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Delight Directed Learning
Digest (part 2)
MESSAGE: Re: to Barbara AUTHOR: Barb DATE: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 1:59 p.m. Response To: to Barbara Author: Teresa Date: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 9:30 a.m. > Yes, I may have an edge when it > comes to curriculum ;but I'm beginnig > to understand that if my teacher head > gets in the way of my mother's heart, > I'm going to miss out on so much of > the beauty of homeschooling......Praying > that God(who called me and equipped > me as a teacher and mother) will help > me to find the right balance. > In Him, > Teresa Hi Teresa You're right, I agree. Before our family moved into the home schooling lifesyle, I had much to learn about the dooes and don'ts, ins and outs of the government regulations. This is now the end of our third year with all the kids at home, and I am more relaxed concerning government expections and objectives. Interest learning sure helps us around here. Never a dull moment. Today Kristie saw a snowy owl. Hummm, lets set our communication skills book asside, and check out snowy owls on the net. You will love the freedom to explore. Last year we had an injured owl, Jamie, our bird doctor brought it into the house, and it opened it's eyes. Whew, it made a great story. Everyday brings a new experience. We should have started home schooling when the boys were small. It's wonderful. High school is a bit dicy but we'll manage. ======================================== MESSAGE: Play . . . (too long!) AUTHOR: dmx DATE: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 6:19 p.m. Response To: You got me thinking...(LONG) Author: Tam W. Date: Monday, 12 April 1999, at 8:14 p.m. Picking up on what Cerelle said, I think 'play' is the most underated educational tool there is. I'll bet your girls have consuming play interests and I'll bet if you sit and listen and record what they're saying and doing while thinking 'education', you'll be knocked off your feet! Now, I'm the biggest worrier in the world! I spend oodles of time at it and I can argue most sides of an issue quite naturally! But, play has been the biggest inspiration to my now-13 yo's learning. Without it, we'd have had to buy a curriculum and hit the books. Using his 'play', we're able to keep formal learning to a minimum. The desire to read the Sunday comics, Calvin and Hobbes, and video game instruction booklets taught my son to read. He began to draw the characters in video games at a young age and then began to create scenes to go with them. He's now in his third 'cartooning' class at a Visual Arts Center. He hit on Godzilla several years ago. He has researched him like a scholar. He knows the movies, dates of release, major characters. He draws them; he writes stories (pages and pages); he writes book and movie reviews about them. He has recently declared that he has no choice but to learn Japanese because many of the books about Godzilla have not been translated. And he has actually begun. (Will it continue? I don't know - he sounds determined, but learning Japanese alone sounds VERY difficult, so . . .who knows). He's recently started saving dimes in order to visit Japan in 2004, when there's a big anniversary celebration scheduled. In my dark moments, I want to wipe Godzilla from his mind. I want him to be interested in astronomy, gardening, submarines, baseball, anything but Godzilla! I have had to restrain myself from screaming in agony so many times! (I HATE Godzilla. I have no understanding about how it can be interesting, much less consuming!) But, in my better moments, I remember that research, essay writing, drawing, and memorization of facts are all things that I would have to 'teach' if he weren't learning them on his own. I often feel the same way you do. It's only now that I can see the 'academic' results coming from his 'play' that I can appreciate how important play is to learning. For me, I see the benefits of 'delight-directed learning' little by little rather than on a particular day or week. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: SIM City is our core curriculum right now AUTHOR: dmx DATE: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 6:44 p.m. Response To: SIM City is our core curriculum right now Author: Pam J. Date: Monday, 12 April 1999, at 11:57 p.m. Don't be surprised if letting him follow his interests DOES indeed lead right into writing, drawing, science, etc! As I said below, my son's interest in Godzilla has led directly to all those things. He writes endlessly, fiction and non-fiction; draws; has started to learn Japanese (barely - who knows how far he'll get!). Our basic rule is that anything he will learn on his own is most important. We then fill in the cracks, which for us is most consistently math. I've never been brave enough to leave that to 'interest', though I often wish I would! Congratulations on a great week! The best thing about something like this is that it is so fun to watch! ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Has anyone seen the movie HARRIET THE SPY? AUTHOR: maicie DATE: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 7:44 p.m. Response To: Has anyone seen the movie HARRIET THE SPY? Author: Giovanna Date: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 7:52 a.m. One of our all time favorites. My son has a friend who is incredibly artistic and has been from a very early age. His parents,too, discouraged him from focusing too much on this talent that might not lead to a big money making career. The boy started getting into trouble before he was out of elementary school. He had a focus and a place to channel all that energy but when his parents tried to take that away, he found a new place to put that nrg...stealing, cutting class, etc. He is now in an alternative school (don't get me started) but at least his teacher is encouraging his talent once again. Didn't Harriet's real shenanigans start after her parents took away her notebook? PS: Doesn't that movie just make you want to grab a notebook and run outside? ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: SIM City is our core curriculum right now AUTHOR: maicie DATE: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 7:59 p.m. Response To: SIM City is our core curriculum right now Author: Pam J. Date: Monday, 12 April 1999, at 11:57 p.m. This is so great! But I have to disagree about the math part. I think managing Simm City's finances is harder than balancing a checkbook. It must be. All my Sim's moved out today and my city is gone:( We also use these types of games as part of government learning. ======================================== MESSAGE: Real passions AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 8:56 p.m. Response To: Has anyone seen the movie HARRIET THE SPY? Author: Giovanna Date: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 7:52 a.m. Giovanna, we LOVE this movie. Ariel must have read the book 10 times -- she was always the big writer/observer, and she identified heavily with Harriet. The first time I watched the movie, I cried until I thought I was going to throw up when they took away Harriet's notebook. I'm not sure why, but that scene REALLY got to me, and when the movie was over, I had to go to my room and cry some more! Kids can sure surprise us. Who could have predicted that one of my children would want to spend all her time in kitchens, cooking? And what if I hadn't been willing or able to recognize this as a valid and worthwhile passion? What if I had discounted her interest in nurture and nourishment because it wasn't sufficiently intellectual or academic? Indeed, there are individuals in our (extended) family right now who disapprove of Laurel's devotion to cooking. They feel it's not a very glamorous profession, that she may never make much money at it, and that it is hard, thankless work. I guess they want me to try to make her be someone she isn't -- but someone they WANT her to be. Why would I want to do that? Who will be living Laurel's life? Laurel, of course! So why should we mold HER LIFE to suit someone else's idea of satisfying life? That just seems crazy to me! Thanks for mentioning Harriet the Spy -- it's a wonderful book and a very moving movie. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Yes, yes, yes! AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 9:21 p.m. Response To: Play . . . (too long!) Author: dmx Date: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 6:19 p.m. Boy, I loved reading this! Calvin & Hobbes was how my son learned to read, too. I thought it was pretty weird, until I remembered that I cut my reading teeth on Pogo. LOL! One thing I've hated about Hunter's Star Wars obsession is his desire to collect action figures. I guess I hate it so much because I don't like merchandizing tactics, and I resent every penny that gets funneled to big commercial entities. But this week, things took a new turn around here. Hunter got interested in creating his own action figures. Several weeks ago, in the course of working on one of his own, original Star Wars stories, he came up with a new character, and he's given this character a whole history. Yesterday, I suggested (very mildly) that it might be fun to try to make an action figure for this new character out of clay. Somewhat to my surprise, Hunter loved this idea! He raced back to his room, ran back in with his box of clay, and about an hour later, he had a pretty cool-looking clay action figure. He wasn't satisfied with the medium, though, and later on last night, he dug out the bag of colored beeswax and made another one. This one was more successful. This morning, at the coffee house where we hang out on Tuesday mornings, we ran into a sculptor friend of ours. We asked him to go over the lost-wax method for us, and we explained that Hunter was interested in the process of making action figures. Well, he was a wealth of information! He drew us little pictures of how it works, showed us different ways of approaching the problem, and told Hunter where to go to get some basic supplies for trying it out on his own. The conversation was both serendipitous and fascinating, and the whole time I was thinking, "Cerelle, you fool, all this time you've been hating it that he spends his money on these action figures, but look where it's leading him!" You just never know...you can NEVER KNOW where something will lead. For years, I've been learning to have faith, but it seems I still haven't mastered the art. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: You're Right, Maicie! AUTHOR: Pam J. DATE: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 10:20 p.m. Response To: Re: SIM City is our core curriculum right now Author: maicie Date: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 7:59 p.m. > This is so great! But I have to > disagree about the math part. I think > managing Simm City's finances is harder > than balancing a checkbook. It must > be. All my Sim's moved out today and > my city is gone:( > We also use these types of games > as part of government learning. You're right, Maicie..balancing the SIM budget and staying out of debt is a major mathematical challenge in itself! There are also the many graphs and pie charts to preuse, which my son had to explain to ME! ROTFL! Pam ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Real passions AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 10:55 p.m. Response To: Real passions Author: Cerelle Date: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 8:56 p.m. > Giovanna, we LOVE this movie. Ariel > must have read the book 10 times -- > she was always the big writer/observer, > and she identified heavily with Harriet. > The first time I watched the movie, > I cried until I thought I was going > to throw up when they took away Harriet's > notebook. I'm not sure why, but that > scene REALLY got to me, and when the > movie was over, I had to go to my room > and cry some more! I know why. It made me cry too. It's sad that the parents knew absolutely NOTHING about their child. They didn't understand her and she had absolutely NO CONNECTION with them at all. They had no idea what she was going through and she couldn't even talk to them. It's just a movie right? WRONG. Lots of parents are like this. That's what is so horribly sad. They were not "for her." They just wanted the "problem" fixed. > What if I had discounted her > interest in nurture and nourishment > because it wasn't sufficiently intellectual > or academic? YEP! I don't ever want to look back with regret asking myself WHAT IF all the time. I don't want to worry so much. I just want to appreciate the uniqueness of my children. > Indeed, there are individuals > in our (extended) family right now who > disapprove of Laurel's devotion to cooking. Tell them to go fly a kite! :-) After seeing how Harriet's parents handled her problem I am more determined than ever to stand by my child. Ok. Ok. I'm so dramatic! How could a kid movie make me think about this type of stuff so much? I don't know. I guess I just realize how easy it could have been for me to get caught up in a major career, without time to even talk to my kids. I guess I see how easily it could have been for me to view my children as possessions the way our society seems to do instead seeing them as unique human beings. WHEW! Thank you God! Forgive me... I'll be over it by morning. :-) Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Speaking of "go fly a kite"... AUTHOR: "M. Bear" in Texas DATE: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 11:53 p.m. Response To: Re: Real passions Author: Giovanna Date: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 10:55 p.m. Has been awhile since we've seen Harriet (will have to go rent it now... *grin*), but another movie that this thread brings to mind is "Fly Away Home". A wonderful film, IMO, about both parent & child following their dreams - and learning an awful lot in the process! MB ======================================== MESSAGE: You know what this reminds me of.... AUTHOR: Grace DATE: Wednesday, 14 April 1999, at 4:28 a.m. Response To: Re: Real passions Author: Giovanna Date: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 10:55 p.m. > The life story of Beatrix Potter.....We just read this and studied her art. WOW..Talk about not knowing your child and seclusion..It is an amazing tale!! Yes , we really enjoyed the movie also...made me even more resolved that my children were going to be able to go with their interests.. Blessings, ahhh Great discussion last month..Great discussion this month...I am getting so filled to overflowing!! Thanks... > I know why. It made me cry too. > It's sad that the parents knew absolutely > NOTHING about their child. They didn't > understand her and she had absolutely > NO CONNECTION with them at all. They > had no idea what she was going through > and she couldn't even talk to them. > > It's just a movie right? WRONG. > Lots of parents are like this. That's > what is so horribly sad. They were not > "for her." They just wanted > the "problem" fixed. > YEP! I don't ever want to look > back with regret asking myself WHAT > IF all the time. I don't want to worry > so much. I just want to appreciate the > uniqueness of my children. > Tell them to go fly a kite! :-) > After seeing how Harriet's parents handled > her problem I am more determined than > ever to stand by my child. Ok. Ok. I'm > so dramatic! How could a kid movie make > me think about this type of stuff so > much? I don't know. I guess I just realize > how easy it could have been for me to > get caught up in a major career, without > time to even talk to my kids. I guess > I see how easily it could have been > for me to view my children as possessions > the way our society seems to do instead > seeing them as unique human beings. > WHEW! Thank you God! > Forgive me... I'll be over it by > morning. :-) > Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Chess