Digests from the KALEIDOSCAPES MONTHLY TOPIC
(HOMESCHOOLING) DISCUSSION BOARD
These are the original digests from Kaleidoscapes' MONTHLY TOPIC discussion boards.
They were hosted by two amazing gals: Giovanna Gomez and Cerelle Woods Simmons.
The boards are no longer available (thus, links to them won't work); you can, however, still
find many of the same wonderful folks who posted on the boards at Network 54.
Finally, there are no banners or pop-up ads throughout these digests.
Hopefully you will consider shopping through our Amazon links occasionally.
(Thanks!)Back to the Digest Index
Deschooling Digest (part 1)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 04:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Deschooling! ======================================== MESSAGE: DESCHOOLING....please post your experiences...how did it go when you took your child out of public school? AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Wednesday, 26 August 1998, at 8:00 p.m. Let me share my experience. First of all, my children have never gone to a preschool or day care of any sort (Well, I take that back. Andrew did go to a sitter for the first 8 months of his life but that was it) and they've never attended public school. I did not go through the "deschooling process" with them. But guess who needed to be deschooled? ME! I began homeschooling with tremendous plans. I had a schedule, curriculum, set times for everything. My son was four!!! I laugh about it now but I was rather serious back then. I remember purchasing Ann Ward's "Learning At Home" because of recommendations by Mary Pride. Back then I just did not know any better and thought this was the best "start" for my child. What happened? We lasted 4 weeks! :-) I can't say that we were burned out. I wasn't doing heavy duty stuff with my child at all. It just seemed that "school" was so contrived, so unnatural. I remember clearly one afternoon reading aloud to my son about DEER because the program said we should check out this one specific book. We had to learn about mammals and this book would be good. My son was soooo bored. I realized this was not what I wanted. I was sad. Was homeschooling going to work? My son was not enthusiastic at all and I knew the approach I was using was totally wrong but I didn't know of any other way. I really didn't. I knew something had to change. I decided to take a break from this and to spend some time educating myself. I knew something was wrong but didn't know what the answer was. I remember reading Diana Waring's "Beyond Survival" and thinking how neat this mom was. What wisdom! How could I duplicate that? I remember praying a lot. My deschooling happened slowly. It took about a year. I hear that children that are pulled out of public school need about a year to deprogram themselves and to start looking at education from a different point of view. Ironically, me (the mom and the so-called "teacher") would also need about a year to look at education outside of the "box". That year was wonderful and I learned so much. Besides, "Beyond Survival" I came across a book that totally changed my life. This book was written by Marilyn Howshall and it's called "Wisdom's Way of Learning." The book has a strong Christian bent so it's possible that non-Christians may be uncomfortable with it. The truth in this book and in Marilyn Howshall's message though pierced my heart. After reading it, I knew exactly how I wanted our homeschool to be. I wanted it to be a lifestyle of learning and not just some thing we did for several hours out of the day. I'm sure there some wonderful stories out there about deschooling. Tell us what happened in your home. What things did you do? What things did you NOT do? How long did it take? How are things different now? Looking forward to everyone's comments! Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: So...are you gonna write that book??? *smile* AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Wednesday, 26 August 1998, at 9:01 p.m. Response To: DESCHOOLING....please post your experiences...how did it go when you took your child out of public school? Author: Giovanna Date: Wednesday, 26 August 1998, at 8:00 p.m. My deschooling happened gradually, too. I had seen how much Ariel (age 7 at the time) hated being in school, so I already knew there were some classroom conventions I definitely didn't want to duplicate. But at the same time, I felt extremely pressured to "perform" as a home teacher, and I, too, began with outrageous ambitions and the weight of a schoolish mentality that had solidified my brain after all those years of being in school, myself (not to mention having had an awful lot of schoolteachers in the family). So -- in spite of never using a canned curriculum and in spite of being committed to a creative education for my daughter (and, eventually, her siblings), it took some time to shake off those old attitudes. Each time another long-held assumption fell away, my reaction was, "Oh! Wow! NOW I see more clearly." It was the strangest thing. As those layers peeled off, one by one, the world got so much bigger and brighter! It was like going from Kansas to Oz (only, unlike Dorothy, I've had NO desire to "go back home"). I think the transition from school to home went smoothly for us because Ariel hadn't been in school very long. She was ecstatic over being set free, too. Still, of my 3 children, she is the one who most appreciates instruction -- that is, she actually liked it when I occasionally played "teacher." The other two, without those school experiences, have always been a little more independent. They don't expect me to guide their education and seem to feel more confident about hacking their own path through the jungle of knowledge. One thing I've NEVER done is give tests or grades. Well, maybe the infrequent spelling test...but even then, I didn't give grades. It was more like, "Oops, you missed this one. Try it again." As teenagers, my two younger kids educate themselves pretty much the way adults do. They read books, ask questions, try things out, practice and practice, look things up, seek out experts, search the 'Net, etc. In other words, they pretty much copy what they've seen us do! It's a far, far cry from what's happening down at the local high school. Um, I think I've wandered off topic, Giovanna! But sheesh, it all happened so long ago -- I almost have to twist my mind into a knot to remember how I perceived education back then. Seems like it was in a distant galaxy, long, long ago! Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: DESCHOOLING....please post your experiences...how did it go when you took your child out of public school? AUTHOR: Robin S DATE: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 3:13 a.m. Response To: DESCHOOLING....please post your experiences...how did it go when you took your child out of public school? Author: Giovanna Date: Wednesday, 26 August 1998, at 8:00 p.m. How did I become deschooled? Hmmmm... I'm probably in the process as I write this. We pulled our son out of a private school last year, he went there k-4, and the first thing I did was to buy the same curriculum he had been used to, and proceded to 'do school.' We both burned out. By the end of the year we were using the books as more of a reference than anything else. This year, thanks to the friends I've made on this discussion board, we're going with his intrest. He is into ailens (i.e. Star Wars) I bought him a book about the weapons and armor from Star Wars, and he is devouring it. It isn't the classics that I wanted him to love reading, but I have to ask myself the same question that Cynthia Tobias asks, "what's the point?" Is my main goal to get classics in him, or is it to develope in him a love and excitement of for life long learning. I have to admit, letting go of those text books is not easy, and I still struggle with "what if he never wants to learn anything, and is completely content to watch tv and play computer games the rest of his life?" But, that is the main struggle in life, not to control or try and fix everyone's problems, but to rely completely on the Lord. So with the support I get on this board, and total faith in God, my prayer is that this year I will relax and let up, and give my son the freedom to learn. Robin > Let me share my experience. > First of all, my children have never gone to a preschool > or day care of any sort (Well, I take that back. Andrew > did go to a sitter for the first 8 months of his life but > that was it) and they've never attended public school. I > did not go through the "deschooling process" with > them. > But guess who needed to be deschooled? > ME! > I began homeschooling with tremendous plans. I had > a schedule, curriculum, set times for everything. My son > was four!!! I laugh about it now but I was rather serious > back then. I remember purchasing Ann Ward's "Learning > At Home" because of recommendations by Mary Pride. > Back then I just did not know any better and thought this > was the best "start" for my child. > What happened? > We lasted 4 weeks! > :-) > I can't say that we were burned out. I wasn't doing > heavy duty stuff with my child at all. It just seemed that > "school" was so contrived, so unnatural. I remember > clearly one afternoon reading aloud to my son about DEER > because the program said we should check out this one specific > book. We had to learn about mammals and this book would > be good. My son was soooo bored. I realized this was not > what I wanted. I was sad. Was homeschooling going to work? > My son was not enthusiastic at all and I knew the approach > I was using was totally wrong but I didn't know of any other > way. I really didn't. > I knew something had to change. I decided to take a > break from this and to spend some time educating myself. > I knew something was wrong but didn't know what the answer > was. I remember reading Diana Waring's "Beyond Survival" > and thinking how neat this mom was. What wisdom! How could > I duplicate that? I remember praying a lot. > My deschooling happened slowly. It took about a year. > I hear that children that are pulled out of public school > need about a year to deprogram themselves and to start looking > at education from a different point of view. Ironically, > me (the mom and the so-called "teacher") would > also need about a year to look at education outside of the > "box". That year was wonderful and I learned so > much. Besides, "Beyond Survival" I came across > a book that totally changed my life. This book was written > by Marilyn Howshall and it's called "Wisdom's Way of > Learning." The book has a strong Christian bent so > it's possible that non-Christians may be uncomfortable with > it. The truth in this book and in Marilyn Howshall's message > though pierced my heart. After reading it, I knew exactly > how I wanted our homeschool to be. I wanted it to be a lifestyle > of learning and not just some thing we did for several hours > out of the day. > I'm sure there some wonderful stories out there about > deschooling. Tell us what happened in your home. What things > did you do? What things did you NOT do? How long did it > take? How are things different now? > Looking forward to everyone's comments! > Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: DESCHOOLING....please post your experiences...how did it go when you took your child out of public school? AUTHOR: Linda P. DATE: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 4:02 a.m. Response To: DESCHOOLING....please post your experiences...how did it go when you took your child out of public school? Author: Giovanna Date: Wednesday, 26 August 1998, at 8:00 p.m. We were just laughing about this, the other day!! Last school year (our first), after K-3 in ps, I started out wanting the freedom and lack of structure, but my son, ever the organized one, wanted "school". I think he was worried if we didn't do things like they did in school that he wouldn't be learning as he should. The first day he wanted to know what time "recess" was and promptly told me I should write down a schedule for him so he would know what time each class period would be. He just wasn't comfortable. If I didn't schedule things, he did. I felt like I was working with Hitler!!! The change was very slow. First he realized how wonderful it was to have a snack or break whenever he needed it. Then realized it was nice to finish whenever we finished. And we are still progressing from there. Yesterday, after our nature hike, he asked, "Was that for school or for fun?" I asked, "What do you think it should be?" He said, "I guess it's the same anyway." Perhaps this year will be more relaxed for both of us. Linda P. > Let me share my experience. > First of all, my children have never gone to a preschool > or day care of any sort (Well, I take that back. Andrew > did go to a sitter for the first 8 months of his life but > that was it) and they've never attended public school. I > did not go through the "deschooling process" with > them. > But guess who needed to be deschooled? > ME! > I began homeschooling with tremendous plans. I had > a schedule, curriculum, set times for everything. My son > was four!!! I laugh about it now but I was rather serious > back then. I remember purchasing Ann Ward's "Learning > At Home" because of recommendations by Mary Pride. > Back then I just did not know any better and thought this > was the best "start" for my child. > What happened? > We lasted 4 weeks! > :-) > I can't say that we were burned out. I wasn't doing > heavy duty stuff with my child at all. It just seemed that > "school" was so contrived, so unnatural. I remember > clearly one afternoon reading aloud to my son about DEER > because the program said we should check out this one specific > book. We had to learn about mammals and this book would > be good. My son was soooo bored. I realized this was not > what I wanted. I was sad. Was homeschooling going to work? > My son was not enthusiastic at all and I knew the approach > I was using was totally wrong but I didn't know of any other > way. I really didn't. > I knew something had to change. I decided to take a > break from this and to spend some time educating myself. > I knew something was wrong but didn't know what the answer > was. I remember reading Diana Waring's "Beyond Survival" > and thinking how neat this mom was. What wisdom! How could > I duplicate that? I remember praying a lot. > My deschooling happened slowly. It took about a year. > I hear that children that are pulled out of public school > need about a year to deprogram themselves and to start looking > at education from a different point of view. Ironically, > me (the mom and the so-called "teacher") would > also need about a year to look at education outside of the > "box". That year was wonderful and I learned so > much. Besides, "Beyond Survival" I came across > a book that totally changed my life. This book was written > by Marilyn Howshall and it's called "Wisdom's Way of > Learning." The book has a strong Christian bent so > it's possible that non-Christians may be uncomfortable with > it. The truth in this book and in Marilyn Howshall's message > though pierced my heart. After reading it, I knew exactly > how I wanted our homeschool to be. I wanted it to be a lifestyle > of learning and not just some thing we did for several hours > out of the day. > I'm sure there some wonderful stories out there about > deschooling. Tell us what happened in your home. What things > did you do? What things did you NOT do? How long did it > take? How are things different now? > Looking forward to everyone's comments! > Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Children in public school AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 5:20 a.m. Response To: So...are you gonna write that book??? *smile* Author: Cerelle Date: Wednesday, 26 August 1998, at 9:01 p.m. > I think the transition from school to home went smoothly > for us because Ariel hadn't been in school very long. Cerelle: I think the longer a child has been in public school--the longer his deschooling will take. I don't know that from personal experience but I know of a friend who have started to home school when her child was in already in late elementary (she has four children.) Her daughter wanted out of school and she happily abliged. The joy is not there yet though. She complains and mom thinks she has done something wrong. But mom jumped right into academics and this darling young lady probably had this impression that it would be different at home. She called me the other night. She was very weary. She said, "If Sarah was in school she wouldn't be allowed to complain like this." "No she probably wouldn't be allowed to complain like that", I agreed. And then I added, "But I would bet she would be complaining inside her heart. With you she knows she can take it one more step and actually verbalize it. Just because she didn't talk about her displeasure out loud to her teachers, doesn't mean she didn't feel it." Effective DESCHOOLING is taking the complaining OUT OF THE HEART (not just out of the lips) and bringing the child to a point where they see learning as an adventure--not a horrible chore. But how is that done? What steps should be taken (or not taken)? Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: DESCHOOLING....What a great topic! I encourage all of the new hsers to read these posts! AUTHOR: Jole DATE: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 6:42 a.m. Response To: DESCHOOLING....please post your experiences...how did it go when you took your child out of public school? Author: Giovanna Date: Wednesday, 26 August 1998, at 8:00 p.m. This is our second go 'round hsing. The first attempt was horrible for all of us. We had textbooks and workbooks, a scheduled start time, etc. Toward the end of that year it all fell apart and I felt like a complete failure. My children thought their mother was a complete lunatic and asked to return to ps. I let them. I had never heard of the concept of deschooling eventhough I did belong to a support group at the time. Well, last year my oldest ds asked to hs again. I was thrilled but knew I had to find a different support group and a way to make this work. I did and the individuals in this group introduced me to the idea of deschooling and child-led learning. I must admit, I was very sceptical for many, many months. I remember one support group meeting where I sobbed, because I didn't thing my children would ever love learning again! Like Giovanna, I have had to deschool myself. This is no small task either, because I teach post-secondary education. Over the summer I began to see proof that it works. My younger ds has a great love of science and has began reading for pleasure. My older ds still needs some more time, but he told his grandmother he learns more at home than he ever did at school! This is from a child with whom I have been VERY hands-off! He has told me he wants to learn Japanese this year so he will be able to communicate with our exchange student next year. He would never have wanted to do this if I had tried to force him! Our deschooling is still a work-in-progress and I am sure this will be an interesting journey! ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: DESCHOOLING....What a great topic! I encourage all of the new hsers to read these posts! AUTHOR: Kathy Hayes DATE: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 7:15 a.m. Response To: Re: DESCHOOLING....What a great topic! I encourage all of the new hsers to read these posts! Author: Jole Date: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 6:42 a.m. We pulled our oldest son out of public school after 2nd grade in 1989. It was difficult for me at first but we felt we had no choice, he was attending an elementary shcool that went up to the 4th grade and he was coming home with words and attitudes that I didn't confront until I was in High > > This is our second go 'round hsing. The first attempt > was horrible for all of us. We had textbooks and workbooks, > a scheduled start time, etc. Toward the end of that year > it all fell apart and I felt like a complete failure. My > children thought their mother was a complete lunatic and > asked to return to ps. I let them. I had never heard of > the concept of deschooling eventhough I did belong to a > support group at the time. > Well, last year my oldest ds asked to hs again. I was > thrilled but knew I had to find a different support group > and a way to make this work. I did and the individuals in > this group introduced me to the idea of deschooling and > child-led learning. I must admit, I was very sceptical for > many, many months. I remember one support group meeting > where I sobbed, because I didn't thing my children would > ever love learning again! Like Giovanna, I have had to deschool > myself. This is no small task either, because I teach post-secondary > education. > Over the summer I began to see proof that it works. > My younger ds has a great love of science and has began > reading for pleasure. My older ds still needs some more > time, but he told his grandmother he learns more at home > than he ever did at school! This is from a child with whom > I have been VERY hands-off! He has told me he wants to learn > Japanese this year so he will be able to communicate with > our exchange student next year. He would never have wanted > to do this if I had tried to force him! Our deschooling > is still a work-in-progress and I am sure this will be an > interesting journey! > ======================================== MESSAGE: Homeschooling is about way more that just academics and yes, DESCHOOLING does start with *MOM*! AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 7:56 a.m. Response To: Re: DESCHOOLING....What a great topic! I encourage all of the new hsers to read these posts! Author: Jole Date: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 6:42 a.m. > > This is our second go 'round hsing. The first attempt > was horrible for all of us. We had textbooks and workbooks, > a scheduled start time, etc. Toward the end of that year > it all fell apart and I felt like a complete failure. My > children thought their mother was a complete lunatic and > asked to return to ps. I let them. I had never heard of > the concept of deschooling eventhough I did belong to a > support group at the time. Public school doesn't work at home mainly because it puts mom in a different role than what she was called to be. Now all the sudden, mom is not the nurturing MOM but a TEACHER complete with lesson plans, and a timer. This change in roles blows kids away. They have a hard time accepting it and this is why moms see their kids becoming intolerable. Moms becoming "public school teachers" in the home is totally ARTIFICIAL and UNNATURAL. Eventually this conflict of roles comes to a CRASH and this is why so many moms despair and yes, eventually put their children back in school. Like I said before in my first post, our first year was very unsatisfying to me and for my son. I had to take time off to re-educate myself and to find the ingredient that was missing. One of the main lessons I learned was that homeschooling was about WAY MORE than just academics. It had to do with RELATIONSHIP and our family's lifestyle. It had to do with ME passing down MYSELF to my children and this is how these roles of "teacher" and "mom" become reconciled. This, however, is an impossible task for a workbook. I understood that before I could discipline, before I could "teach" anything, I had to work on my relationship with my child. How did I work on the relationship? Well, being at home all day with my children I immediately saw MY OWN character flaws. I had many of them (still do but God is merciful and He is helping deal with them). I had to work on those. Two of the books that really helped me were "How to Really Love Your Child" and "Shepherding a Child's Heart." >From there I had to start looking at our lifestyle. I saw that our home was not conducive to learning and that "learning" and "life" were really two separate things. "Learning" only happened during those dreaded school hours. No wonder my son was bored and unsatisfied. I was presenting an erroneous picture of how true, natural learning is supposed to be. I think we all agree that DESCHOOLING needs to start with MOM. I would love to hear what you did after you DESCHOOLED yourself. What things did you do to pass that DESCHOOLING down to your children? I think the first step to DESCHOOLING a child (especially those coming right out of an extended period of public school) is to work on the relatioship. I do not know if people realize how much authority is taken away from you, as a parent, when you send your child off to school. The thing is that you cannot reclaim authority WITHOUT the relationship. So you must work on the relatioship first, in my opinion. The state of the relationship will be the determining factor of just how much you and how far you can direct and lead someone. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: DESCHOOLING.... AUTHOR: Patti DATE: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 9:00 a.m. Response To: DESCHOOLING....please post your experiences...how did it go when you took your child out of public school? Author: Giovanna Date: Wednesday, 26 August 1998, at 8:00 p.m. We started when our kids were finishing up their last months of school (their choice to finish the year, we were ready to take them out earlier). First we totally gave them 100% control over their assignments- what they did was up to them, and we totally had to back off and to TUNE OUT any criticisms from the teacher ( we are talking about kids that had 8 hr school days plus hours of homework daily). After a few weeks their grades went right back up, but we couldn't care less as we felt that 75% of their p.s. was a ridiculous waste of time at this point. We left it up to them to get whatever they wanted out of it. When school ended , we put severe restrictions on the t.v. but not much else. I am pretty hyper and usually have them on a very busy schedule of activities in the summer when we aren't snowed in...but I backed WAY off, way way off. I cut out just about all my little educational field trips, everything. Needless to say, we have had one of our best summers ever. The first month they complained about the t.v., now they don't seem to even watch their alotted time. We live way out in the country so they have kept themselves busy and also done a lot of time in the hammocks looking at books, or clouds , or whatever. It has been a joy to experience. They are relaxed, curious and doing all sorts of cool stuff and begging to start their homeschool . We picked out a really nifty curriculum together and they have already spent more time with their books before we start than I ever saw with their p.s. materials. We started getting ourselves going last week...then the weather got fabulous and we took the rest of the week off to climb in the Alps. Our fixed date to begin (set by them) has always been the 31st so we'll really jump in on Monday. But I am limiting them to half days , hopefully 3 hours a day. I am trying to follow Cafi's advice " Start slow, then ease up." So we are deschooling...a work in progress. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Homeschooling is about way more that just academics and yes, DESCHOOLING does start with *MOM*! AUTHOR: Tam DATE: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 9:02 a.m. Response To: Homeschooling is about way more that just academics and yes, DESCHOOLING does start with *MOM*! Author: Giovanna Date: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 7:56 a.m. Thaanks for such helpful insight Giovanna! i'll try to remember it on stressful days. > > Public school doesn't work at home mainly because it > puts mom in a different role than what she was called to > be. Now all the sudden, mom is not the nurturing MOM but > a TEACHER complete with lesson plans, and a timer. This > change in roles blows kids away. They have a hard time accepting > it and this is why moms see their kids becoming intolerable. > > Moms becoming "public school teachers" in > the home is totally ARTIFICIAL and UNNATURAL. Eventually > this conflict of roles comes to a CRASH and this is why > so many moms despair and yes, eventually put their children > back in school. > Like I said before in my first post, our first year > was very unsatisfying to me and for my son. I had to take > time off to re-educate myself and to find the ingredient > that was missing. One of the main lessons I learned was > that homeschooling was about WAY MORE than just academics. > It had to do with RELATIONSHIP and our family's lifestyle. > It had to do with ME passing down MYSELF to my children > and this is how these roles of "teacher" and "mom" > become reconciled. This, however, is an impossible task > for a workbook. I understood that before I could discipline, > before I could "teach" anything, I had to work > on my relationship with my child. > How did I work on the relationship? > Well, being at home all day with my children I immediately > saw MY OWN character flaws. I had many of them (still do > but God is merciful and He is helping deal with them). I > had to work on those. Two of the books that really helped > me were "How to Really Love Your Child" and "Shepherding > a Child's Heart." > From there I had to start looking at our lifestyle. > I saw that our home was not conducive to learning and that > "learning" and "life" were really two > separate things. "Learning" only happened during > those dreaded school hours. No wonder my son was bored and > unsatisfied. I was presenting an erroneous picture of how > true, natural learning is supposed to be. > I think we all agree that DESCHOOLING needs to start > with MOM. I would love to hear what you did after you DESCHOOLED > yourself. What things did you do to pass that DESCHOOLING > down to your children? > I think the first step to DESCHOOLING a child (especially > those coming right out of an extended period of public school) > is to work on the relatioship. I do not know if people realize > how much authority is taken away from you, as a parent, > when you send your child off to school. The thing is that > you cannot reclaim authority WITHOUT the relationship. So > you must work on the relatioship first, in my opinion. The > state of the relationship will be the determining factor > of just how much you and how far you can direct and lead > someone. > Giovanna > ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: DESCHOOLING....please post