wanted to do, when she discovered her passions. Then she was ready for me to get completely out of her way. I don't mean that in a bad way...I mean she was so BUSY, she didn't have time to notice whether or not I was doing the work of planning her life for her. > I want them to get so bored that THEY have to figure out > what to do to amuse themselves. I don't want to always suggest > things and have then choose from MY suggestions. I want > them to come up with the suggestions--make it totally their > idea what they do. And it's not like they're living in a vacuum! I'll bet there's TONS of great stuff for them to read and do and experience, all around them, if they just take a good look around. > I'm really trying hard > not to even use terms like "doing science," or > "doing history" at all. For example, I don't want > to say "it's time to do math" and have my daughter > think "Miquon!" I don't want her to think that > this is all math is. In other words, I don't want her to > equate math=a certain book or curriculum. I want her to > see and learn the beauty of math in all things without her > knowing that she's even "doing math." EXCELLENT!!! Wow! Well said, Sandi! > That's why I decided to unschool this year. I feel > he has time (technically he's in 8th grade)before he has > to really think about what he wants to do. I want him to > find his "passions", discover his interests. Then, > if he decides it's something he wants to pursue, we can > figure out what avenue he needs to take to pursue those > passions. But I don't even want him to think about his future > career, college, or long-term goals right now. I just want > him to find out what he really likes to do. My oldest once said to me (at about your son's age, I think) that she just couldn't imagine what she would end up wanting to do with her life. (She was going through a very apathetic time in her life!) I said, "Well, what do you love so much, you'd stay up all night doing it and not even feel tired?" She answered that the only thing that came to mind was reading. "Fine," I said. "There are lots of occupations that are mostly just reading." The next time we went to the library, we went to the reference section and read all the job descriptions that had to do with editing, research, etc. She was so excited! It just hadn't occurred to her that you could actually make a living by reading! > But, despite what our family does, the beauty of homeschooling > is that each family can do whatever works for them! Maybe > the following year, as we start high school, we will again > go the structured route. Who knows? Each year is a new adventure > and a new challenge for us. Sometimes, it's fun to get real structured after a long period of being UNstructured, and vice versa. It gives everyone the feeling of trying something brand-new. Although, in my experience, about a month or two of structure is PLENTY for us. :-D > In another post I will tell you how we are DESCHOOLING! I'm waiting with bated breath! Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: What a great story!! Thank you for sharing it with us all! (nt) AUTHOR: Shari DATE: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 8:33 p.m. Response To: Re: Our upcoming unschooling adventure (long) Author: Sandi Date: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 5:04 p.m. > > We have been homeschooling for 6 years and every year > has been different. We started out with Calvert's 2nd grade > when I panicked at the last minute over my ability to homeschool. > The next year we tried Seton; the following year we tried > workbooks for the three R's and unit studies for history > and science. The next year was extremely relaxed due to > our moving in the middle of the year. We basically continued > with reading and math that year, and minimally covered everything > else. The next year was an eclectic, relaxed year. We were > in a three-family co-op for science and writing and covered > the other subjects via workbooks and reading. This past > year found us using the Sonlight curriculum as well as being > part of a 16-family co-op where such subjects as science, > art, geography, history and writing were covered. It was > a very structured year and we probably covered more material > than any other year and read more books than ever before. > We all adjusted to the strict regime of lesson plans, homework, > lots of written work, and deadlines, but none of us was > really comfortable homeschooling in such a structured, demanding > way. It left no time for following individual interests > or even reading for pleasure. I don't feel that after 6 > years we have really found our "niche" yet as > to what style of homeschooling we do best with. Each year > I kept varying the curriculum and style in order to fit > the child. As I am realizing, though, my son was giving > me a hard time no matter how we homeschooled. He wanted > me to plan his schooling; yet would then fight me on it. > He wanted me to control his homeschooling, but under his > control. This is hard to explain! > I finally got wise and I rebelled this summer. So this > year we are going to be really "radical" and try > unschooling. I told my children that they are free to read > whatever they want and to discover what interests them. > I want them to get so bored that THEY have to figure out > what to do to amuse themselves. I don't want to always suggest > things and have then choose from MY suggestions. I want > them to come up with the suggestions--make it totally their > idea what they do. I will suggest, occasionally, but if > they reject everything, then I am out of the loop. We will > play lots of games, learn more life skills, and hopefully > do lots more field trips. I want them to be less dependent > on me for their learning as learning (or not) is really > totally their own responsibility. I don't want them to dislike > learning, or to think that learning only occurs between > the hours of 9 and 4 and that after that they are free to > play. I want learning to occur naturally all day long! In > our family I've been trying to erase this idea that we're > in "school." I keep emphasizing to my kids that > they're not in a "grade" because grades are for > schools and they are not in a school. Grades are just artificial > ways of classifying and sorting kids according to their > age. I myself am even trying to get away from saying that > they're "doing school" at all. I try to say that > we're going to learn something new. Or "let's read > this book, it's really cool!" I'm really trying hard > not to even use terms like "doing science," or > "doing history" at all. For example, I don't want > to say "it's time to do math" and have my daughter > think "Miquon!" I don't want her to think that > this is all math is. In other words, I don't want her to > equate math=a certain book or curriculum. I want her to > see and learn the beauty of math in all things without her > knowing that she's even "doing math." > Up until now, my son has said he wants to attend a > military academy (West Point), or be a doctor. Yet he was > doing nothing that indicated he really was interested in > either of these--he was just talking. But yet he kept talking > about having to take courses, get credits, not wanting to > read a book unless "it counted". He was channeling > everything so narrowly. He was gearing himself down one > single path towards a day 5 years in the future when he > would be "graduated", having completed all those > required courses. Yet he had no real interest in learning > any of those courses! > That's why I decided to unschool this year. I feel > he has time (technically he's in 8th grade)before he has > to really think about what he wants to do. I want him to > find his "passions", discover his interests. Then, > if he decides it's something he wants to pursue, we can > figure out what avenue he needs to take to pursue those > passions. But I don't even want him to think about his future > career, college, or long-term goals right now. I just want > him to find out what he really likes to do. > But, despite what our family does, the beauty of homeschooling > is that each family can do whatever works for them! Maybe > the following year, as we start high school, we will again > go the structured route. Who knows? Each year is a new adventure > and a new challenge for us. > In another post I will tell you how we are DESCHOOLING! > > Sandi ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: How we're deschooling AUTHOR: Summer DATE: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 8:42 p.m. Response To: Re: How we're deschooling Author: Sandi Date: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 5:43 p.m. So, again, hoping not to sound "silly" or "confused", but I can actually do this kind of things with my son instead of having to "go by the books" all the time? We don't have to get up every morning and get out the english, math, science, spelling, etc... (books). We can use educational games and field trips, reading stories out loud and so forth? WOW! What about giving weekly tests and such? I hope I have the right idea because this will be a big change for both my son and myself. Over the last year, he has really got "burnt out" with the books. I try to make it as interesting as possible for him but it is hard sometimes. I have to admit, I get "burnt out" too. I have been hs for 4 yrs (counting this year). I hate to admit it but I don't