vs yo-yo's AUTHOR: Ann in NC DATE: Wednesday, 14 April 1999, at 9:20 a.m. Response To: Yes, yes, yes! Author: Cerelle Date: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 9:21 p.m. This whole thread is facsinating. We all have our prejudices on what is 'worth doing'! I think that is the problem when I try to explain delight-directed learning to others -- especially those who still think you only learn when you read a textbook. I often received nods of approval when my 7 year old was highly involved in chess. Oh, yes, that was acceptable. That SOUNDED academic. Two years later, when he was 9 and had replaced the obsession with chess to an obsession with yo-yo's, people looked at me with disbelief. How could I consider THAT academic? But the yo-yo study led to many more academic subjects -- world cultures first of all, since yo-yo's have been around for years in many parts of the world; economics; physics; and so on. It didn't look like school to other people, though. Sigh.. It's also funny how hard I am on my own kids. When I heard about the Godzilla expert here on this board, I was very impressed. What a wonderful idea and what great things the kid has done in his study of it. I almost couldn't relate to the mom not liking Godzilla. THEN it hit me...I probably would have reacted the same way at the beginning! Godzilla??? Who'd expect that to be so academic. So...I'm trying to be open to whatever my kids come up with.... Ann > ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Has anyone seen the movie HARRIET THE SPY? AUTHOR: Jamma DATE: Wednesday, 14 April 1999, at 10:15 a.m. Response To: Has anyone seen the movie HARRIET THE SPY? Author: Giovanna Date: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 7:52 a.m. My girls wanted to rent Harriet the Spy so often that we bought it. My 8-year-old really identified with Harriet's friend, the scientist. I catch my daughter often in the bathroom mixing together shaving cream, shampoo, toothpaste and whatever else she can reach. This started at age 3 1/2. I thought it was just a phase and didn't discourage her. I started buying her a supply of less-expensive products because everytime dad wanted to shave... She calls it "making potions" and is constantly testing potions in the kitchen, outside and in the bathtub. We labeled all of the things she cannot use with poison stickers (bleach, ammonia, etc). Her greatest potion to date is the vinegar+baking soda reaction (great way to get my kitchen drainpipe clean). I want to take this a step farther with her and need some advice for my little scientist. Any ideas? My daughter has also asked me to help her recreate the special garden of Harriet's neighbor. We're creating stepping stones with Quikrete and small toys, pennies, shells, etc We've been collecting old bottles and other treasures from the town transfer station. Luckily, we live on two acreas of wooded land so we can "hide" our garden. How can this be turned into education? Other movies I recommend to spark the imagination - Matilda (she teaches herself to read and it takes a special teacher to discover who she truly is), James and the Giant Peach, and Fly Away Home. By the way, Fly Away Home is the Walt Disney Movie of the week on ABC (if you can stand all the commercial interruptions). ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: making potions AUTHOR: "M. Bear" in Texas DATE: Wednesday, 14 April 1999, at 4:00 p.m. Response To: Re: Has anyone seen the movie HARRIET THE SPY? Author: Jamma Date: Wednesday, 14 April 1999, at 10:15 a.m. Jamma, My son was really into the kitchen chemistry bit around that age. One suggestion (though you may already do this) - encourage (require?) your daughter to at least keep track of the ingredients / quantity used. (Would be a real shame if she accidently created a new "wonder product", but couldn't duplicate it later, eh? *g*) Lots of math, measuring, chart-making, handwriting & hypothosizing (?) possibilities in even the most rudimentary scientific record-keeping. Good luck! MB ======================================== MESSAGE: Other great individual kids AUTHOR: Susan DATE: Wednesday, 14 April 1999, at 6:28 p.m. Response To: You know what this reminds me of.... Author: Grace Date: Wednesday, 14 April 1999, at 4:28 a.m. Hello! Reading the comments here about Harriet the Spy and Fly Away Home reminded me of some of my favorite childhood literary heroes/heroines -- and gave me great insight as to WHY I thought so highly of these kids (and still do). Pippi Longstockings Harriet the Spy King Beetle Tamer Harold and the Purple Crayon Charlie and the Chocolate Factory Matilda What all those kids have in common is their authenticity. They are true to themselves, and in general, comfortable and happy being so. I could begin a rant here but I will spare you that. Anyone love Pippi like I love Pippi? ======================================== MESSAGE: Exactly guys! AUTHOR: dmx DATE: Wednesday, 14 April 1999, at 7:16 p.m. Response To: Chess vs yo-yo's Author: Ann in NC Date: Wednesday, 14 April 1999, at 9:20 a.m. I'm the one who would have thought, 'yo-yos? Now, that's not too exciting'. :D! But I'm trying to think differently! You're right - our own prejudices are really a hindrance if we're not careful. I'm the one who can't stand Godzilla. And, believe it