your experiences...how did it go when you took your child out of public school? AUTHOR: Melissa DATE: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 9:38 a.m. Response To: DESCHOOLING....please post your experiences...how did it go when you took your child out of public school? Author: Giovanna Date: Wednesday, 26 August 1998, at 8:00 p.m. Hi Giovanna, I felt a little like sharing my story because it is a kinda unique and different from everyone elses. But this is what makes homeschooling wonderful, choices. I have one son, so far. He is 19 months old. I decided that I wanted to homeschool about a year ago. My deschooling process, and it certainly was mine, involved looking at what I disliked as a 'student' in the public school system. For me textbooks were never an option, too boring. When I found out about Charlotte Mason her method was very moderate and made sense to me. So for me I have searched for curricula which would make learning exciting but still give me the sense that we were getting things accomplished. Not from a scope and sequence but from a natural progression stand point. So I would describe myself as an ecclectic homeschooler. Although my ideas differ from others, so does my life. So I have found something which makes me comfortable and excited. I am not worried about gaps but I am excited for my children. At the very least, God willing, they will have more out of their 'education' then I did. So this is my little story. Really, a story more about choices which is the first thing one realizes in their 'deschooling' process, that there is not only one way to do things. Melissa, who is different but content *smile*. > Let me share my experience. > First of all, my children have never gone to a preschool > or day care of any sort (Well, I take that back. Andrew > did go to a sitter for the first 8 months of his life but > that was it) and they've never attended public school. I > did not go through the "deschooling process" with > them. > But guess who needed to be deschooled? > ME! > I began homeschooling with tremendous plans. I had > a schedule, curriculum, set times for everything. My son > was four!!! I laugh about it now but I was rather serious > back then. I remember purchasing Ann Ward's "Learning > At Home" because of recommendations by Mary Pride. > Back then I just did not know any better and thought this > was the best "start" for my child. > What happened? > We lasted 4 weeks! > :-) > I can't say that we were burned out. I wasn't doing > heavy duty stuff with my child at all. It just seemed that > "school" was so contrived, so unnatural. I remember > clearly one afternoon reading aloud to my son about DEER > because the program said we should check out this one specific > book. We had to learn about mammals and this book would > be good. My son was soooo bored. I realized this was not > what I wanted. I was sad. Was homeschooling going to work? > My son was not enthusiastic at all and I knew the approach > I was using was totally wrong but I didn't know of any other > way. I really didn't. > I knew something had to change. I decided to take a > break from this and to spend some time educating myself. > I knew something was wrong but didn't know what the answer > was. I remember reading Diana Waring's "Beyond Survival" > and thinking how neat this mom was. What wisdom! How could > I duplicate that? I remember praying a lot. > My deschooling happened slowly. It took about a year. > I hear that children that are pulled out of public school > need about a year to deprogram themselves and to start looking > at education from a different point of view. Ironically, > me (the mom and the so-called "teacher") would > also need about a year to look at education outside of the > "box". That year was wonderful and I learned so > much. Besides, "Beyond Survival" I came across > a book that totally changed my life. This book was written > by Marilyn Howshall and it's called "Wisdom's Way of > Learning." The book has a strong Christian bent so > it's possible that non-Christians may be uncomfortable with > it. The truth in this book and in Marilyn Howshall's message > though pierced my heart. After reading it, I knew exactly > how I wanted our homeschool to be. I wanted it to be a lifestyle > of learning and not just some thing we did for several hours > out of the day. > I'm sure there some wonderful stories out there about > deschooling. Tell us what happened in your home. What things > did you do? What things did you NOT do? How long did it > take? How are things different now? > Looking forward to everyone's comments! > Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: DESCHOOLING....please post your experiences...how did it go when you took your child out of public school? AUTHOR: Laura DATE: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 9:51 a.m. Response To: DESCHOOLING....please post your experiences...how did it go when you took your child out of public school? Author: Giovanna Date: Wednesday, 26 August 1998, at 8:00 p.m. My experiences are very similar to Giovanna's. My daughter has never been in any formal school environment except Sunday School. However, my daughter is quite happy to sit at the table on work on workbooks for an hour or more. I had to actually 'see' for myself that this wasn't the type of education I wanted for her. I had always determined to read aloud a lot, having read Trelease's Read Aloud Handbook when I was pregnant and I did so and noticed how this seemed to be one of the best parts of our day. I began to see what a poor educational experience many of the things that I had to do in school, and that I was having Allison do, were. They required very little real thinking on her part, and absolutely no creative thought was necessary - just follow the pattern, copy the example type of stuff. I began to branch out with more 'experimental' type activities. The two most helpful books to me so far have been the abovementioned Read Aloud Handbook and The Charlotte Mason Home Companion. I have started using her ideas, especially as related to choice of books, narration, and nature studies. My daughter was an early reader, and has a great memory; but she sometimes had trouble narrating the story back to me, not because she didn't catch the story while she was reading, but because her vocabulary was inadequate to what she wanted to say. Since we have begun narrating, her vocabulary and speaking ability have increased so much I can hardly believe it. She now frequently uses words and sentence constructions that are in the books I read to her or that she reads herself. Just this morning on our morning walk, we spied a raccoon, and she begged me to follow its tracks in the mud so we could find its lair. "Lair?" I said. "You know, Mommy, its hiding place, where it lives." she whispered with a hint of impatience in her voice at having to explain something so elementary to me. Also, as I posted a little while ago, she has finally taken off into an area of learning that she has chosen herself - South America - and I know that the great enthusiasm she approaches this would not be there if I had woken up one morning and said, "Today we are going to start studying South America." I am still deschooling, but as a person committed to lifelong learning myself, I am enjoying the process to no end. Laura ======================================== MESSAGE: So true! Relationship comes FIRST... AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 10:03 a.m. Response To: Homeschooling is about way more that just academics and yes, DESCHOOLING does start with *MOM*! Author: Giovanna Date: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 7:56 a.m. ...and the longer the child has been in school, the more strain there probably is in the relationships at home. You have to take time to get to know each other again. After you know each other, you can start to trust each other, and trust is essential. You're so right, Giovanna, about the way the school system usurps a parent's authority. If the math teacher does a problem one way, and Mama (or Papa) does it another way, what usually happens? The kid freaks! "No!" they yell. "That's not the way Ms. Sharpnose taught us! You're doing it all WRONG!" They've been so SCHOOLED to believe there's just ONE right answer and ONE right way to arrive at that answer...and only Ms. Sharpnose knows the way. So you have to let the kids find out you're a pretty sharp person, yourself. Let them see there's "more than one way to skin a cat," as we say down here. Learning is discovery, and Job One is to re-discover your own intelligence and theirs! I will never, ever forget the day I realized (I mean REALLY realized, all the way down to my toes) that every single curriculum in the world is drawn up by a human being just like me! There ARE no meta-people out there with a special genius for deciding what everyone should know (not even E.D. Hirsch, however much his opinion may differ). I live on the Earth just like those curriculum planners do, and I'm every bit as smart as they are! Now THAT'S empowerment. Cerelle Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Children in public school AUTHOR: Kristen AKA Curlywhirly DATE: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 10:14 a.m. Response To: Children in public school Author: Giovanna Date: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 5:20 a.m. > Hmmmmmm...... this is such a good question! I am trying to deschool myselfand my 2 boys even as I type.=) We did hs for the first couple of years, then private school for 1 and 1/2 yrs, and then we went back to hs last yr. Add to the mix my very "teaching establishment" background and the fact that we hs through a public school ISP ( to avoid problems with the boys biological father) that requires certain subjects, hours, records etc and I can tell ya I get confused at times, and torn about how to proceed. I have seen, just recently, a spark in my older son, as he is calming down and begining to see himself as a capable learner. He begins to be excited about learning. He had been so down on his abilities and thought himself "stupid" after just one year! It makes me want to cry! My younger, although very adept at workbook pages and test taking, is still not sparking off the joy of learning. He just wants to do workbook pages and go play nintendo. sigh~ I may be unplugging THAT for a while! LOL My game plan? Presenting a variety of interesting materiel, but not requiring specific books, methods, etc.of the child. Variety, variety, variety. NOT getting worried about it when they do not pick up what I want them to right away; if they see me interested, sooner or later they will pick up what they need. Field trips inorder to apply what we are learning about. Making the education as much a part of "real life" as possible. Charlotte Mason's Narration. More stuff too, but that is all I can think of right now. How am I going to fit this in to the ISP's requirements? I have no clue! I start writing lesson plans on friday though, so I guess I will find out soon huh? I have a much clearer idea of what I am heading for now than I ever have before though. My deschooling has gone in fits and starts. And none of us is there yet. We are however moving in the right direction! Thank God! I look forward to reading all of the responses! Kristen ======================================== MESSAGE: Taking the complaining out of the heart AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 10:58 a.m. Response To: Children in public school Author: Giovanna Date: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 5:20 a.m. Giovanna, this is lovely! Did you make that up??? > Effective DESCHOOLING is taking the complaining OUT > OF THE HEART (not just out of the lips) and bringing the > child to a point where they see learning as an adventure--not > a horrible chore. > But how is that done? What steps should be taken (or > not taken)? Well, what you said about "the longer they're in school, the longer it takes to deschool" is true...and we've been in school longer than the kids! Part of the problem is all the "hidden lessons" we learn in school. Sure, we learn math and geography and all that, but most of all we learn that the teacher is smarter than we are, and there are people telling the teacher what to teach, and THEY'RE even smarter than the teacher! So even if we're the "smartest kid in the class," we're still dumb as dirt next to the teachers and the textbook writers, etc. The longer we stay in school, the more we learn that lesson. So college graduates believe in their own stupidity, even more than high school dropouts! To UNTEACH that lesson, we have to give the kids a chance to prove (to themselves) how smart they are. It happened here in our house by letting Ariel read as much as she wanted (which happened to be a lot!) about the things she was interested in, by encouraging her to write stories (even if they were dictated), by publishing her poems in little "books" we made ourselves and gave as gifts, and by treating her intellect with respect. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Taking the complaining out of the heart AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 11:24 a.m. Response To: Taking the complaining out of the heart Author: Cerelle Date: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 10:58 a.m. > Giovanna, this is lovely! Did you make that up??? ROTFL! Yes. While I was talking to my friend it just became a revelation. Her kids may not have been complaining out loud at school but inside their heart? They were probably complaining. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: I like Charlotte Mason AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 11:38 a.m. Response To: Re: DESCHOOLING....please post your experiences...how did it go when you took your child out of public school? Author: Melissa Date: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 9:38 a.m. > When > I found out about Charlotte Mason her method was very moderate > and made sense to me. Her idea of narration is great and I love her emphasis on nature studies. We do that at home. I'm sort of eclectic too. I don't even know what to call what I do! It's a mix of unschooling, a little of Charlotte Mason, a little of Principle Approach--whatever will work for the specific situation. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: You guys sound like such a neat family! (NT) AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 7:50 p.m. Response To: Re: DESCHOOLING.... Author: Patti Date: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 9:00 a.m. > > We started when our kids were finishing up their last > months of school (their choice to finish the year, we were > ready to take them out earlier). First we totally gave them > 100% control over their assignments- what they did was up > to them, and we totally had to back off and to TUNE OUT > any criticisms from the teacher ( we are talking about kids > that had 8 hr school days plus hours of homework daily). > After a few weeks their grades went right back up, but we > couldn't care less as we felt that 75% of their p.s. was > a ridiculous waste of time at this point. We left it up > to them to get whatever they wanted out of it. When school > ended , we put severe restrictions on the t.v. but not much > else. I am pretty hyper and usually have them on a very > busy schedule of activities in the summer when we aren't > snowed in...but I backed WAY off, way way off. I cut out > just about all my little educational field trips, everything. > Needless to say, we have had one of our best summers ever. > The first month they complained about the t.v., now they > don't seem to even watch their alotted time. We live way > out in the country so they have kept themselves busy and > also done a lot of time in the hammocks looking at books, > or clouds , or whatever. It has been a joy to experience. > They are relaxed, curious and doing all sorts of cool stuff > and begging to start their homeschool . We picked out a > really nifty curriculum together and they have already spent > more time with their books before we start than I ever saw > with their p.s. materials. We started getting ourselves > going last week...then the weather got fabulous and we took > the rest of the week off to climb in the Alps. Our fixed > date to begin (set by them) has always been the 31st so > we'll really jump in on Monday. But I am limiting them to > half days , hopefully 3 hours a day. I am trying to follow > Cafi's advice " Start slow, then ease up." So > we are deschooling...a work in progress. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: DESCHOOLING....please post your experiences...how did it go when you took your child out of public school? AUTHOR: Tina DATE: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 8:06 p.m. Response To: DESCHOOLING....please post your experiences...how did it go when you took your child out of public school? Author: Giovanna Date: Wednesday, 26 August 1998, at 8:00 p.m. Well, we are new to HSing...just finished our first month. My 11 yo son attended a PS from k-4. He is ADHD, which brings about all sorts of awful things in PS. We did not opt for a private school...that is no solution for a hyperactive child (same problems as PS, just paying thousands of $$). Anyway, won't bore you with our PS horror stories... It is ME who will have to de-school. I had planned to just do "school" here at home. It is working pretty well for the most part, but big changes are in the works! I wrote this Board earlier, concerned about meeting our states "daily requirments'. I got such great advice, but in a nutshell, it was... RELAX! Since then, we have continued our workbooks, etc., but added in some other good stuff. Today was such a day. We are fortunate to be near our river and canal system, which is very historic and a beautiful place. We went early today to try to beat the GA heat. We walked, talked about how the rushing water comes through, all that stuff. Did not get that much into the history even...just enjoyed it for awhile. We later found some shade and shared a couple of cokes. He asked could he take his shoes off. Sure. He then waded a little, picked up shells, sticks, rock, commented how the bottom was squishy, and asked to splash his face to cool off. As I watched this, it just came to me...what a great time for us BOTH! He totally enjoyed this and learned something for sure! We also went antiquing last week. He'd never been but I took him to some shops downtown. He was spellbound! He of course has to touch everything! This drives me nuts, but I have discovered that is how he LEARNS best. He learned more history in those few hours! He was absolutely full of questions! He can't wait to go back. I was so afraid he would miss his PS friends, but he still plays with them after school lets out. I still work part of the day, so he goes to the office with me for 1/2 hour until dad comes and picks him up. So he now boots up my computer, helps get the mail, can work a fax and copier, but more importantly is getting to see how a place of business works! More education! He even made the comment this morning about what we were going to do NEXT year for 6th grade when we HS! So he is loving not having the constant pressure of PS. It will take us a while to work out a system, but we are not sorry for our decision to HS. Our whole family is happier. I appreciate the support and info on this Board so much! Off the subject, but I was just wondering why they require us HSers to do 180 days per year, yet the PSers can miss 20 days (sick) of their 180 and still pass! Gotta go, sorry so long.... ---Tina ======================================== MESSAGE: New De-schooling thread question- How do I prepare myself?? AUTHOR: Ann Z.S. DATE: Saturday, 29 August 1998, at 1:29 p.m. I am soon beginning my 3rd year of homeschooling. I've had various age combinations each year - and with various previous school background - private, public, parochial... The first year I adopted the texts they had been using in the private school . The 2nd year I loosened up a bit, but still feel like I failed my son who was intensly interested in flight and I had promised him a unit both years and never got to it; this year I feel like I want to unschool - and so I might. But til I start the school year, without its structure and worksheets and schedule - HOW DO I PREPARE MYSELF?? Should I just be reading like crazy - or just following my own interests? Should I just be reading this bulleting board constantly and finding new resources on the Internet? Am I asking an impossible questions? I think I feel inadequate in knowledge, both about unhomeschooling and general knowledge; I know it will be tough for me to go hands-off, I'm kind of into controlling things....Help! ;-) (I think there's hope) Ann ======================================== MESSAGE: Oooh! Flight! FASCINATING STUFF! AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Saturday, 29 August 1998, at 2:50 p.m. Response To: New De-schooling thread question- How do I prepare myself?? Author: Ann Z.S. Date: Saturday, 29 August 1998, at 1:29 p.m. Oh gosh, Ann -- if your son's still interested in flight, there's SO MUCH you can do (and could be doing NOW) to foster this interest. The mind boggles! Get thee to the library, quick! Read up on the history of flight. You'll find SOMETHING in there that really gets your juices flowing, believe me. Consider the possibilities... How do birds fly? How do bats fly? The myth of Daedalus and Icarus Leonardo da Vinci's experiments with flight The Bernoulli effect, and air pressure in general The Wright bros. Patterns for paper airplanes (there are books of these) Helicopter technology Jet engines Model airplanes Blimps Hot air balloons Rocketry "Flying" seeds Flying squirrels I could go on and on. You've got history, science, literature, art, and math -- all in one neat package. Once you get excited, you won't be able to STOP! A unit on flight could take you through December. And yes -- YOU'LL be learning, too! Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: be his guide. you don't have to know much. AUTHOR: Strongwom DATE: Saturday, 29 August 1998, at 4:55 p.m. Response To: Oooh! Flight! FASCINATING STUFF! Author: Cerelle Date: Saturday, 29 August 1998, at 2:50 p.m. I am EXTREMELY inadequate in general knowledge. I try to be my son's guide. When he's interested in something, I try to find resources for him -- books, articles, websites, etc. In the meantime, I frenetically bookmark sites and buy books that I suspect he may someday be interested in. Hope this helps. > Oh gosh, Ann -- if your son's still interested in flight, > there's SO MUCH you can do (and could be doing NOW) to foster > this interest. The mind boggles! > Get thee to the library, quick! Read up on the history > of flight. You'll find SOMETHING in there that really gets > your juices flowing, believe me. Consider the possibilities... > > How do birds fly? How do bats fly? The myth of Daedalus > and Icarus Leonardo da Vinci's experiments with flight The > Bernoulli effect, and air pressure in general The Wright > bros. Patterns for paper airplanes (there are books of these) > Helicopter technology Jet engines Model airplanes Blimps > Hot air balloons Rocketry "Flying" seeds Flying > squirrels > I could go on and on. You've got history, science, > literature, art, and math -- all in one neat package. Once > you get excited, you won't be able to STOP! A unit on flight > could take you through December. > And yes -- YOU'LL be learning, too! > Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Sorry, Ann (reading your question more closely this time!) AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Saturday, 29 August 1998, at 5:39 p.m. Response To: New De-schooling thread question- How do I prepare myself?? Author: Ann Z.S. Date: Saturday, 29 August 1998, at 1:29 p.m. Well, I guess I got so carried away about "flight," I ignored the real content of your post. (One of my worst flaws -- overenthusiasm! *grin*) > (snip)...this year I feel like I want to unschool - and > so I might. But til I start the school year, without its > structure and worksheets and schedule - HOW DO I PREPARE > MYSELF?? Hmmmm. You mean, prepare yourself to unschool? Cafi's suggestions (below, on the "getting over the fear" thread) are pure gold. Start analyzing just about everything you and the kids do for its educational content, and write it down. No, I put the cart before the horse -- write it down first; THEN analyze. I know this is going to sound anti-unschooling, but try taking a look at some of the stuff that's been written about educating highly gifted kids. What you'll find is that much of it reads like an unschooler's handbook! Why is that? Well, educators are much more willing to trust gifted children to explore the world on their own! I think this is terribly unfair, because, in my opinion, ALL children (whether or not they've been anointed "gifted" by some silly test) can be trusted to have pretty good instincts. > Should I just be reading like crazy - or just following > my own interests? Should I just be reading this bulleting > board constantly and finding new resources on the Internet? > Am I asking an impossible questions? I like the idea of following your own interests, because (1) you'll be setting a GREAT example, (2) your enthusiasm will, to a large degree, be contagious, and (3) you'll quickly see how one interest often fans out to include many "subject areas." > I think I feel inadequate in knowledge, both about > unhomeschooling and general knowledge; I know it will be > tough for me to go hands-off, I'm kind of into controlling > things....Help! ;-) (I think there's hope) Ann Ha! Yeah, I'd say there's plenty of hope!!! One thing I've loved about homeschooling is the excuse it has given me to keep exploring. I'm a fool with a magnifying glass in my hand! Everything is so INTERESTING! I'm not sure I would have felt this way if I hadn't been learning with the kids all these years. These days, I ask as many questions as a 4-year-old! (I think the curator at the science museum is sick of me...) Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: I thought this might be a nice addition to the deschooling discussion..... AUTHOR: Melissa DATE: Wednesday, 2 September 1998, at 6:50 p.m. Foreword to Deschooling Our Lives By Ivan Illich with Aaron Falbel "If there were one thing I could wish for the readers (and some of the writers) of Deschooling Our Lives, it would be this: If people are seriously to think about deschooling their lives, and not just escape from the corrosive effects of compulsory schooling, they could do no better than to develop the habit of setting a mental quesiton mark beside all discourse on young people's "educational needs" or "learning needs," or about their need for a "preparation for life." I would like them to reflect on the historicity of these very ideas. Such reflection would take the new crop of deschoolers a step further from where the younger and sopmewhat naive Ivan was situated, back when talk of "deschooling" was born." This is the final paragraph of the introduction to the above book. Melissa ======================================== MESSAGE: The habit of questioning assumptions AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Thursday, 3 September 1998, at 6:13 a.m. Response To: I thought this might be a nice addition to the deschooling discussion..... Author: Melissa Date: Wednesday, 2 September 1998, at 6:50 p.m. Good quote, Melissa! As I grow ever farther away from school (and nearly all that it represents), I find that I take fewer and fewer things for granted. I no longer believe things automatically, just because I've been hearing them all my life. One by-product of homeschooling (for me, at least) has been a greater capacity for self-reliance. Emerson's famous essay has more meaning for me now than it ever did when I was young. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Deschooling Society AUTHOR: VickiC DATE: Thursday, 3 September 1998, at 9:16 a.m. Response To: I thought this might be a nice addition to the deschooling discussion..... Author: Melissa Date: Wednesday, 2 September 1998, at 6:50 p.m. A digitized vesion of Deschooling Society by Ivan Illich can be found at the link below. Well, was going to comment but my grandson has other plans for me at the moment. ======================================== MESSAGE: WOW! Thanks! (nt) AUTHOR: KathyN DATE: Thursday, 3 September 1998, at 12:53 p.m. Response To: Deschooling Society Author: VickiC Date: Thursday, 3 September 1998, at 9:16 a.m. > A digitized vesion of Deschooling Society by Ivan Illich > can be found at the link below. > Well, was going to comment but my grandson has other > plans for me at the moment. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: I thought this might be a nice addition to the deschooling discussion..... AUTHOR: VickiC DATE: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 9:10 a.m. Response To: I thought this might be a nice addition to the deschooling discussion..... Author: Melissa Date: Wednesday, 2 September 1998, at 6:50 p.m. Well, I fully expect to get hit up side of the head with a copy of Deschooling Our Lives, but I'll express my thoughts anyway. Spent some time reading several chapters of Illich's Deschooling Society and I have to admit I have difficulty with his "intellectual" viewpoint. I think it is important to weigh things as they should be (ideally) against practicality. Holt, for example, can do that as he has had experience with real learners. Illich doesn't have that experience (from what I've read so far--my evaluation may not be completely fair) and I really had difficulty with some of his ideas--especially those that pertain to the education (de-education?)of children in developing countries. I admire his vision of self-education--a "learning web" of learner-selected tools and facilitators (see below), but I still feel there is a terrific need for parents or other mentors to provide guidance and motivation. Self-direction, learning for the sheer joy of learning something that is meaningful to you should always be a goal--not as an offshoot of an education but as a way of life. But as a parent I also have to address certain issues. (Perhaps Illich can afford NOT to address these issues because he is not a parent.) Does my child have the necessary backgrond skills to allow him to qualify for college (if that's his goal)? Will my child be able to support himself as adult? Will he have the skills necessary to carry out his job? Those questions may not have the same exalted ring to them, but parents are irresponsible if they don't ask them occasionally. Illich:Learning Webs 1. Reference Services to Educational Objects-which facilitate access to things or processes used for formal learning. Some of these things can be reserved for this purpose, stored in libraries, rental agencies, laboratories, and showrooms like museums and theaters; others can be in daily use in factories, airports, or on farms, but made available to students as apprentices or on off hours 2. Skill Exchanges--which permit persons to list their skills, the conditions under which they are willing to serve as models for others who want to learn these skills, and the addresses at which they can be reached. 