seem to have the knack for coming up with interesting ways to hs. I have always "used the books" everyday. I am afraid if I don't "go by the books" I will hurt my son. I guess I am just a "boring chicken". Anyway, please let me know if I have the right idea about deschooling/unschooling. I hope so because this will help both my son and myself for a little while. Also, this will be something I can tell my sister about. She hs her son too and like me, she drags out the books daily. Thanks in advance to all. Summer ======================================== MESSAGE: That's right -- you're free! AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 9:33 p.m. Response To: Re: How we're deschooling Author: Summer Date: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 8:42 p.m. Summer, Please don't ever worry about asking questions here. That's what we're here for! We ALL started at ground zero. > (snip)...but I can actually do this kind of > things with my son instead of having to "go by the > books" all the time? We don't have to get up every > morning and get out the english, math, science, spelling, > etc... (books). We can use educational games and field trips, > reading stories out loud and so forth? WOW! Wow is right! Yes, you can. Now don't interpret this to mean that I'm telling you that this what you SHOULD do, or that you should NOT do it some other way. But if freedom from strict schedules and textbooks sounds appealing to you, then let me reassure you that many homeschooling families have been successful -- beyond their wildest dreams -- with this method. > What about giving weekly tests and such? If you want to, fine. But in 12 years of homeschooling, I've never given my children a test, other than the VERY occasional spelling test (which I never graded). This did not prevent my oldest daughter from making a very high SAT (college entrance exam) score -- high enough to get her into just about any college she wanted to attend and qualify her for hefty tuition grants. (My younger children have not yet taken the SAT.) > I hope I have the right idea because > this will be a big change for both my son and myself. If you end up feeling uncomfortable practicing a more relaxed style of homeschooling, there's nothing to prevent you from going back to the way you were doing it before. Don't worry about "losing precious time." Education is not a race. Think of it instead as a journey. > Over > the last year, he has really got "burnt out" with > the books. I try to make it as interesting as possible for > him but it is hard sometimes. I have to admit, I get "burnt > out" too. I have been hs for 4 yrs (counting this year). Definitely time to get a fresh breeze blowing through your minds! Everyone gets tired of following the same old routine. > I hate to admit it but I don't seem to have the knack for > coming up with interesting ways to hs. I have always "used > the books" everyday. I am afraid if I don't "go > by the books" I will hurt my son. I guess I am just > a "boring chicken". That just shows what a caring, conscientious mom you are! But boredom can hurt a child, too. If you've never thought of yourself as creative, now's the time to start, because ANYONE can be creative. All you have to do is take a deep breath and dare to dream! Think BIG! I'm a huge lover of books, but I HATE most textbooks. I think most of them are just AWFUL. There's so much more information in REAL books. Textbooks and workbooks are a pale, pale imitation of the real thing. If you go to the library once a week, you may never need to look at another textbook as long as you live. How's that for "wow"? Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Deschooling AUTHOR: Michelle DATE: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 9:37 p.m. I believe we must first Deschool ourselves as parents. I recently was asked how many hours a day I spent schooling I replied 2 1/2 or more. The person was shocked and said she was lucky to get an hour. I feel almost my whole day with my daughter is a learning experience, very little of which is spent at a desk we prefer outdoor education, with very little thought every play activity can be educational. And in later discussions with my daughter I noticed she retained more from one my crazy outdoor lessons about lizards than from a book I read to her at the kitchen table. Books, worksheets its all necessary but remember living is learning to. ======================================== MESSAGE: THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU! AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 10:25 p.m. Response To: Re: How we're deschooling Author: Sandi Date: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 5:43 p.m. > I feel really radical and relaxed !! I don't have > to worry about when we are "starting school", > because we aren't! We're not doing "school". We're > going to follow our own interests, share in each other's > interests, and help each other out, play with each other, > and learn together. Our structure will be our chores, our > set activities and outings, our life. Sandi! Thank you for visiting the board and sharing your experience. You have no idea how many moms you have inspired today. It's great to read the details and the "nitty gritty" of someone who is actually doing this. THANK YOU! Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Absolutely! AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 10:31 p.m. Response To: Deschooling Author: Michelle Date: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 9:37 p.m. > I believe we must first Deschool ourselves as parents. This is the first step. I went thru the deschooling process at the beginning. My children didn't have to. They had never been in public school or private school. But me??? UUUGH! I needed it badly. How did I deschool myself? Well, talking to people at these boards helped and I also talked to other moms online in an email loop I belong to. I read a lot of books about other's experiences and that helped. But you know what really did it for me? All I had to do was open my eyes to what was really going on at home. My child was learning and finding delight in learning and he didn't need a textbook!!! I could clearly see that my forced, artificial, contrived plans were going nowhere. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: That's right -- you're free! AUTHOR: Sandi DATE: Saturday, 12 September 1998, at 7:25 a.m. Response To: That's right -- you're free! Author: Cerelle Date: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 9:33 p.m. Here's something that Sandra Dodd wrote, that really struck a chord with me about grades: > How true--I remember busting my butt for classes in high school or college and really learning the subject, but then only getting a "C" on the test or in the class. They were NOT an indicator, at all, of my learning. And I felt if I got bad grades they were a reflection on my family. How stupid!! This has really liberated me, made me see the whole idea of grades in a different light..... Sandi ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Absolutely! AUTHOR: Sandi DATE: Saturday, 12 September 1998, at 7:45 a.m. Response To: Absolutely! Author: Giovanna Date: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 10:31 p.m. > But you know what really did it for me? All I had to > do was open my eyes to what was really going on at home. > My child was learning and finding delight in learning and > he didn't need a textbook!!! I could clearly see that my > forced, artificial, contrived plans were going nowhere. > This is so true. I remember a friend of mine from Puerto Rico, a doctor, who was unschooling her kids. She did not teach them to read, not even the sounds of the letters!! She just read to her kids ALL THE TIME, and eventually each one taught himself to read, and read well. Every time I met her it became a joke: Me: You didn't even teach them phonics? Her: Nope. Me: Not even what sound each letter made? Her: Not one! She was so confident that children would teach themselves that she "did not want to take that away from them". And she was right, it worked! I have since heard the same thing from many other people. She also did not use textbooks or workbooks. She knew what math a child needed to know, for example, and she just taught the concept and made up her own problems. Same with Science and history. She did not see the need for textbooks, curriculums, workbooks (unless the kids asked for one). If you think about it, you don't really need all this stuff. Think about what elementary age kids need to know. We know it! We made it through elementary school! Just teach it yourself (get yourself a text if you want, or whatever, to make your own outline of what to cover). I don't know what she did for the high school years, because we moved and I lost touch. This is all part of deschooling. Getting away from the idea that we need someone else to tell us how or what to teach. That's why I don't like standardized tests. They compare your child with children all over the country in the same grade. I don't follow a standardized curriculum, so why do I need a standardized test? I don't even care what "should" be covered in each grade. We do it when and if we want to. Having said this, I gave my daughter a 3rd grade IOWA test this summer, "just to see" (and because I had to administer it to two other girls anyway). Boy, what a mistake. She did terrible. The Science and Social