or not, it's my own Mom who has stood firm against de-valuing it. She constantly reminds me that we don't get to choose what our kids love and hate. It's not our right and it's a losing ballgame whenever we try. It's STILL hard for me to accept that Godzilla (and yes, action figure collection is up there big time!) is the leading force to some of the best education my son has had. He may never actually learn Japanese (or then again, he may), but the skills he's developed so far are good enough. And, what's more, he's absorbed, passionate, and investigating on his own. If it were any other subject, I'd be thrilled. As it is, I have to choose to be thrilled and turn off the negative vibes! Not always easy for me! ======================================== MESSAGE: Pippi Longstocking was my idol AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Wednesday, 14 April 1999, at 7:31 p.m. Response To: Other great individual kids Author: Susan Date: Wednesday, 14 April 1999, at 6:28 p.m. Susan, I loved Pippi so much when I was a kid, I used to sleep with my feet on my pillow and I walked around my room -- on top of the furniture! Yes, I was a real Pippi fan. My kids love her, too, of course. Maybe the books we read and loved when we were kids contributed to our maverick stance as adults -- could this be why we homeschool??? Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: I loved Pippi too! I always wished to be as "self-assured" as she! nt AUTHOR: Debbie D. DATE: Wednesday, 14 April 1999, at 9:23 p.m. nt ======================================== MESSAGE: I thought you were going to mention Mary Poppins. :) AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Wednesday, 14 April 1999, at 9:46 p.m. Response To: Speaking of "go fly a kite"... Author: "M. Bear" in Texas Date: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 11:53 p.m. At least, that was what I thought of when I saw "go fly a kite." Wasn't Mary wonderful? All those other nannies were so stuffy and nasty and unsympathetic, but Mary Poppins UNDERSTOOD children. I never read the books when I was a kid, but after I had children, I read them all aloud...and we totally fell in love with Mary. Children's literature is extremely influential, don't you think? It influences the children who read it, but it also influences the parents who read it aloud TO their children! The same goes for movies -- providing the family watches them together, of course. We've never seen Fly Away Home, so I guess we all know which movie I'll be checking out of the library this weekend...thanks, guys, for the recommendation. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: making potions AUTHOR: Lisa Torres DATE: Thursday, 15 April 1999, at 3:12 a.m. Response To: Re: Has anyone seen the movie HARRIET THE SPY? Author: Jamma Date: Wednesday, 14 April 1999, at 10:15 a.m. There are lots of great books with science activities that involve making "potions". Cornstarch & water, by the way, is a great one, with interesting properties. It is a non-Newtonian fluid. Hit it: it's hard! Put it in your hand: it oozes! She can learn a lot with a little direction. Look for a book that gives explanations as well as directions, though. Here's another: Cook some red cabbage. Save the juice. It is an acid-base indicator. Mix it with acids (lemon juice or vinegar): it turns pink! Mix it with bases (baking soda, for example): it turns green! Test all your products! Have fun! Drop me a note, and I can suggest other ideas...or we can meet on the mentoring board if you like. I'm listed as a chemistry mentor there. > My girls wanted to rent Harriet > the Spy so often that we bought it. > My 8-year-old really identified with > Harriet's friend, the scientist. I catch > my daughter often in the bathroom mixing > together shaving cream, shampoo, toothpaste > and whatever else she can reach. This > started at age 3 1/2. I thought it was > just a phase and didn't discourage her. > I started buying her a supply of less-expensive > products because everytime dad wanted > to shave... She calls it "making > potions" and is constantly testing > potions in the kitchen, outside and > in the bathtub. We labeled all of the > things she cannot use with poison stickers > (bleach, ammonia, etc). Her greatest > potion to date is the vinegar+baking > soda reaction (great way to get my kitchen > drainpipe clean). I want to take this > a step farther with her and need some > advice for my little scientist. Any > ideas? > My daughter has also asked me to > help her recreate the special garden > of Harriet's neighbor. We're creating > stepping stones with Quikrete and small > toys, pennies, shells, etc We've been > collecting old bottles and other treasures > from the town transfer station. Luckily, > we live on two acreas of wooded land > so we can "hide" our garden. > How can this be turned into education? > > Other movies I recommend to spark > the imagination - Matilda (she teaches > herself to read and it takes a special > teacher to discover who she truly is), > James and the Giant Peach, and Fly Away > Home. By the way, Fly Away Home is the > Walt Disney Movie of the week on ABC > (if you can stand all the commercial > interruptions). ======================================== MESSAGE: Gerald Durrell and His Passion for Zoology AUTHOR: LK DATE: Thursday, 15 April 1999, at 