3. Peer-Matching--a communications network which permits persons to describe the learning activity in which they wish to engage, in the hope of finding a partner for the inquiry. 4. Reference Services to Educators-at-Large--who can be listed in a directory giving the addresses and self-descriptions of professionals, paraprofessionals, and free-lancers, along with conditions of access to their services. Such educators, as we will see, could be chosen by polling or consulting their former clients. ======================================== MESSAGE: Quick note... AUTHOR: Melissa DATE: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 9:45 a.m. Response To: Re: I thought this might be a nice addition to the deschooling discussion..... Author: VickiC Date: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 9:10 a.m. Hi Vicki, Just to make things clear the forward I quoted was from Illich but the book is by Mark Hern (I believe). That's all. Melissa > Well, I fully expect to get hit up side of the head > with a copy of Deschooling Our Lives, but I'll express my > thoughts anyway. Spent some time reading several chapters > of Illich's Deschooling Society and I have to admit I have > difficulty with his "intellectual" viewpoint. > I think it is important to weigh things as they should be > (ideally) against practicality. Holt, for example, can do > that as he has had experience with real learners. Illich > doesn't have that experience (from what I've read so far--my > evaluation may not be completely fair) and I really had > difficulty with some of his ideas--especially those that > pertain to the education (de-education?)of children in developing > countries. > I admire his vision of self-education--a "learning > web" of learner-selected tools and facilitators (see > below), but I still feel there is a terrific need for parents > or other mentors to provide guidance and motivation. > Self-direction, learning for the sheer joy of learning > something that is meaningful to you should always be a goal--not > as an offshoot of an education but as a way of life. But > as a parent I also have to address certain issues. (Perhaps > Illich can afford NOT to address these issues because he > is not a parent.) Does my child have the necessary backgrond > skills to allow him to qualify for college (if that's his > goal)? Will my child be able to support himself as adult? > Will he have the skills necessary to carry out his job? > > Those questions may not have the same exalted ring > to them, but parents are irresponsible if they don't ask > them occasionally. > Illich:Learning Webs 1. Reference Services to Educational > Objects-which facilitate access to things or processes used > for formal learning. Some of these things can be reserved > for this purpose, stored in libraries, rental agencies, > laboratories, and showrooms like museums and theaters; others > can be in daily use in factories, airports, or on farms, > but made available to students as apprentices or on off > hours > 2. Skill Exchanges--which permit persons to list their > skills, the conditions under which they are willing to serve > as models for others who want to learn these skills, and > the addresses at which they can be reached. > 3. Peer-Matching--a communications network which permits > persons to describe the learning activity in which they > wish to engage, in the hope of finding a partner for the > inquiry. > 4. Reference Services to Educators-at-Large--who can > be listed in a directory giving the addresses and self-descriptions > of professionals, paraprofessionals, and free-lancers, along > with conditions of access to their services. Such educators, > as we will see, could be chosen by polling or consulting > their former clients. > ======================================== MESSAGE: Deschooling: I need help during the process AUTHOR: Valerie DATE: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 3:58 p.m. Does anyone have any good tips for coping while dad and kids deschool? I've been gathering info for almost a year now and have a pretty good 'feel' for what I want for my kids, but it's hard to quantify it in terms that dh can grasp. We've sort of started schooling, but it's not typical workbooks, lists, etc. It's more like an extension of summer break. He wants to see weekly goals & measurements set and other "classroom stuff". I am trying to avoid as much of that as possible. Our kids would be 5th, 2nd, and extended day K. He's not too concerned about what the 4yo will be doing. Help and TIA for any words of wisdom Valerie ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Deschooling: I need help during the process AUTHOR: Shari DATE: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 4:28 p.m. Response To: Deschooling: I need help during the process Author: Valerie Date: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 3:58 p.m. Valerie Hi! This is my first year of hsing my two children (12yob and 11yog). I am purposely letting the first few weeks be very laid back (like an extended summer vacation) with a few new house rules (no T.V. or Nintendo). Each day I have written down things, books, crafts, discussions, good behavior, independent ideas, positive attitudes, play time, sports, computer and any and all activities that the children work on during the day. I then code it as to whether it covered math, science (lots of it so naturally!), P.E., writing, art, well you get the idea. In short, I have been blown away at all my children cover during the day!!! At this rate, I am going to stay laid back!! This has helped our entire family (kids included) to understand how much we are all always learning. > Does anyone have any good tips for coping while dad > and kids deschool? I've been gathering info for almost a > year now and have a pretty good 'feel' for what I want for > my kids, but it's hard to quantify it in terms that dh can > grasp. We've sort of started schooling, but it's not typical > workbooks, lists, etc. It's more like an extension of summer > break. He wants to see weekly goals & measurements set > and other "classroom stuff". I am trying to avoid > as much of that as possible. > Our kids would be 5th, 2nd, and extended day K. He's > not too concerned about what the 4yo will be doing. > Help and TIA for any words of wisdom > Valerie ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Quick note... AUTHOR: VickiC DATE: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 4:47 p.m. Response To: Quick note... Author: Melissa Date: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 9:45 a.m. > Hi Vicki, > Just to make things clear the forward I quoted was > from Illich but the book is by Mark Hern (I believe). > That's all. > Melissa I did get that, Melissa. The exerpt was so interesting, however, that it did make me quite curious about this Illich guy and so I followed through on that (finding about him, that is). I also checked out Barnes and Noble to see if there was a review or synopsis of the book. There was. It sparked enough interest that I'm eager to see if I can get ahold of a copy the next time I'm at the library. Thanks for mentioning Deschooling Our Lives. V.C. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Deschooling: I need help during the process AUTHOR: Valerie DATE: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 4:58 p.m. Response To: Re: Deschooling: I need help during the process Author: Shari Date: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 4:28 p.m. Thanks I have been tracking stuff, too. The friction point is that my info is after the fact; dh (retired military) wants to see an 'operations plan' ahead of time. Right now he's not comfortable with an 'after-the-fact' one. How do I come up with material to quiet his fears and concerns without getting so stressed out about meeting arbitrary standards that the whole process grinds to a halt? ======================================== MESSAGE: This is also what I have heard.... AUTHOR: Melissa DATE: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 5:02 p.m. Response To: Re: Deschooling: I need help during the process Author: Shari Date: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 4:28 p.m. Valerie, Shari has a good idea here. By keeping a daily log you can see what your children are doing and how much they are accomplishing. To make the transition smoother, you might want to try broad goals and note how they are attaining them. This would give your dh a sense of stability while he slowly comes around to accepting a more relaxed learning style. Keep us posted. Melissa > Valerie Hi! This is my first year of hsing my two children > (12yob and 11yog). I am purposely letting the first few > weeks be very laid back (like an extended summer vacation) > with a few new house rules (no T.V. or Nintendo). Each day > I have written down things, books, crafts, discussions, > good behavior, independent ideas, positive attitudes, play > time, sports, computer and any and all activities that the > children work on during the day. I then code it as to whether > it covered math, science (lots of it so naturally!), P.E., > writing, art, well you get the idea. In short, I have been > blown away at all my children cover during the day!!! At > this rate, I am going to stay laid back!! This has helped > our entire family (kids included) to understand how much > we are all always learning. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Quick note... AUTHOR: Melissa DATE: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 5:08 p.m. Response To: Re: Quick note... Author: VickiC Date: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 4:47 p.m. Hi Vicki, Please forgive me for stating the obvious. Do let me know what you think of the book after you've read it. I'm contemplating purchasing it, but my book list is really long as it is. I would appreciate any feed back. Melissa > > I did get that, Melissa. The exerpt was so interesting, > however, that it did make me quite curious about this Illich > guy and so I followed through on that (finding about him, > that is). > I also checked out Barnes and Noble to see if there > was a review or synopsis of the book. There was. It sparked > enough interest that I'm eager to see if I can get ahold > of a copy the next time I'm at the library. Thanks for mentioning > Deschooling Our Lives. V.C. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Deschooling: I need help during the process AUTHOR: Janine DATE: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 6:47 p.m. Response To: Re: Deschooling: I need help during the process Author: Valerie Date: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 4:58 p.m. > Thanks > I have been tracking stuff, too. The friction point > is that my info is after the fact; dh (retired military) > wants to see an 'operations plan' ahead of time. Right now > he's not comfortable with an 'after-the-fact' one. > How do I come up with material to quiet his fears and > concerns without getting so stressed out about meeting arbitrary > standards that the whole process grinds to a halt? I've always found it helpful to show him a book. THe book that made you decide that this style of schooling was right for your family. If he reads the book, he'll see that this isn't something you dreamed up on your own, but now you have a "team" behind you - the author and the families he uses as case studies. I hope this works. Janine ======================================== MESSAGE: Hubby needs to be deschooled! AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 8:07 p.m. Response To: Deschooling: I need help during the process Author: Valerie Date: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 3:58 p.m. Have you read a book about homeschooling that has impacted you? Would hubby be willing to read it? I bet he would enjoy the Colfaxes book. I bet it'd be right up his alley. Imagine homeschooling your children all the way to Harvard? And this family did what I consider to be a lot of UNschooling to boot! Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: In my husband's words... AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Saturday, 5 September 1998, at 9:55 a.m. Response To: Deschooling: I need help during the process Author: Valerie Date: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 3:58 p.m. Several years ago, my husband wrote the following short article for a homeschooling newsletter we were publishing at the time. I think it addresses this question pretty well... "In the day-to-day world of the male workplace, small goals and big deadlines are the expected norm, and are often necessary because money is to be made or lost. It is natural for fathers to transfer this attitude to their home lives, their spouses and children. There's a common tendency to expect wives and children to achieve the same number or parity of daily goals, to believe there should always be a forward motion, a constant improvement over previous levels of performance. But unlike a business, there is no balance sheet in the home to show profit or loss, rising or falling trends in productivity. "The basis for homeschooling is to allow the involved individuals to explore the continent of knowledge just as Lewis and Clark mapped the New West. Since they didn't know where they were going, each day was an adventure of discovery that couldn't be planned according to a flow chart or any other artificial measuring device. "My advice to parent/teachers is to assume the role of an explorer rafting down the river of self-education. Along some sections the scenery will fly past too quickly to be more than a fleeting impression. Other stretches will be slow and almost stagnant, or slow and too beautiful to be completely understood. Access to the river requires the greatest effort. The current will carry you along on a delightful lifetime journey. The only goal is to experience." Tomas Simmons, 1989 I think it's still as true in our house today as it was when he wrote this, 9 years ago! --Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Once again, brilliant Cerelle!!