Studies were not what we had done at all (we did World History and science units in a co-op). The reading comprehension was very long and hard, compared to the 2nd grade test (which is all oral--I gave it to another girl). It was too advanced for her and not where she is at all. I will not give her another test, unless she asks for it. Another thought on deschooling--get away from the mentality that your child is in a "grade". Maybe for the state you have to report a certain grade. Fine, say the grade other kids his age are in, and then just add one each year! But in reality, your child is not in a school, and grades are in schools; therefore, he cannot be in a grade. And since you are customizing your homeschooling to your child and his abilities and developmental level, he will be at all different levels at the same time. BTW, it drives my kids crazy every time they ask me what grade they're in and I tell them they're not in a grade!! So I tell them to pick a grade they want to say they're in so they will have an answer for whoever asks . Sandi ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: That's right -- you're free! AUTHOR: Sandi DATE: Saturday, 12 September 1998, at 7:51 a.m. Response To: Re: That's right -- you're free! Author: Sandi Date: Saturday, 12 September 1998, at 7:25 a.m. Why did Sandra's quote not post? Here it is again. > Here's something that Sandra Dodd wrote, that really > struck a chord with me about grades: She quit even considering punishing them for bad grades or rewarding them for good grades. Their grades were theirs, and not a reflection on the family, and not an indicator of learning. They were just grades, a contest, a competition like who sold the most candy bars, only my sister quit buying the candy bars, as it were. > How true--I remember busting my butt for classes in > high school or college and really learning the subject, > but then only getting a "C" on the test or in > the class. They were NOT an indicator, at all, of my learning. > And I felt if I got bad grades they were a reflection on > my family. How stupid!! This has really liberated me, made > me see the whole idea of grades in a different light..... > > Sandi > ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: How we're deschooling AUTHOR: Sandi DATE: Saturday, 12 September 1998, at 7:58 a.m. Response To: Re: How we're deschooling Author: Summer Date: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 8:42 p.m. Summer, Yes, can actually do these things!! It has taken me a long time to come to this point myself. And I'm still in the process of deschooling myself. My mother-in-law has temporarily moved in with us after her relocation to our city and while she awaits moving into her own new home (Oct. 31st), and I don't know myself how to tell her about our unschooling!! She has already twice asked me "when are you starting classes?" and I have been vague and answered, "Oh, in a few weeks." Am I chicken, or what . She hasn't a clue about learning and unschooling. She is very much into school, studying, grades, tests, having to go to college, pushing graduate school, etc. She will have a hard time understanding what we are doing. I have a week's reprieve (while she is visiting her daughter)to figure out how to approach it with her. Dh is no help, he doesn't know what to say either and thinks we should say nothing or "it's the program we're following." Right, what program ? She'll think the kids are doing nothing and the games we play are just playing and the t.v they watch is not learning and the field trips are just for fun, etc. etc. Any advice, suggestions, anyone? Sandi > > So, again, hoping not to sound "silly" or > "confused", but I can actually do this kind of > things with my son instead of having to "go by the > books" all the time? We don't have to get up every > morning and get out the english, math, science, spelling, > etc... (books). We can use educational games and field trips, > reading stories out loud and so forth? WOW! What about giving > weekly tests and such? I hope I have the right idea because > this will be a big change for both my son and myself. Over > the last year, he has really got "burnt out" with > the books. I try to make it as interesting as possible for > him but it is hard sometimes. I have to admit, I get "burnt > out" too. I have been hs for 4 yrs (counting this year). > I hate to admit it but I don't seem to have the knack for > coming up with interesting ways to hs. I have always "used > the books" everyday. I am afraid if I don't "go > by the books" I will hurt my son. I guess I am just > a "boring chicken". Anyway, please let me know > if I have the right idea about deschooling/unschooling. > I hope so because this will help both my son and myself > for a little while. Also, this will be something I can tell > my sister about. She hs her son too and like me, she drags > out the books daily. Thanks in advance to all. > Summer ======================================== MESSAGE: Evaluating your own educational history AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Saturday, 12 September 1998, at 12:27 p.m. Response To: Absolutely! Author: Giovanna Date: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 10:31 p.m. To be sure, I learned a lot of good things in school. I had some wonderful teachers who inpsired me and exposed me to ideas I hadn't come across before. I would never wish to discount their beneficial influence or negate the effort they put into their work as teachers. Still, when I look back, I can see that many of my most meaningful educational experiences happened on my own time, outside of school. There were books I read because my parents loved them and had copies at home, books I found serendipitously at the library, subjects I learned about because of my parents' interests, friends' interests, and my own interests. I learned to read before I went to school, and I kept reading long after I was out of school. So in my own learning history, school was just one small part of the picture. Of course, it made its influence felt, but in the overall hierarchy of educational importance, it doesn't even come near the top. In a way, deschooling is getting a clear idea of how and why learning really happens, what it means to "learn" something, and investigating the conditions under which our own children learn best and most happily. Cerelle > > This is the first step. I went thru the deschooling > process at the beginning. My children didn't have to. They > had never been in public school or private school. But me??? > UUUGH! I needed it badly. > How did I deschool myself? > Well, talking to people at these boards helped and > I also talked to other moms online in an email loop I belong > to. I read a lot of books about other's experiences and > that helped. > But you know what really did it for me? All I had to > do was open my eyes to what was really going on at home. > My child was learning and finding delight in learning and > he didn't need a textbook!!! I could clearly see that my > forced, artificial, contrived plans were going nowhere. > > Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Absolutely! AUTHOR: Tina in GA DATE: Saturday, 12 September 1998, at 2:44 p.m. Response To: Re: Absolutely! Author: Sandi Date: Saturday, 12 September 1998, at 7:45 a.m. So glad you brought up the point about forgetting what "grade" they are in. We are in our first year of HSing our 11 yo ADHD son. I am quickly finding out that unschooling is going to be better for us. My son loves math so we are using a curriculum for that. Like all new HSers, I bought a curriculum for Social Studies, Science and Language ARts/ Spelling. Now my child would be in 5th grade if he would have gone back to PS, (he was an A-B student there) but he is doing 4th grade math, and struggling with 4th grade language arts/spelling. After nearly failing his first two spelling tests in our HS curriculum, I decided that if it took us two or three weeks to get it, we'd take it. I don't have to give a test every Friday like PS! He likes this better. This way he can really learn the words, not just memorize them for a test and then forget them. Also, know what he loves the best about our day? When I read to him. I feel a little strange reading to him (he is big for his age) but he loves it. From what I am reading on these boards, the kids learn volumes from it, so I will keep on doing it. He also started piano lessons this week and is totally "into" this. This is something we have both wanted for him, but we were always so tied down with homework, school problems, etc. that we did not pursue it. So I will let some of the academics slide for a while until the newness wears off! His favorite math thing? We made homemade playdough last week and he loves rolling out shapes and dividing them into whatever fraction I call out. All I can say is we are both starting to relax a lot...I need to do this more than he does. He is loving HSing, not having to deal with the crap from PS that ADHD kids are exposed to. He is much happier and so are my husband and I. Our days are so busy because my husband works and I also work part time when my husband comes home, but so far it is worth it! Thanks for the support from this Board!! ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: DESCHOOLING AUTHOR: Ben Stevens DATE: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 1:45 p.m. Hi. I stumbled across this thread looking through homeschooling pages. Heres my story: I attended public school from the age of 4 (kindergarten) until the age of 13 (9th grade). I was about a year younger than all my classmates and I was more studious, so my socialization was overall a negative experience. I got bloody noses and a broken finger from my classmates (and we all know that socialization is the most important part of public school, right? [sarcasm]). Stupid rules bothered me, too. I've never believed in mindless oaths or pledges (which is what our Pledge of Allegiance is to me, since I was taught it before I could even understand what it meant); so, I never took the Pledge of Allegiance very seriously. In first grade, when I was caught not saying the pledge in a droning, brainwashed tone, I had to recite it by myself in front of the class. ...Then there was the time in second grade when my teacher wouldn't let me go to the bathroom, so I peed my pants right there in the classroom. What really made me resent public school, though, was being held back by my teachers. My third grade teacher actually *yelled* at me in front of the class for working ahead one page in a workbook. When I got to high school, my curriculum became more flexible...they put me in advanced classes with even *older* students. Needless to say, I wasn't very popular in those classes. Fortunately, when I was in eight grade, my mother heard about homeschooling. In ninth grade, I took three classes at the high school and did the other subjects at home. Tenth grade was pure unschooling. That's when I my interest in foreign languages and linguistics really picked up. If I had stayed in school, I still wouldn't be able to say more than "¡Hola! ¿Qué tal?" with a bad Pittsburgh accent. I got antsy studying alone at home, so I crammed grades 11 and 12 into one year and enrolled in college at age 16. Now I'm a college senior (age 20) majoring in Spanish, and able to speak other languages, as well... I know that was a lot crammed into one paragraph. In any case, the important thing is that leaving school was educationally the most influential decision of my life. It allowed me to explore subjects which public schools consider unimportant. Leaving school was a fairly easy process, with no legal trouble or social withdrawal. The only mistake I made when starting homeschooling was not to register with some agency to record my progress, since that interfered with my opportunity to choose a college. Basically, colleges were bothered by the lack of traditional grades (A-F) on my applications. Here's my advice to all homeschoolers: *Make sure your last years (grades 9-12) are well documented! Good SAT scores are not enough!* But college is another issue... Ben Stevens ======================================== MESSAGE: BEN!!!! AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 2:51 p.m. Response To: Re: DESCHOOLING Author: Ben Stevens Date: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 1:45 p.m. I loved reading your story. Thank you for stopping by! :-) >From a child/student point of view what kind of advice, recommendations or tips would you give to parents that are just pulling their child(ren) out of public/private school and are starting to homeschool? It seems like a lot of us start out trying to imitate "public school" (probably for lack of knowledge or lack of confidence) but slowly come to find out that if left alone, our children can and will develop their interests. Thanks! Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Grades & college AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 4:03 p.m. Response To: Re: DESCHOOLING Author: Ben Stevens Date: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 1:45 p.m. Ben, Thanks so much for telling us your story. As wonderful as it is to hear from other moms, it's especially inspiring to hear from the kids who've been there and done that! Also, I was always much younger than the children in my grade in school, so I KNOW what you're talking about. I imagine it might even be a little worse for a young male student. I *am* curious about the problems you had during the college application process, regarding your lack of grades. This turned out NOT to be a problem for my daughter, who unschooled throughout high school and had no grades of any kind...yet was accepted without hassle by all the colleges she applied to. In her case, the SAT scores WERE enough, coupled with her application essays and a written transcript (which did not report grades, but simple descriptions of the work she had done at home and in the real world). I have two theories that might account for the difference in your experience. (1) If you're 20 now, you must have been applying to colleges about 4 or 5 years ago. I wonder if college admissions policies had loosened up a little by the time my daughter applied in 1997. (2) Perhaps you were applying to different kinds of colleges. My daughter was looking only at small, private, liberal arts schools. Do you think this might be the difference? I'm looking forward to hearing more about your college application process and problems. What exactly did they tell you about their requirements for homeschooled applicants? Thanks again -- so much! -- for posting to this board. I really appreciate your input. Cerelle > Hi. > I stumbled across this thread looking through homeschooling > pages. Heres my story: > I attended public school from the age of 4 (kindergarten) > until the age of 13 (9th grade). I was about a year younger > than all my classmates and I was more studious, so my socialization > was overall a negative experience. I got bloody noses and > a broken finger from my classmates (and we all know that > socialization is the most important part of public school, > right? [sarcasm]). Stupid rules bothered me, too. I've never > believed in mindless oaths or pledges (which is what our > Pledge of Allegiance is to me, since I was taught it before > I could even understand what it meant); so, I never took > the Pledge of Allegiance very seriously. In first grade, > when I was caught not saying the pledge in a droning, brainwashed > tone, I had to recite it by myself in front of the class. > ...Then there was the time in second grade when my teacher > wouldn't let me go to the bathroom, so I peed my pants right > there in the classroom. What really made me resent public > school, though, was being held back by my teachers. My third > grade teacher actually *yelled* at me in front of the class > for working ahead one page in a workbook. When I got to > high school, my curriculum became more flexible...they put > me in advanced classes with even *older* students. Needless > to say, I wasn't very popular in those classes. Fortunately, > when I was in eight grade, my mother heard about homeschooling. > In ninth grade, I took three classes at the high school > and did the other subjects at home. Tenth grade was pure > unschooling. That's when I my interest in foreign languages > and linguistics really picked up. If I had stayed in school, > I still wouldn't be able to say more than "¡Hola! ¿Qué > tal?" with a bad Pittsburgh accent. I got antsy studying > alone at home, so I crammed grades 11 and 12 into one year > and enrolled in college at age 16. Now I'm a college senior > (age 20) majoring in Spanish, and able to speak other languages, > as well... > I know that was a lot crammed into one paragraph. In > any case, the important thing is that leaving school was > educationally the most influential decision of my life. > It allowed me to explore subjects which public schools consider > unimportant. Leaving school was a fairly easy process, with > no legal trouble or social withdrawal. The only mistake > I made when starting homeschooling was not to register with > some agency to record my progress, since that interfered > with my opportunity to choose a college. Basically, colleges > were bothered by the lack of traditional grades (A-F) on > my applications. Here's my advice to all homeschoolers: > *Make sure your last years (grades 9-12) are well documented! > Good SAT scores are not enough!