6:53 a.m. We just finished reading out loud recently "My Family and Other Animals" the autobiography of Gerald Durrell's growing up years on Corfu. I was struck with how single-mindedly he was devoted to creatures and living things. He talks about how as a young boy when they first moved into their house on the island, he spent WEEKS exploring the garden to meet all the creatures therein. He goes into rapturous prose about his discovery of an EARWIG NEST! His tutor resorts to peppering his stories of history with tall tales concerning animals, like how Admiral Nelson was a devoted bird watcher and he sighted the French while watching some greater black-backed gulls through his telescope. LOL! His tutor also taught him math exclusively through zoology related problems as well. Later, he decided to study physics so he could better understand how birds fly. He grew up to become a noted zoologist who went on many animal collecting expeditions for zoos and wrote many fascinating books. Also, all the children in his family had singular interests that ran deep and narrow - genetic? environment? LK ======================================== MESSAGE: "My Family and Other Animals" really inspired me (AND my son) AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Thursday, 15 April 1999, at 7:02 a.m. Response To: Gerald Durrell and His Passion for Zoology Author: LK Date: Thursday, 15 April 1999, at 6:53 a.m. Sometimes I just have to stop and take a deep breath, because I meet the GREATEST people on this board! Another Gerald Durrell lover? WOW! Hunter and I discovered Gerald Durrell a few years ago, and we read him aloud, too. We used to laugh ourselves sick over his adventures and misadventures, but all the while, the message was strong: "Let your children do what they love doing." ======================================== MESSAGE: UNDERSTOOD BETSY was a book I read as a kid AUTHOR: Ann in NC DATE: Thursday, 15 April 1999, at 8:19 p.m. Response To: Pippi Longstocking was my idol Author: Cerelle Date: Wednesday, 14 April 1999, at 7:31 p.m. ...and I can trace my ideas of education from that experience when I was 9 or so! Understood Betsy is about a 9 year old girl who is sent to live with relatives who put much more emphasis on really LEARNING as opposed to 'doing schoolwork'. Of course, the main character also has challenges and meets them... I loved the book and read it to all my kids... Ann ======================================== MESSAGE: Playing and reading at the same time! AUTHOR: Pam J. DATE: Friday, 16 April 1999, at 7:54 p.m. This is what my wriggly son did today while I read to him from the book, Ginger Pye by Eleanor Estes. He made a little fort on the floor next to my bed. There where pillows scattered everywhere, with different blankets draped all over so that he could burrow inside his self-made tent. He even had his small electronic musical keyboard that he was using as some sort of control panel for the times when the tent would magically turn into a boat! He looked like he was in hog heaven. As I read to him, he would squirm, wiggle around, lie down, get up, reposition himself. Basically, he played with real gusto! But was he really listening to me, I wondered? Well, whenever I paused and asked him about the story it was apparent that not only was he indeed listening, he was avidly paying attention to every word I practically everything! LOL! Now would you believe, my son the semi-reluctant reader is begging me to finish this chapter book ASAP. He is eager to learn what happens next in the story! Of course I will have to surrender my master bedroom to his tent-boat for several more chapters, but I think I can live with that! Just wish I had started this book on a Monday instead of a Friday! Looks like we'll be reading through the weekend! *sigh* ROTFL! Pam ======================================== MESSAGE: Thanks for sharing this! AUTHOR: Pam J. DATE: Friday, 16 April 1999, at 8:06 p.m. Response To: Gerald Durrell and His Passion for Zoology Author: LK Date: Thursday, 15 April 1999, at 6:53 a.m. My husband, a Brit now living in Hawaii with me (and our dear son), just left for the neighborhood library in hopes of finding a copy! Failing that, he'll head to the local Borders. Would you believe that he had never heard of Gerald Durrell, but found your comments (and Cerelles) very interesting. He's always had a rather warped Monty/Python-like/British sense of humor anyway. :-) Thanks for jump-starting HIS delight-directed learning! Pam ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: a thought on interest led learning AUTHOR: Leslie Buchanan DATE: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 10:54 a.m. Response To: a thought on interest led learning Author: Kim from Sidetracks Date: Wednesday, 7 April 1999, at 9:45 a.m. My boys love to chalk life size dinosuars in the street. They have a favorite library book that lists measurements, they take it out with a tape measure and work away. Sometimes only the length is listed so we have to estimate height or vice versa, but the first time we stood in the outline of T-rex I was blown away! > My kids are out on the driveway > drawing their shadows- so they can measure > them and see where they move after lunch, > in half an hour, etc. > They came up with this totally > on their own ! I wanted them to