¨What a neat guy you married! AUTHOR: Patti DATE: Saturday, 5 September 1998, at 10:10 a.m. Response To: In my husband's words... Author: Cerelle Date: Saturday, 5 September 1998, at 9:55 a.m. > Several years ago, my husband wrote the following short > article for a homeschooling newsletter we were publishing > at the time. I think it addresses this question pretty well... > > "In the day-to-day world of the male workplace, > small goals and big deadlines are the expected norm, and > are often necessary because money is to be made or lost. > It is natural for fathers to transfer this attitude to their > home lives, their spouses and children. There's a common > tendency to expect wives and children to achieve the same > number or parity of daily goals, to believe there should > always be a forward motion, a constant improvement over > previous levels of performance. But unlike a business, there > is no balance sheet in the home to show profit or loss, > rising or falling trends in productivity. > "The basis for homeschooling is to allow the involved > individuals to explore the continent of knowledge just as > Lewis and Clark mapped the New West. Since they didn't know > where they were going, each day was an adventure of discovery > that couldn't be planned according to a flow chart or any > other artificial measuring device. > "My advice to parent/teachers is to assume the > role of an explorer rafting down the river of self-education. > Along some sections the scenery will fly past too quickly > to be more than a fleeting impression. Other stretches will > be slow and almost stagnant, or slow and too beautiful to > be completely understood. Access to the river requires the > greatest effort. The current will carry you along on a delightful > lifetime journey. The only goal is to experience." > > Tomas Simmons, 1989 > I think it's still as true in our house today as it > was when he wrote this, 9 years ago! --Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Deschooling: I need help during the process AUTHOR: Shawna DATE: Saturday, 5 September 1998, at 10:27 a.m. Response To: Deschooling: I need help during the process Author: Valerie Date: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 3:58 p.m. Did you notice Cerelle's husband used a word picture. Men understand things much better when word pictures are used. Maybe you can come up with one that would fit your family situation and would help him understand how strongly you feel about this. I'm sure this alone will not be soley convincing but will be an aid in the prosses. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Deschooling: I need help during the process AUTHOR: Vanessa DATE: Saturday, 5 September 1998, at 10:33 a.m. Response To: Deschooling: I need help during the process Author: Valerie Date: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 3:58 p.m. After reading the wonderful posts so far and hearing your dh's concerns, this idea struck me. I don't know if it will help. If he's a goal setting type of man, perhaps you could write down what learning/progress you hope your children will obtain this "school" year :o) (we consider ourselves year-round schoolers, because for us hs has been a change in our lifestyle or how we look at things, and we never quit learning). Keep the after-the-fact record and go over it, say every 3 months, to show how the kids are meeting these goals, or just sit down and evaluate your progress then with or without the record. If you have a goal that is not being met, slide in a little guidance, a few projects, etc. to help meet that goal, ie. if your goal for one of your children is to be able to improve reading skills to a certain level, then your guidance could be encouraging that child to read whatever he is interested in - magazines, comics, etc., and you could scatter books around your house that you think he might really like. I have a son who, for awhile, felt he had exhausted the library (imagine!), so I started investigating for books I thought he might like. I found if I brought them home, he would pick them up and read them. Now he is back to looking on his own. In setting your goals, examine what it is you hope to accomplish with each of your children from your deschooling method and simply write it down on paper. :O) Maybe your goals are more character related than academic related this year, then write those down. Whatever tools you choose to use is up to you. I believe textbooks are used in ps to help teachers try to ensure and gauge progress in the group setting. I too sometimes use textbooks or written programs, but they are my tools, not my mainstay. We go as fast or as slow as we choose. The important thing for me is that I see real learning taking place without unhealthy stress, no matter how we obtain it. It's sometimes hard to see progress on a day-to-day basis, but after a few months have passed and I look at where my children are now, compared to then, I know I love our home schooling lifestyle! What's more is that my kids do too. Good-luck! Vanessa > Does anyone have any good tips for coping while dad > and kids deschool? I've been gathering info for almost a > year now and have a pretty good 'feel' for what I want for > my kids, but it's hard to quantify it in terms that dh can > grasp. We've sort of started schooling, but it's not typical > workbooks, lists, etc. It's more like an extension of summer > break. He wants to see weekly goals & measurements set > and other "classroom stuff". I am trying to avoid > as much of that as possible. > Our kids would be 5th, 2nd, and extended day K. He's > not too concerned about what the 4yo will be doing. > Help and TIA for any words of wisdom > Valerie ======================================== MESSAGE: You're right, Vicki AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Sunday, 6 September 1998, at 6:41 a.m. Response To: Re: I thought this might be a nice addition to the deschooling discussion..... Author: VickiC Date: Friday, 4 September 1998, at 9:10 a.m. I won't be the one to hit you up side the head -- I agree that it's much easier to make sweeping comments about educating children when you're not a parent! For me, that has always been a point of concern with Holt's writings, too (love him as I do). It's a case of caveat emptor, don't you think? What I like about Illich is his vision of strengthening the other institutions of education (libraries, museums, etc.) and empowering citizens, so that schools aren't seen as having an iron-clad monopoly (mixed metaphor?) on education. I think we're seeing that happen, more and more, and it's one of the ideas my oldest is committed to right now, in her current studies in alternative education. A sticking point, for me, is when independent avenues of learning are extolled for adults but NOT extended to the younger members of our society. A lot of lifelong-learning advocates seem to think we're talking about two different kinds of people -- children and adults -- which leads to a weird blindspot (in my opinion) in much of the literature. Sure, there ARE differences between kids and grown-ups, but learning works pretty much the same way for both. Illich and Holt, bless them, are more willing than most to allow children into their grand scheme. Cerelle > Well, I fully expect to get hit up side of the head > with a copy of Deschooling Our Lives, but I'll express my > thoughts anyway. Spent some time reading several chapters > of Illich's Deschooling Society and I have to admit I have > difficulty with his "intellectual" viewpoint. > I think it is important to weigh things as they should be > (ideally) against practicality. Holt, for example, can do > that as he has had experience with real learners. Illich > doesn't have that experience (from what I've read so far--my > evaluation may not be completely fair) and I really had > difficulty with some of his ideas--especially those that > pertain to the education (de-education?)of children in developing > countries. > I admire his vision of self-education--a "learning > web" of learner-selected tools and facilitators (see > below), but I still feel there is a terrific need for parents > or other mentors to provide guidance and motivation. > Self-direction, learning for the sheer joy of learning > something that is meaningful to you should always be a goal--not > as an offshoot of an education but as a way of life. But > as a parent I also have to address certain issues. (Perhaps > Illich can afford NOT to address these issues because he > is not a parent.) Does my child have the necessary backgrond > skills to allow him to qualify for college (if that's his > goal)? Will my child be able to support himself as adult? > Will he have the skills necessary to carry out his job? > > Those questions may not have the same exalted ring > to them, but parents are irresponsible if they don't ask > them occasionally. > Illich:Learning Webs 1. Reference Services to Educational > Objects-which facilitate access to things or processes used > for formal learning. Some of these things can be reserved > for this purpose, stored in libraries, rental agencies, > laboratories, and showrooms like museums and theaters; others > can be in daily use in factories, airports, or on farms, > but made available to students as apprentices or on off > hours > 2. Skill Exchanges--which permit persons to list their > skills, the conditions under which they are willing to serve > as models for others who want to learn these skills, and > the addresses at which they can be reached. > 3. Peer-Matching--a communications network which permits > persons to describe the learning activity in which they > wish to engage, in the hope of finding a partner for the > inquiry. > 4. Reference Services to Educators-at-Large--who can > be listed in a directory giving the addresses and self-descriptions > of professionals, paraprofessionals, and free-lancers, along > with conditions of access to their services. Such educators, > as we will see, could be chosen by polling or consulting > their former clients. > ======================================== MESSAGE: motivation AUTHOR: ann DATE: Sunday, 6 September 1998, at 7:00 p.m. This article is indirectly related to deschooling and I thought some of you might be interested in it. It deals with why children in the classroom aren't motivated and what can be done about it. It is part of an online book that has many good ideas that relate to deschooling. ======================================== MESSAGE: Okay, Giovanna, here I am..... AUTHOR: Lee DATE: Monday, 7 September 1998, at 5:36 a.m. How long do I wait for him to start searching out information for himself? I do plan to do math with him. We will officially start "school" tomorrow with math only. I want to let him learn whatever else he wants on his own. Are you saying I should not help him in any way at all? From other posts that I've read, I had the impression that when they show an interest in something, you should direct them to places to find info on that subject. Is that the wrong thing to do? ======================================== MESSAGE: Holy moly! Neat site, Ann! AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Monday, 7 September 1998, at 12:29 p.m. Response To: motivation Author: ann Date: Sunday, 6 September 1998, at 7:00 p.m. Engines for Education (EfE) is an amazing little project! I went to the site you linked to your post...and just kept reading. Interesting stuff, there. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: There is a fine line AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Monday, 7 September 1998, at 9:36 p.m. Response To: Okay, Giovanna, here I am..... Author: Lee Date: Monday, 7 September 1998, at 5:36 a.m. > Are > you saying I should not help him in any way at all? From > other posts that I've read, I had the impression that when > they show an interest in something, you should direct them > to places to find info on that subject. Is that the wrong > thing to do? Ok. There is a fine line here. I'm REALLY hoping someone else steps in with some wonderful wisdom and advice. {grin} I would love to hear from someone who is going thru this process now or who has already done it. Here is my advice... If your child is interested in a particular subject I think you should ENCOURAGE him but not necessarily DO IT for him. Do you see the fine line here? Your son is old enough now where he doesn't need you like, for example, my six year old needs me. My son needs me to read things to him, to teach him how to find things in the library and to teach him how to go thru the "research" process. Once he has learned this though he should be a lot more independent but necessarily a lone ranger. I want to learn WITH him and if you learn WITH your child as well then all of the sudden you aren't a "teacher". Do you see what I mean? However, I'm not sure where your son is at. Is he at a point where he seeks knowledge on his own? Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: ooops! AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Monday, 7 September 1998, at 9:51 p.m. Response To: There is a fine line Author: Giovanna Date: Monday, 7 September 1998, at 9:36 p.m. > Once he has learned this though he should be a > lot more independent but necessarily a lone ranger. This should say..... NOT necessarily a lone ranger. You probably knew that but just in case! :-) Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Lee, I thought about this some more... AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 5:10 a.m. Response To: Okay, Giovanna, here I am..... Author: Lee Date: Monday, 7 September 1998, at 5:36 a.m. The main goal of education should be for a child to learn HOW to learn and for a child to become an independent learner and a lover of learning, right??? If a child is depending on mom to prepare his "lessons" even into the teenage years then that goal in my opinion has not been met. This is not to say that mom is never involved in the learning process. Mom is involved but her role changes as the years go by. There is a big difference between a child saying "Mom, I'm looking for some sites on WWII and I can't find XX thing...can you help?" and mom looking for those sites without the child being interested in seeing them (even if he IS interested in WWII). Do you see what I'm trying to explain? :-) Mom is the encourager and the guide and she is supposed to be involved. But if mom is constantly finding the resources in order to get the child to learn then I would take steps to change that. The goal of becoming an independent learner has not been reached yet. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Okay.. AUTHOR: Lee DATE: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 5:36 a.m. Response To: Lee, I thought about this some more... Author: Giovanna Date: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 5:10 a.m. then, do I just mind my own business and let him do whatever he wants,which so far is watching tv, chatting on the internet,eating and sleeeping? Well, now that today we will start math, I am going to try to eliminate tv-watching and limit chatting. This will be difficult, however, because we are not at home. Things never seem to work out the same when we are here at Grandma's. > The main goal of education should be for a child to > learn HOW to learn and for a child to become an independent > learner and a lover of learning, right??? > If a child is depending on mom to prepare his "lessons" > even into the teenage years then that goal in my opinion > has not been met. We are just starting the independent learning thing. I have always had lesson plans prepared for him. > > > Do you see what I'm trying to explain? :-) Yes, and it is hard for me as I have always "needed" to be in control. I am TRYING to change!! > Mom is the encourager and the guide and she is supposed > to be involved. But if mom is constantly finding the resources > in order to get the child to learn then I would take steps > to change that. The goal of becoming an independent learner > has not been reached yet. Thank you for your advice. :.) Lee ======================================== MESSAGE: Well........ AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 5:42 a.m. Response To: Okay.. Author: Lee Date: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 5:36 a.m. > then, do I just mind my own business and let him do > whatever he wants,which so far is watching tv, chatting > on the internet,eating and sleeeping? Well, now that today > we will start math, I am going to try to eliminate tv-watching > and limit chatting. This will be difficult, however, because > we are not at home. Things never seem to work out the same > when we are here at Grandma's. > Thank you for your advice. :.) Lee Some people do exactly this. Stay out and let the child bore himself into oblivion. The philosophy behind it is that once the child is bored enough he will eventually get interested in pursuing something. MY PERSONAL OPINION??? I think it's hard for a child to get bored "enough" with the TV on all day. TV is a major distraction. But that is only MY personal opinion. Remember, this process is not written in stone anywhere. I would love to hear Cafi's opinion on this. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Sharing, fostering, getting involved and standing back AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 6:43 a.m. Response To: Okay, Giovanna, here I am..... Author: Lee Date: Monday, 7 September 1998, at 5:36 a.m. Lee-- I think sometimes that by talking about this, we make it seem harder -- or at least more complicated and confusing -- than it really is. Plus, there are so many variables involved. We who are into deschooling, unschooling, interest-led ed, etc., etc., can all too easily make it sound as if we're always passive observers...leading others to believe that we're not active participants in the process. Well, sometimes we're NOT active participants, but more often, we're in constant interaction with our kids, talking about things, suggesting things, sharing what we know and think, and being a BIG part of their lives. A big part of their educational lives, too! But it's sometimes very subtle, because we're not delivering a program. "Here, Johnny, today you'll be doing numbers 1 through 20 on page 37." It's not like that. But it IS like, "Oh, Johnny, you remember asking me about prime numbers the other day? Well, I ran across this thing about writing a computer program in BASIC that tests numbers to see if they're prime. Do you want to give that a try?" I think of it as "fostering," most of the time. It's also REAL trial-and-error. You'll suggest something, and the kid will say, "No way! That's not anything I want to do right now." And you'll scratch your head and go back to the drawing board. This is NORMAL. But helping is fine. Helping means you're interested and involved and willing to take part. Nothing wrong with that! Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Deschooling Mom AUTHOR: Debra DATE: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 7:12 a.m. Wow this board is already jumping! My twins are only 5 (well they will be next week!) and they have no need for "deschooling" since they never went to school. *I* on the other hand have been going through a deschooling process myself. I no longer have the idea of setting up a formal classroom with desks and a blackboard . I'm afraid I will never be totally relaxed in my approach, but I do like the more flexible approach to homeschooling. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: That is the type of thinking that just may save public schools! AUTHOR: annie DATE: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 7:16 a.m. Response To: motivation Author: ann Date: Sunday, 6 September 1998, at 7:00 p.m. The very things talked about there are the reasons many of us homeschool. If the teachers and the higherarchy in my area were thinking along those lines, I would not be as adamantly against sending my children for academic reasons, (though there are other reasons that still make homeschool the choice in my family, both for the adults and the children)...I am so glad to see this book on line. I hope many, many teachers, and especially those who govern the system - principals, administrators, board members, etc., will read this book and change the way in which they look at education for the children. I think the public schools would be so much better if they did. After all, homeschooling is not for everybody, but I would like to see that type of education available to all. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Well........ AUTHOR: Sharon DATE: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 8:05 a.m. Response To: Well........ Author: Giovanna Date: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 5:42 a.m. > I think it's hard for a child to get bored "enough" > with the TV on all day. TV is a major distraction. It may be difficult, but not impossible. My kids whittled down their own TV viewing because TV became so boring. They now have very specific things they watch. These are mostly educational shows with a few cartoons. For quite some time I thought the only way the TV would ever be off at my house would be because I would have thrown it out, but now I have regular TV quiet times at my house even when I'm not around. ======================================== MESSAGE: So far, so good.. AUTHOR: Lee DATE: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 9:05 a.m. Response To: Well........ Author: Giovanna Date: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 5:42 a.m. I told him this morning that the tv will be off until 4pm. So far, it is still off. He did his math and went outside to tinker with a lawn mower or something. :.) > > Some people do exactly this. Stay out and let the child > bore himself into oblivion. The philosophy behind it is > that once the child is bored enough he will eventually get > interested in pursuing something. > MY PERSONAL OPINION??? > I think it's hard for a child to get bored "enough" > with the TV on all day. TV is a major distraction. > But that is only MY personal opinion. Remember, this > process is not written in stone anywhere. I would love to > hear Cafi's opinion on this. > Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Me too, if I can continue to get the hang of it. nt AUTHOR: Lee DATE: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 9:11 a.m. Response To: Deschooling Mom Author: Debra Date: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 7:12 a.m. > Wow this board is already jumping! My twins are only > 5 (well they will be next week!) and they have no need for > "deschooling" since they never went to school. > *I* on the other hand have been going through a deschooling > process myself. I no longer have the idea of setting up > a formal classroom with desks and a blackboard . I'm afraid > I will never be totally relaxed in my approach, but I do > like the more flexible approach to homeschooling. ======================================== MESSAGE: De-Schooling; we need help! 8-) AUTHOR: Lynette DATE: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 10:18 a.m. Hi everyone, I'd like to say first that I've really enjoyed reading through all of these messages, and they've been informative, to say the least. This is our first year of home schooling our 1st grader and our 2nd grader. We've been at it for three weeks, and so far so good. However, reading these postings has stimulated my thinking about our kids' attitudes towards schooling and learning. One of my concerns for my son (2nd grade) is that he doesn't seem motivated to do very much. He loves reading (one night I caught him in the bathroom reading when he was supposed to be asleep, LOL) and I'm glad, but he still has trouble with at least attempting to read unfamiliar words. He is one of those kids who'd rather stay in his underwear and play Legos or video games or watch TV all day, if given a choice. He dislikes math very much. We are trying Miquon with him, hopefully loosely paced enough so he fills in the holes from PS. He is, however, fascinated with the Titanic and the Egyptian pyramids and dinosaurs and will occasionally say, "Mom, I'm going to build something, okay? Can I use that old box...?" (Maybe he'll be an architect 8-) ) Unfortunately for him, architects need math skills and measuring skills. Any ideas?? He's not much of a self starter. Our first grade daughter, on the other hand, is very motivated so she's really gotten into school this year. Thanks in advance, and I'll keeping reading these posts! -- (Thanks Giovanna, I followed your link from Vegsource! 8-) ) Lynette ======================================== MESSAGE: Unschooling processes AUTHOR: Elisabeth DATE: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 10:48 a.m. I have found that this process can not be rushed and is encouraged when one realizes that one of the most detremental focuses is ADULT PEER PRESSURE. This can be as bad as negative peer pressure for children. I ahve learned the hard way that a regimented curriculumn is not for our family. I am starting to feel much better about myself as a parent and our children's natural God-given curiosities and talents. I am becoming comfortable in my role as a parent and facilitator for our children. ======================================== MESSAGE: See what I mean, Lee??? The process is not "written in stone". It's unique with each family. Sharon has a different story with the TV. (NT) AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 11:20 a.m. Response To: Re: Well........ Author: Sharon Date: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 8:05 a.m. > > It may be difficult, but not impossible. My kids whittled > down their own TV viewing because TV became so boring. They > now have very specific things they watch. These are mostly > educational shows with a few cartoons. For quite some time > I thought the only way the TV would ever be off at my house > would be because I would have thrown it out, but now I have > regular TV quiet times at my house even when I'm not around. > ======================================== MESSAGE: deschooling--help! AUTHOR: Susan DATE: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 11:48 a.m. Hello-- I'm so glad to have found this board and this particular discussion! I have a 6yo and 9yo boy, both "gifted" though I wish there were a better term. We are homeschooling for the first time this year; have also moved to a new house. The younger son, having missed a lot of ps kindergarten, is having no trouble with the transition to deschooling/unschooling. The older one, having been to ps 4 years, and being more kinesthetic anyway, is having a horrid time of it and so am I! I want them to find their own fun or their own boredom, their own clouds to watch, whatever--and all he wants to do is attention-getting stuff (some sweet, some obnoxious, no malice -- just crazymaking stuff that is making it hard for me to get anything done). He has a room full of fabulous open-ended toys and games, plenty of books, a dog and a cat, an incredibly idyllic neighborhood and plenty of woods to explore all around(you get it--plenty to do/play with) yet he wants me to entertain him one way or another 24 hours a day. (He does fine if I am entertaining him and giving attention, but the minute I try to have some privacy or do some alone/adult tasks, he is all over me like a cheap suit.) I think he is too accustomed to having someone else program every minute for him, even if it was boring stuff, and he is resisting finding his own agenda. How can I help him make the transition? I don't want to do lesson plans and schedules and structure! I hate that scene! (Can you tell I'm strung out about this?) TIA for advice, help, even a hearty chuckle-- Susan ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: De-Schooling; we need help! 8-) AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 3:14 p.m. Response To: De-Schooling; we need help! 8-) Author: Lynette Date: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 10:18 a.m. Hi, Lynette! Since this is your first year of homeschooling, it's probably safe to say that your 2nd-grade son associates math with drills and timed tests and endless workbook pages. No wonder he hates it! But you mentioned he's fascinated by dinosaurs. Do you have a LONG tape measure in the house? He might enjoy going out in the backyard and marking off the length of an ultrasaurus. That's math, but he probably won't recognize it as such. He loves Egypt, you say? The ancient Egyptians marked the boundaries of fields, houses, temples, etc., using a rope trick that gave them a right triangle every time. There's another great backyard activity, and the Pythagorean theorem is lurking right behind it. He likes the Titanic? Learning iceberg facts could lead right into fractions, displacement, buoyancy...all sorts of neat math/science stuff. One of the first "Eureka" moments I had during my own deschooling came when I realized that the divisions between traditional school subjects are misleading and totally arbitrary! Everything is connected; anything can link to something else; the big wide world of knowledge is more like a fluid lake than a cross-fenced field. It all flows together! There's no reason to hate math when it comes embedded in the very things you already find fascinating. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: When they cling... AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 4:33 p.m. Response To: deschooling--help! Author: Susan Date: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 11:48 a.m. Hi, Susan-- I smiled and smiled as I read your post. I've got an attention-hog, too, although mine's older now and is getting more independent by the day. I'm wondering if your son's clingy-ness is something that just started, or has he always been this way? In other words, did he follow you around all summer long, or has it just been since you started your official homeschooling year? You might try approaching this the way you would a clingy toddler. Give him your undivided attention for an hour or so (playing games together, reading aloud, whatever), and then announce that the next 30 minutes is YOURS to spend -- alone and uninterrupted. In other words, wean gradually! I had to do this with mine so I could get some writing time to myself during the day. Meanwhile, let me recommend a mail-list called TAGMAX. If you don't already know about it, it's for parents homeschooling gifted kids. (I hate that label, too, but there's good stuff on the list, and you might enjoy sharing stories.) I'll put the URL below. Cerelle > Hello-- > I'm so glad to have found this board and this particular > discussion! I have a 6yo and 9yo boy, both "gifted" > though I wish there were a better term. We are homeschooling > for the first time this year; have also moved to a new house. > The younger son, having missed a lot of ps kindergarten, > is having no trouble with the transition to deschooling/unschooling. > The older one, having been to ps 4 years, and being more > kinesthetic anyway, is having a horrid time of it and so > am I! > I want them to find their own fun or their own boredom, > their own clouds to watch, whatever--and all he wants to > do is attention-getting stuff (some sweet, some obnoxious, > no malice -- just crazymaking stuff that is making it hard > for me to get anything done). He has a room full of fabulous > open-ended toys and games, plenty of books, a dog and a > cat, an incredibly idyllic neighborhood and plenty of woods > to explore all around(you get it--plenty to do/play with) > yet he wants me to entertain him one way or another 24 hours > a day. (He does fine if I am entertaining him and giving > attention, but the minute I try to have some privacy or > do some alone/adult tasks, he is all over me like a cheap > suit.) > I think he is too accustomed to having someone else > program every minute for him, even if it was boring stuff, > and he is resisting finding his own agenda. How can I help > him make the transition? I don't want to do lesson plans > and schedules and structure! I hate that scene! > (Can you tell I'm strung out about this?) TIA for advice, > help, even a hearty chuckle-- > Susan > ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: De-Schooling; we need help! 8-) AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 4:55 p.m. Response To: De-Schooling; we need help! 8-) Author: Lynette Date: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 10:18 a.m. HI LYNETTE! WOW! I think our sons were made with the same mold---right down to the underwear and Legos. :-) Your son IS motivated by a lot of things. Dinosaurs, Ancient Egypt, Legos, Titanic. Start with these interests. By the way, my son is really big into Ancient Egypt as well and he has his "ideas" in his little website. I'll post the URL below. If he loves reading you are blessed. His reading abilities will get better as he reads and matures. As far as Miquon.... Miquon Math lends itself well to children like yours because it is not a traditional math programs with pages upon pages of problems, rote memorization and all of that. Play with the rods and use them with games to learn math. He will enjoy that. Start with the things that he is interested in and dive in. Go to the library, find books and videos on Ancient Egypt (Reading Rainbow has a great episode featuring ALIKI'S "Mummies Made in Egypt"...your library may have the video of this episode and they will most likely have the book). Let him direct you as much as possible. It doesn't have to look like "school" for learning to take place. Actually in his case, the less it looks like "school" the better. :-) Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Rats! Wrong URL! AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 5:00 p.m. Response To: Re: De-Schooling; we need help! 8-) Author: Giovanna Date: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 4:55 p.m. I linked my daughter's webpage instead of my son's. Here it is again http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Tower/4636/index.htm ======================================== MESSAGE: Attn parents deschooling teens AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Wednesday, 9 September 1998, at 5:37 a.m. Have you been to Cafi Cohen's website? She has some articles there that might be of benefit to you. Go here: http://www.concentric.net/~Ctcohen/articles.htm ======================================== MESSAGE: deschooling AUTHOR: phyllis DATE: Wednesday, 9 September 1998, at 1:21 p.m. Last year our 13 & 15 yr olds spent the entire school year agreeing on something,,,,they wanted to go to a new school in our area. These were 2 very bright and athletic girls. Popular and strong willed. On the honor roll +. We were confused....nothing was broken ( from "our side" of school anyway) They went to the sudbury school in Illinois - Liberty Valley School. It was wonderful. Self-directed. (the kind of schooling has been around for 30+years) They have a web site. This year our 15 is still at Liberty and our 13 is being homeschooled. The change to homeschooling was not a negative toward Liberty. Deschooling children of this age takes longer and seems to creep out when least expected. Having been a public school volunteer for 14yrs. doing EVERYTHING possible for all age levels- I still find myself surprised at a few stories that filter out that I was not aware of, that happened during our childrens day at public school. To be a listener....to be flexible......to trust your child in all ways.....to truely want to be with her @5hrs of the day....to be the guiding force & the patient parent - deschooling evolves for the child and the adult. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: deschooling--help! AUTHOR: leslie DATE: Wednesday, 9 September 1998, at 2:54 p.m. Response To: deschooling--help! Author: Susan Date: Tuesday, 8 September 1998, at 11:48 a.m. Wow, sounds like the beginning of our year last year. My ds spent 3 years in ps before I began homeschooling. He definitely needed me to be available all the time at first, just to tell him what was next. Yes, he had a copy of the day's lessons right there with him, he just couldn't seem to do ANYTHING without me being right there. I guess it was because that was the way school had always been for him. When I needed that time totally alone and away from him, I would require he sit and read for 30 minutes. That was one thing he would do without me being right there, and it worked very well. In fact, some days he would end up spending the rest of the school day reading if it was a really good book. Very slowly he weaned himself from me, and by last spring I could actually do things around the house while he schooled. So far this year he has been even more independent, so maybe I'm on the right track. Now if I could just get him to be involved in choosing what to study, but that is another thing that he didn't have in ps, and so it hard for him to realize that he can have a say. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: deschooling AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Wednesday, 9 September 1998, at 3:01 p.m. Response To: deschooling Author: phyllis Date: Wednesday, 9 September 1998, at 1:21 p.m. Phyllis, I've heard good stuff about the Sudbury Valley schools. If I read your post right, your two daughters went from public school to the Sudbury school...and now you're homeschooling the younger one. Is that right? Would you say that the year at Liberty provided a good transition from public school to homeschool? I loved your last paragraph: > To be a listener....to be flexible......to trust your > child in all ways.....to truely want to be with her @5hrs > of the day....to be the guiding force & the patient > parent - deschooling evolves for the child and the adult. What a wonderful description! Do your daughters miss each other this year? It was a real wrench for my younger one when her older sister left for college last year (and now we're going through it this week all over again). At the same time, it's been nice to see our 16-yr-old step out from her sister's shadow! Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: deschooling--help! AUTHOR: Susan DATE: Wednesday, 9 September 1998, at 4:42 p.m. Response To: Re: deschooling--help! Author: leslie Date: Wednesday, 9 September 1998, at 2:54 p.m. Leslie, Cerelle, Thanks so much for your support and sharing! It makes me feel better to know there are other moms living with "attention hogs" and also other kids who have trouble weaning from ps and constant adult direction. I will try creating a list of things for him to do each day, or a list of choices, and start with shorter lengths of "adult time" than I had wanted to...for now. Once we start our computer curriculum, that should help also. This is a great board! I love the e-mail notification when responses come! I'll be back--thanks again ;-) Susan ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: motivation--good reading--and a good pep talk for those of us struggling with unschooling vs. sit down and fill in those work sheets. AUTHOR: Katherine M. DATE: Wednesday, 9 September 1998, at 6:00 p.m. Response To: motivation Author: ann Date: Sunday, 6 September 1998, at 7:00 p.m. So when will my children be motivated to *work* at home? ======================================== MESSAGE: When will they be motivated, you ask? AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Wednesday, 9 September 1998, at 7:58 p.m. Response To: Re: motivation--good reading--and a good pep talk for those of us struggling with unschooling vs. sit down and fill in those work sheets. Author: Katherine M. Date: Wednesday, 9 September 1998, at 6:00 p.m. Katherine wrote: > So when will my children be motivated to *work* at > home? Ha! Are you referring to "homework" (reading & writing) or "housework" (vacuuming the rug)? I'll tell you a little secret -- either way, you have convince them it isn't actually work. You probably weren't fishing for a serious answer, here, but this IS serious stuff -- work, for its own sake, is hardly ever appealing to a child. So there are a couple of ways to tackle it. You can de-emphasize the "work" aspects of anything, Mary Poppins style, by thinking up ways to make the job fun, whether it's memorizing multiplication facts or polishing the silver. I've been known to read to Hunter while he washed dishes. If it's a book he loves, he hardly notices he's having to do a chore. (And hey -- I'd rather read All Creatures Great and Small aloud ANY old day than wash dishes myself!) Or you can do the traditional thing: threaten, punish, and intimidate a kid until his motivation is FEAR. To which I say, "Yuck!" Not that I haven't stooped to that a time or two, over the years. But I'm not proud of it, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. When you think about it, we adults will always choose a task we enjoy or which has some intrinsic reward built into it, than a task we despise, unless we're afraid of what will happen to us if we leave that loathesome chore undone. (I'm thinking specifically of preparing tax returns -- if only the IRS could think of a way to make it fun!) My 16yo daughter LOVES her job at the coffee bar. She gets to cook (her favorite activity), she gets to be around people she enjoys, and she even gets PAID for it. She likes her job at the museum, too, but she keeps it more out of the fondness she has for the people there than because she actually enjoys the work she does there. Either way, she works cheerfully at each job because the motivation is built in. In contrast, I think back to my first job. I hated it. I worked only because my parents INSISTED that I get a job, and I had not a clue as to what kind of work I might enjoy. What an empty experience! Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: This is just beautiful :-) AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Wednesday, 9 September 1998, at 8:21 p.m. Response To: Re: DESCHOOLING....please post your experiences...how did it go when you took your child out of public school? Author: Laura Date: Thursday, 27 August 1998, at 9:51 a.m. Laura, I meant to respond to your post ages ago, but time slipped away. I love the way you think! With kids who read early and breeze through academic work, it's so easy to assume they're getting a great education...whether they're at home or at school. I think it's nothing less than inspiring that you want MORE for your daughter than neatly filled-in workbooks and the ability to score well on tests. What a lucky little girl you have on your hands! (I'm an admirer of Charlotte Mason, too, by the way.) Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: What motivates people? AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Wednesday, 9 September 1998, at 8:36 p.m. Response To: Re: motivation--good reading--and a good pep talk for those of us struggling with unschooling vs. sit down and fill in those work sheets. Author: Katherine M. Date: Wednesday, 9 September 1998, at 6:00 p.m. > So when will my children be motivated to *work* at > home? Motivated? I don't know. I'm not always motivated to do housework. In fact, I can think of 1000 other things I'd rather do. But I do housework because the pay off for me is worth the work. I hate clutter and I love a clean house. A clean house to me is like good, clean air. When the house is messy I feel suffocated. LOL! This summer I attended a homeschool seminar (our state's hs conference) held by Karey and Monte Swan. They said something I'll never forget. They said we cannot MAKE our children love to learn--we can't even MAKE them love God. But we can "woe" them into these things. They said that homeschooling's highest objective is about romancing the heart of our child. I totally agree! I think this sort of works with all things. Take my hubby for example. We met in 7th grade. It was love at first sight for him. Me? I didn't even notice him. Talk about romancing! He "romanced" me clear up till college and I never cared but one day I did!!! :-) He definitely did "woe" me!!! Motivation is such an interesting thing, isn't it? What motivates people? The pay off has to be worth it in order for someone to be motivated to do something. I'm not saying we have to "reward" our children for every little thing they do in order to keep them motivated. Actually I am one of the ones that disagrees with paying children to do chores. And as far as learning, I never have rewarded them for that. Learning is its own reward! What I am trying to say is that a child (or anyone) has to find a positive quality in the activity or else there will not be much motivation there. Now how does one go about making chores fun and appealing? I don't know! ROTFL! Unfortunately not everything in life is fun and appealing, is it? Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: deschooling - Cerelle AUTHOR: Phyllis DATE: Wednesday, 9 September 1998, at 8:48 p.m. Response To: Re: deschooling Author: Cerelle Date: Wednesday, 9 September 1998, at 3:01 p.m. Yes, our 2 daughters went to public schools then a sudbury school. A Sudbury school is a wonderful experience for any child to have their education filter through !! Liberty Valley School, Joliet, IL is our local sudbury. It has 4-18 yr olds and is a self directed school. They believe and practice the belief that, the inner drive of all children is a great and wonderful thing that should be respected. I truely believe that children at Liberty understand the importance of the school community and the world community. Everyday they practice the real world experiences of running their school. I could go on & on... Our two daughters do not get along. So their being in different school atmospheres is not a problem. (13/f is now homeschooled) I use to feel strange about their not getting along but for now ..that is how it is. As a first time homeschooler I can get nervous if I think about it to much ! She is self-directed in her studies. She has set up a schedule of times and subjects she wants to follow every day. Even tho our state(IL) is so flexible with homeschooling laws - she is handeling her education in this manner. I guess the deschooling of our children may have been different because we as their parents, were not the ones who initiated the change from a traditional style of learning - it was them.Back to the TopBack to the Digest Index