* But college is another > issue... > Ben Stevens ======================================== MESSAGE: working in math and english AUTHOR: Tammy DATE: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 5:38 p.m. I have been reading the posts about deschooling/unschooling, and they sound wonderful. I do however have a question.....how do you work english and math in this way? I can pretty much come up with science, s studies, spelling, etc, but I am wondering about these other two subjects. Any suggestions as I am planning to try this with my son. I don't know if it will work out but if I don't try I will never know. I think it will be fun and relaxing. Relieve some stress for both of us. Thanks to all Tammy ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: working in math and english AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 6:03 p.m. Response To: working in math and english Author: Tammy Date: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 5:38 p.m. Hi, Tammy-- You didn't mention your son's age, so I'm not sure where to start. From a strictly "deschooling" point of view, the first thing would be to observe what kinds of mathematical and language activities your son is naturally drawn to, even when you're not setting up planned activities. What kinds of books and magazines does he like to read? Is he inclined to write letters to penpals or keep a journal? Does he enjoy making lists, composing stories, or writing poetry? Do you read aloud to him? Does he have money-making schemes? Is he a collector? Does he enjoy figuring out the best deals at the supermarket? How about dominoes, Yahtzee, Monopoly? (Again, without knowing his age, I'm not sure what to suggest.) Math is often the hardest thing for many homeschoolers to sneak into the "curriculum." One of the tricks is to stay aware of all the mathematical opportunities that come up every day. Let me know how old your son is, and I'll try to be more specific. Have fun! Cerelle > > I have been reading the posts about deschooling/unschooling, > and they sound wonderful. I do however have a question.....how > do you work english and math in this way? I can pretty much > come up with science, s studies, spelling, etc, but I am > wondering about these other two subjects. Any suggestions > as I am planning to try this with my son. I don't know if > it will work out but if I don't try I will never know. I > think it will be fun and relaxing. Relieve some stress for > both of us. Thanks to all > Tammy ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Diving Into Deschooling...Thanks for the lifejackets! AUTHOR: Tammy DATE: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 6:19 p.m. Response To: Diving Into Deschooling...Thanks for the lifejackets! Author: Pam Date: Friday, 11 September 1998, at 2:04 a.m. I have been there too, in a certain way. After pulling my son out of ps after 2nd grade, I found out just how much HE DIDN'T KNOW. He was so far behind on his reading. We really worked hard on this. At one point, crazy me, decided to let him go back to ps. He said he missed some of his friends. (not many kids in our nh). THIS WAS A BIG BIG MISTAKE! After giving him an entrance exam, required by the state on the last grade completed, which in his case was 4th grade, they were going to put him in 4th grade math. Well, evidently they didn't like the HIGH score he made on the 4th grade test so they gave him a 5th grade test, which of course he scored low because he had never had this. He was just starting 5th grade. Parent\teacher conf. time. I told them there was no way I would let him stay in 4th math because he didn't need to. They were determined and so was I. I pulled him back out and decided to NEVER put him back in as long as I could teach him. I too feel like my sons learning disability was the teacher disability. I can't help how I feel. I know there are some good teachers in schools, but I can't help feel there are less good and more bad. ======================================== MESSAGE: Tammy......Wow, what a headache... AUTHOR: Pam DATE: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 6:54 p.m. Response To: Re: Diving Into Deschooling...Thanks for the lifejackets! Author: Tammy Date: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 6:19 p.m. Wow, what a headache that must have been for you, but how womderful that you had a happy ending after all! I come from a family of educators, my mom was a kindergarten teacher, now retired, and I have cousins who are teachers as well, and even THEY agree that times have (sadly) changed. My mother was wary when I first told her of our decision to h.s. but thankfully, she has always been a hands off kind of grandma so she is now very supportive. Also in our state the dept. of education is under fire for all sorts of failures, to the point where people are more surprised if you tell them your kids are IN public school. Anyone who can afford it has long since pulled their kids out and at least put them into private school. Now I know though that even that is NO real alternative. Some of my cousin's kids are in prestigious private schools and they are soooo stressed...one child even has a nervous twitch! Homeschooling to me is not simply one option it is THE BEST one! Count me in as a homeschooling convert! Looking forward to another week of avid deschooling! :-) ======================================== MESSAGE: My sons age is ... AUTHOR: Tammy DATE: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 6:59 p.m. Response To: Re: working in math and english Author: Cerelle Date: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 6:03 p.m. Oops, sorry. My son is 11 years old. I have a hard time being "creative". If you could give me some detailed examples I would be so grateful. Just something to get me started. My son really enjoys math. This is his best subject and he is really good in it so anything to get us started and "out of the books" he would really enjoy. Thank you so much Tammy ======================================== MESSAGE: Enjoying the Process--This is the MAIN GOAL! Don't lose sight of that! (read on) AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 8:08 p.m. Response To: My sons age is ... Author: Tammy Date: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 6:59 p.m. But if he likes math and likes what he is doing then why change anything? Is he enjoying what you are doing now or is he resisting it? One of the main objectives (if not THE main objective) in DESCHOOLING is to encourage the child to see that learning is as natural as breathing and that learning is not about copying the public school way. The children that need to go thru a deschooling process are those who are burned out, the ones that are not self motivated, the ones that feel that learning equals a curriculum or a textbook and hate it because of that. A child without any passions or interests is probably desentisized to LIFE and needs to be deschooled. The public school atmosphere will do that to a child and sadly, homeschool can do that to a child too if he/she is never given much freedom to pursue their own interests. When a young child says he hates to read, what is he really saying? He is probably saying that he doesn't like the METHOD or the PROCESS of being taught how to read. You see? He probably hates the workbook or maybe he/she needs more time to develop. With a child like this I would really look and think twice what I was doing. The ultimate goal of reading instruction is to have a child READ WITH PLEASURE. Granted, not every proficient reader enjoys reading (my husband is one--although he does enjoy reading computer magazines, go figure!). Personally, I would probably feel like I've failed if I taught a child to read (the mechanics of reading) and he became a proficient reader but at the end disliked to read. If your child is enjoying the process of learning then you're hitting the right mark--even if it's through a workbook! I think it's great that you want to get more creative and you want to "get out of the books." Don't try so hard in becoming this "creative teacher" though because that's not necesarily what deschooling is about. It IS partly because we, as parents, need to also go thru a deschooling process and not rely so much on textbooks as the sole source of education. We need to think "outside the box" (like Cafi Cohen says) before our kids can. BUT..... Deschooling is about encouraging a child to become responsible about his/her own education and encouraging HIM or HER to become the creative one. Setting up a "creative agenda" for your child to follow will a lot of times defeat this purpose simply because you are putting yourself in the role that he/she needs to be in. You are feeding the knowledge and digesting it for them. They are not seeking it for themselves and digesting it on their own. This is not conducive to becoming an independent learner. Let him be the one that leads. Let him be the one that comes up with the ideas and the topics. Let him be the one who choses which way he learns best. Now having said all of this (which I hope makes sense to you...sometimes I write these things and wonder how it is coming across...does anyone even understand this mumbo jumbo I'm writing here?....LOL!) I will say that I have sometimes created an "agenda" for my children and I gone to great lengths to be "creative" and have set up what I would best describe as an artificial atmosphere to get them interested in something I think they need to learn. And you know what? It was OK. No major harm done! LOL! They learned what I wanted them to learn and we moved on. But the difference in the JOY of the learning process between my special "set ups" to the ones they have initiated themselves is sooo big. I've reached the ultimate objective of education when they find pleasure in the learning process and MORE ESPECIALLY when it is set up by their own hands!!!!!! Anyhow, was this even what you were asking???? ROTFL! Always rambling into oblivion, Giovanna > >My son really enjoys math. This is his > best subject and he is really good in it so anything to > get us started and "out of the books" he would > really enjoy. ======================================== MESSAGE: Hands-on math AUTHOR: Cafi DATE: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 8:10 p.m. Response To: My sons age is ... Author: Tammy Date: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 6:59 p.m. > > Oops, sorry. My son is 11 years old. I have a hard > time being "creative". If you could give me some > detailed examples I would be so grateful. Just something > to get me started. My son really enjoys math. This is his > best subject and he is really good in it so anything to > get us started and "out of the books" he would > really enjoy. For books & games with GREAT ideas for recreational math, mental math, hands-on math, and unit-study math, try the following: A Collection of Math Lessons by Marilyn Burns (hands-on math unit studies) Mental Math published by Dale Seymour Family Math Monopoly, 24-Game For Real Life math --> Estimate miles per gallon everytime you fill up; keep a log & calculator in the car and check estimate against calculator number crunching. Calculate how much paint to cover a room, based on measurements & recommendations on can of paint. Double or halve a recipe. "Play" the stock market, beginning with a virtual $100,000. Calculate time to travel from one city to the next based on 60 mph. Calculate time to travel around the world. Subscribe to one of several math teaser/contest pages I've seen on the web. Read and cross-check any of Amy Dacyczyn's Tightwad Gazette budget/product use studies to determine how to stretch a dollar further. Learn to mentally calculate/estimate 10% off, 20% off, etc. Cafi in CA ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: My sons age is ... AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 8:45 p.m. Response To: My sons age is ... Author: Tammy Date: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 6:59 p.m. Tammy, I'm going to cheat a little bit and offer excerpts from a letter I wrote earlier this week to someone else on the board (this was private e-mail, not posted, so I'm not really repeating myself, I hope). **** If you can find GAMES Magazine at a bookstore or library, I'll bet your son would love it. There are puzzles of all kinds in every issue: mathematical, visual, verbal, logical, you-name-it. Dell Crosswords publishes collections of math puzzles that are fun. They're just like crossword puzzles, but you have to solve math problems to find the answers (and do some guessing to figure out where the answers go). We've enjoyed those. If you can't find them readily, you might try writing to the address given in the regular crossword puzzle books (you can find them at most newsstands). My public library has several books of mathematical puzzles and games. Some are found in the games section (somewhere in the 700s, I think), and others are in the education section. (Look for titles like "Math Games for the Classroom" -- that sort of thing.) Still others are in the mathematics section of the library. Also check the bookstore's math section for titles like "Family Math" and others that have good ideas in them. [I see that Cafi has already listed other titles to look for -- good for her!] I have an old book my dad gave me, called "536 Puzzles & Curious Problems," by Henry Earnest Dudeney. I don't know if it's still in print, but you might keep a lookout for others like it. We love stuff like that, and much of it is mathematical in nature. Then there are the magazines, Arithmetic Teacher and Mathematics Teacher, which the local junior college subscribes to for their periodical collection. I get some great ideas from those sometimes. [Caution: There are some school-y things in each issue that I wouldn't necessarily recommend to someone who's trying to get away from a worksheet mindset, but there are also projects and interesting letters from interesting people regarding math ed.] I think the most important thing, math-wise, is making sure the kids really UNDERSTAND what they're doing, be able to visualize it, and not just follow a series of steps to get an answer. I like to dig down deep into the concepts behind things like square numbers, primes, exponents, etc. And we don't overlook the historical figures behind mathematics, either. Reading about Euclid and Newton and Archimedes and Pythagoras helps put the math in context for us, and gives us some math heroes to admire. ****** OK, the rest of this is fresh off the press. :-) (And sorry this is getting so long.) Don't overlook things like woodworking projects, cooking, 3-D artwork, etc., as a source of math experience. One of the coolest things we've done around here in a long time: the 6-foot-diameter geodesic dome we made last month with newspapers and staples! The instructions for this project are on the Web at YES Magazine's site (link below -- when you get there, click on "Projects"). Encourage your son to discover his own algorithms and methods for problem-solving. I think this does more to stretch the "math muscle" than any amount of following instructions in a math text and doing practice problems. If a child can find the correct answer to a problem, using his own brain to discover a path to that answer, he is really giving his neurons a chance to fire! Be open to different ways of attacking a problem, rather than insisting he do it "the way the book says to." Hope this gives you an idea or two, and I apologize again for being so long-winded! Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: This board has been an inspiration AUTHOR: sharon DATE: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 10:12 p.m. I am so glad that I've found this board. We brought home six of our children last year from government schools. After the first few days I realized that what we were doing was not going to work for our children -- maybe it was me it wasn't going to work for. :-) By the end of the school year I felt like I was "hitting the ball and dragging George - hitting the ball and dragging George" but was not confident in relinquishing control - testing - responsibility - answering to family and local officials etc. etc. When I realized that we were becoming distant with one another....something that government school had already given them a head start with, I knew something had to change. I suppose I thought that people who approached education in this manner were either, please excuse me ladies and gentlemen, empty headed and/or lazy. I had learned long years ago to listen to their hearts, but it didn't click with me that I could also listen to thier hearts when it came to their education. This summer I began to tune into what interested them, because I knew if we had another year like we just finished, it would be back to government schools. Without very much reading on the subject and some encouragement with an on-line acquaintence, I just plunged in. It has been a good month. Finding this thread has been icing on the cake. I found myself downloading the pieces that interested me onto a floppy...well I've read about half of this thread and am on my second floppy. I've gleaned a lot from you folks and I really do appreciate the time that is taken to open this up for discussion. I still do not feel like I "have all of my ducks in a row"...I may never, but it has opened up a great deal to my children that I did not think was possible. It is so good to see the twinkle in their eyes when they learn something new, and to have our home filled with laughter once again. I've been rambling, I know, but thanks again. sharon ======================================== MESSAGE: Sharon, your post is an inspiration, too! AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 12:23 a.m. Response To: This board has been an inspiration Author: sharon Date: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 10:12 p.m. Six kids? Wow! How old are they? Things I can't help commenting on... > I suppose I thought > that people who approached education in this manner were > either, please excuse me ladies and gentlemen, empty headed > and/or lazy. Ha ha! You're excused. Several years ago, a fellow homeschooler confided to me that she was thinking of buying a curriculum (after years of winging it without one). "Why?" I asked, just out of curiosity. "Well," she said, "it might be EASIER if we could just go along with someone else's plan each day. I'm thinking of taking the lazy way out." I guess lazy is in the eye of the beholder. > I had learned long years ago to listen to their > hearts, but it didn't click with me that I could also listen > to thier hearts when it came to their education. Great observation. Isn't it funny how we learn to separate education from everything else, as if it weren't part and parcel of our daily lives? Deschooling is the gradual realization (although it can sometimes come suddenly, in the form of a blinding revelation) that learning does not require being in a special place (school building or at the "school" table at home) at a special time of day (8:30-3:30 or 9:00-12:00), doing a particular kind of activity (working out of textbooks). > This summer > I began to tune into what interested them, because I knew > if we had another year like we just finished, it would be > back to government schools. If you have the time to respond, I'd love to hear exactly how you went about "tuning in." Was it simply a matter of paying attention to how they amused themselves, or noticing the kinds of questions they asked? Several participants here have been curious about how to "prepare themselves" for deschooling with their children, and I think the tuning-in stage is the first step. Maybe you could tell us a little more about that. > ...It is > so good to see the twinkle in their eyes when they learn > something new, and to have our home filled with laughter > once again. I've been rambling, I know, but thanks again. You could ramble like that all day, as far as I'm concerned. :-D The old twinkle in the eye counts for a lot, doesn't it? I think there are few things as rewarding as seeing the spark come back! Hope you have a wonderful year...please come back and visit with us often. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Something else I just thought of... AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 12:59 a.m. Response To: Re: My sons age is ... Author: Cerelle Date: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 8:45 p.m. When a child shows interest in something that you already know a good bit about or have a deep grounding in, it's easy pass along your own knowlege about that subject. For instance, if you were a musician and your son asked a musical question, you'd have the answer ready. You wouldn't need to get out the music encyclopedia. At the same time, your son might get the erroneous impression that you were *born* knowing all about music, and he wouldn't have an opportunity to observe how people go about finding out about things -- at least not in the process of getting his music question answered automatically by his musically omniscient mom! It's those subject areas we're a little weak in (I'm pretty shaky when it comes to math, let me tell you) that give us a chance to SHINE as homeschooling parents. Weird, but true. Because that's when we have to stretch a little bit. My son's interest in physics has been an incredible stimulus for me. Because he was interested, I got interested. If he were a little older, I suppose we could have looked into having him enroll in an elementary physics course at the local college, but since he's only 13, that doesn't seem like such a great option to me. At this point, he's not a physics GENIUS...he's just interested. So we've been reading some books (not textbooks, mind you, but books about physics and physicists), some together and some independently, thinking up some experiments, and comparing notes with each other about what we've been learning. It's been SO MUCH FUN! Every day, we have new things to tell the other about. Hunter will say, "Mama, you've GOT to read this chapter. It's amazing." I guess you could say we've created our own "cooperative learning environment." Somehow it just seems like there's more excitement around here when I'm a fellow student (even if we're not learning about the same things), rather than the resident expert on something. This could be the case with math, too. In fact, I'm seriously considering cracking open that calculus book I've been saving for a rainy day! ;-) Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: While we're on the subject of Math... AUTHOR: Laura in MD DATE: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 3:27 a.m. Response To: My sons age is ... Author: Tammy Date: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 6:59 p.m. I'm just wondering if all those giving suggestions on Math alteratives have used these ideas as the base curricula or in addition to a Math text? My dd hates workbooks, and I'm looking for a hands on approach for early elementary, I know it's all supposed to be hands on at this age but still I'm finding lots of workbooks/text included! ugh. But, I think both of us need a curriculum as a springboard... TIA from a seriously Math phobic- not creative at Math because I don't know where to go with it- I'm not kidding- Mom! :) > > Oops, sorry. My son is 11 years old. I have a hard > time being "creative". If you could give me some > detailed examples I would be so grateful. Just something > to get me started. My son really enjoys math. This is his > best subject and he is really good in it so anything to > get us started and "out of the books" he would > really enjoy. > Thank you so much > Tammy ======================================== MESSAGE: More about Enjoying the Process..why the PROCESS is more important than the CONTENT AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 5:40 a.m. The following is a quote from the book "WISDOM'S WAY OF LEARNING" by Marilyn Howshall. This book changed my life and truly sent me on a lifetime path to DESCHOOLING. This book spoke to me on many levels not just on an educational one. The book does have a heavy Christian bent and some of what I am about to quote relates to God but I hope our non-Christian friends will also glean from this and be inspired by it. "Both the process and the product of learning have an important role to play in education. However, for the Christian, priority should be given to a natural process of learning, allowing God to cause the growth. The product will surface in amazingly natural ways when given the opportunity to do so." A CONTRAST BETWEEN THE PRODUCT EMPHASIS AND PROCESS EMPHASIS A Product Emphasis-- The "What" of Learning *What to learn; content focused; content is the first consideration. *The parent's mind thinks about "stuff". The mind is filled with curriculum, subjects, content of learning, projects to complete. *The parent is governed by externals--the trappings of education, curriculum, procedures and techniques. *Teacher tends to incorporate too much "knowledge" into the learning experience. *When a premature product is strived for, it will be shallow, of low quality, artificial and impersonal. *Immediate gratification of the product produces false security. (In other words, you covered what the scope and sequence chart told you to cover for Grade 3....therefore your child knows everything he/she needs to know.) NOW, COMPARE WHAT IS UP THERE TO A PROCESS EMPHASIS. A PROCESS EMPHASIS-- The "How" of Learning *How to learn; method focused; child's heart is first consideration. *The parent's mind thinks about "system"--how to provide children with a true education. Foundation laying, seed planting, character shaping ideas and methods fill the mind. *The parent is governed by internalized biblical principles that serve to shape a lifestyle conducive to learning. *Teacher drastically reduces the content in favor of a product that truly reflects the student. *When the product is postponed in favor of a strong process, a high quality, relational, and personal learning experience is acquired. *Delayed gratification of the product produces patience through perseverance and builds faith, true security. ------------------------------------------ She goes on to write: "We all want to have something of consequence to show for the effort expended in our children's learning process; not simply outward products, but more importantly what we want the product to represent--mature character and an educated mind. In our race to acquire the product, we may dangerously shorten the process itself, which is the very thing that will yield the vital inner growth we want to see demonstrated in our children." "We will have either a product or a process mindset governing our homeschool experience. PRODUCT IS THE RESULT OR OUTGROWTH OF SOMETHING. When the product is our focus and content our first consideration, the need for short-term gratification will short-change our children, robbing them of the opportunity to acquire for themselves a true and lasting education." "PROCESS IS THE GRADUAL MOVING FORWARD FROM ONE THING TO ANOTHER; A LOGICAL PROGRESSION. It is the METHOD, MEANS, and HOW of learning. To the extent that the learning process is shortened, the lasting benefit to the student will be diminished. The process needs to be our focus and the child's heart our first consideration. If the process is the priority then enough time will be allowed for a love of learning to develop, ultimately yielding a highter quality product. The process of a person's physical and spiritual growth is characterized by stretching, developing, maturing and changing--SLOWLY. Growth is a natural process only the Lord can cause." "The influence we have as parents is to plant and water the seed. We can determine the type of outgrowth and product, according to the quality of seeds we choose to plant. How well we care for them will ultimately determine the yield of our harvest. However, we cannot cause the growth nor stop it. Only God has to cause the growth based upon what and how we plant. (Galatians 6:7)" "As it is with the growth process, so it is with the learning process. In a natural learning process, the child's intellect has a chance to develop without the pressure of premature expectations. The student will gradually move from one learning experience to another; from one season or stage of development to another. However, as is often the case, what could have been a NATURAL learning process, where the child is allowed to actively pursue leraning, gets reduced to "push and shove". Most of learning is either done for him, or he is not allowed enough time to internalize the knowledge and make it his own before he is expected to produce a product demonstrating what he "knows." There is little challenge for him; thus deadening his desire to learn. The parent continues in this fashion because she falsely thinks that in some way she can cause the child's learning or growth. However, what has really happened is that she has only succeeded in cause her child to superficially "learn" vast amounts of content, knowledge and information. Sadly she calls this "good." Knowledge in and of itself does not cause growth and development. The means with which the knowledge was acquired and the time expended in the pursuit will determine the growth and the product quality." ......... Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Listening to their hearts AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 5:52 a.m. Response To: This board has been an inspiration Author: sharon Date: Sunday, 13 September 1998, at 10:12 p.m. > I had learned long years ago to listen to their > hearts, but it didn't click with me that I could also listen > to thier hearts when it came to their education. ........... Isn't it funny how we would NEVER dream of pushing a baby to walk before he is ready but yet we are very quick to do this regarding their intellectual growth? "Ok. Baby is now 11 months old so now it's time for her to learn to walk." So you go out and buy a "Unit study" that will teach your baby how to walk and you use it because you want to make sure your child walks right when she needs to be walking. This curriculum has all of the creative ideas needed to make sure they are having FUN while learning to walk because you have to make it fun so they won't be bored. Ridiculous?????? Yes it is. Learning to walk is a very NATURAL process. Many things need to happen developmentally for a child to walk. When the child is ready, they walk and we the parents, celebrate the development with lots of clapping, and rooting. But why is it that we think it is different with their intellectual and spiritual growth??? Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: When I use math texts... AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 6:10 a.m. Response To: While we're on the subject of Math... Author: Laura in MD Date: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 3:27 a.m. Tammy, I should begin by saying that math is not the area I'm most confident in. The early years weren't too scary, though. We kept math texts on hand (used ones, bought cheap at sales), but rarely used them. By rarely, I mean no more than 20 or so days out of any given year. Those basic operations (addition, substraction, multiplication, division) and concepts (fractions, decimals, percentages, etc.) seemed to be things the kids could pick up fairly easily through non-textbook activities. Whenever I got nervous, I'd use the texts as a reference (the "what are we overlooking" reflex...), or use them to reinforce a concept that was giving someone difficulty around here. For high school math, I'm not that brave or confident, so my daughters have used the books more heavily to learn algebra and geometry. I still wouldn't characterize their textbook use as a daily, regular thing, though. We've used them to supplement other forms of math learning--computer programs, for instance. Maybe the best way to explain how we've used the books is to compare it to the way you order a la carte items off a restaurant menu. If you think one of the kids needs help with a certain procedure, it's convenient to have a few texts on hand. Often, I'd consult the text myself for ideas on how to present a given concept, and then help the kids informally. I've always tried to stress mental math. We might quiz each other during car rides, with questions like, "What number, doubled, and then doubled again, gives 12?" Keeping mathematics on our minds is half the battle, I think. It has to filter through our daily activities and not just stay relegated to "an hour of math" each morning. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Sharon, your post is an inspiration, too! AUTHOR: sharon DATE: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 8:39 a.m. Response To: Sharon, your post is an inspiration, too! Author: Cerelle Date: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 12:23 a.m. Cerelle, > Six kids? Wow! How old are they? 14yod, 13yod, 12yos, 10yod, 8yos, 7yod. However we do have a 27 yod and a 22yos. We've had 22 years of government school and if you'll pardon the expression have "been to hell and back" with every aspect of it. I do not know why we see the government handle so poorly in their affairs of their business and then expect to see their school system to be without blemish and something to be revered. Both our older children are envious of their siblings that they have the opportunity to be educated at home. They both were run through the mill and were very bored, undermotived and turned out not to be independent thinkers...something they are working on now. Our daughter now is reading up on home educating and is preparing to bring our granddaughter home from government school...and keep the others home from the start. > If you have the time to respond, I'd love to hear exactly > how you went about "tuning in." Was it simply > a matter of paying attention to how they amused themselves, > or noticing the kinds of questions they asked? Several participants > here have been curious about how to "prepare themselves" > for deschooling with their children, and I think the tuning-in > stage is the first step. Maybe you could tell us a little > more about that. Well, what I have done this summer was begin to ask questions and observe. While listening to their hearts it is not always what is said but what is left unsaid. Our 7yod has interest in Indians, space, building forts, planting. Sounds like we have a tom boy does it not? This is the one that came to me when she was two years old and said "Mom when I grow up I'm going to be a lion just like you!" and walked away. I remember thinking "Oh my, what have I given birth to!?" Our 8yos is CONSUMED with building, building drawing and more building. And recently has an interest in how electricity is used with building. (He's the one that hates pushing a pencil) Our 10yod has her head in the clouds literally, and stars and moon and the solar system and the dirt, with FLOWERS, insects and WORMS. How many girls do you know have said "Mommy may I please have some worms, I will feed them every day, Pleeeeeese?" Our 12 yos, is interested in "how" things work and "why" they work under one set of circumstances and not another. I have him e-mail his uncle (a neuclear engineer) and they get all excited over the computer. Our 13 yod is money minded...how to make it...how to start a business, how to run a business, how to compare prices, where to get freebies. Sounds like their oldest sister revisited. Our 14 yod has children and music on the brain. She's enjoyed mothering her younger siblings and neices and nephews and doesn't care who's children are in her arms as long as they are full. She also has a passion for mucic. So I've been gathering information such as this and looking for ways to give them an outlet to use it in the education, and or let them be educated IN them. Is that how it is done Cerelle? Now to direct everything that I've seen....any suggestions? :-) Well, I smell something in the kitchen. I hope it is not another "unsupervised" experiment that Joseph and Michael have undertaken. :-) sharon ======================================== MESSAGE: I LOOOOVE THIS! AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 8:55 a.m. Response To: Re: Sharon, your post is an inspiration, too! Author: sharon Date: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 8:39 a.m. > Our 10yod has her head in the clouds literally, and > stars and moon and the solar system and the dirt, with FLOWERS, > insects and WORMS. How many girls do you know have said > "Mommy may I please have some worms, I will feed them > every day, Pleeeeeese?" MEEEE!!! I KNOW ONE!!! I have four year old daughter that sounds just like this. A TOTAL NATURALIST! She loves nature, animals, peace and love!!! ROTFL! This girl of mine would have made a perfect HIPPIE!!!! > So I've been gathering information such as this and > looking for ways to give them an outlet to use it in the > education, and or let them be educated IN them. Is that > how it is done Cerelle? Now to direct everything that I've > seen....any suggestions? :-) Well, I smell something in > the kitchen. I hope it is not another "unsupervised" > experiment that Joseph and Michael have undertaken. :-) Oh Sharon! You know what I love the most about what you've written here? The fact as I read the descriptions of your children I realize that you have really taken the time out to GET TO KNOW your children. Very inspiring! You have definitely taken the first and most crucial step toward a deschooling lifestyle. You realized that each of your children is uniquely special and that a one-size-fits-all program just isn't going to work to encourage and help their giftings flourish! Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Listening to their hearts AUTHOR: sharon DATE: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 8:55 a.m. Response To: Listening to their hearts Author: Giovanna Date: Monday, 14 September 1998, at 5:52 a.m. Yes it is. Learning to walk is a very NATURAL process. > Many things need to happen developmentally for a child to > walk. When the child is ready, they walk and we the parents, > celebrate the development with lots of clapping, and rooting. > > But why is it that we think it is different with their > intellectual and spiritual growth??? > Giovanna You see Giovanna, I believe that every one of us has been created with gifts and abilities that need to be unlocked. It is the desire of my heart that each of our children become proficient in what was placed inside them. I also believe, because of my own convictions, that we need God's direction in doing that or they will be discouraged. So that is how we desire to approach their education as well, because that is how we've always handled their hearts spiritually. I just do not know why on earth it has taken us so long to see this. It has really made for a RICHER life for us all. sharon ========================================Back to the TopBack to the Digest Index