stay > inside and some book work... but... > well... I guess they'll just have to > breath fresh air and learn higher level > math and science :-( ======================================== MESSAGE: Multi level leads to better way! AUTHOR: Leslie DATE: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 11:05 a.m. For the past two years we hs our oldest and left our other two boys to thier own devices during 'school' time. This year our middle son started kindergarden and we changed our hs program. All in all it has lead us to more interest lead learning. We have seen our relutant reader blossom, he also enjoys keeping a journal now because it's his and not an assignment. We feel liberated!!!!! I would love to hear about similar expieriences. ======================================== MESSAGE: kids enjoying delight directed learning AUTHOR: Margaret DATE: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 1:28 p.m. This style of learning has always interested me but I was afraid to break away from the books. This week I was sick and told the girls they could do what they wanted. It's been wonderful. They have drawn lots with putting captions or stories with their drawings, they planned and planted their own flower gardens and now are starting on a vegetable garden. Every time they could they were on the computer and not to play games. I saw them looking up information. My 9 yo saw a math url on my book of favorite places and checked out what it was. Then she copied almost all of the pages and did them. I was stunned. At breakfast today my two oldest (10 & 9) were actually discussing a neat math trick for adding fast they found. (Noticed my husband looking stunned) I am so sorry it took me this long to figure out I don't need to fuss at them to get on their school work. What a blessing mom getting sick was for this family. ======================================== MESSAGE: 3 R's done delightfully? AUTHOR: Teresa DATE: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 7:05 p.m. How do you delightful (grin) ladies do the 3 R's delightfully? Let's use grade 1 with a beginning reader as an example....phonics included. ======================================== MESSAGE: Delight = Right Timing AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 7:36 p.m. Response To: 3 R's done delightfully? Author: Teresa Date: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 7:05 p.m. > How do you delightful (grin) ladies > do the 3 R's delightfully? Let's use > grade 1 with a beginning reader as an > example....phonics included. Delight in the 3R's with young children has everything to do with readiness and the right timing. Has anyone here read "THE 3R's" by Ruth Beechick? Excellent. These are three booklets for grades K-3 (one on math, one on reading and one on writing, sold together as a set) and you can get them through almost any homeschool catalog. I read these when I started homeschooling and it really helped me to see that there is a very natural progression to reading, writing and yes...even math! Get these and read them! Reading will not go well with a child who is not ready to learn to read. My son wanted to learn to read at about 4 1/2 so I used "Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons". Good Enough. He learned to decode very fast but then we hit a brick wall. The stories in this program got longer and longer and even though he could read them (knew the mechanics of reading and could decode words) he just wasn't developmentally ready to read long stories. We put the book away for a good six months. At about 5 1/2 we began again and he TOOK OFF! It was wonderful. Once we finished the program he basically read easy readers from the library and easy books on whatever he was interested in. A favorite was those "READ AND FIND OUT ABOUT SCIENCE" books. There is a whole series of them on every science topic imaginable. He still loves those. We never did read "Dick and Jane". And even now I'm amazed at how well he reads when he is reading something that interests him. If I give him a reader and say, "read this" he reads it but not as well as if he was reading a harder book on Ancient Egypt. Go figure! Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: P.S. AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 7:43 p.m. Response To: Delight = Right Timing Author: Giovanna Date: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 7:36 p.m. > > Reading will not go well with a > child who is not ready to learn to read. My daugther, 4 1/2, is now wanting to learn to read. I've learned my lesson with my first one. I'm going to wait! Better late than early! The older they are the more developmentally mature and the process doesn't take as long. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Passion and fortitude AUTHOR: VickiC DATE: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 8:17 p.m. Does anyone worry that a child who follows only what he loves may not build the fortitude necessary for examining an interest in depth? Well, not exactly what I want to say. I'm not saying that you push the kid's nose to the grindstone exactly, but I don't think you can have a real understanding of anything really, unless you're ready to invest something more than curiosity---like gut-wrenching work. (Although I certainly do believe a kid who "needs" to know because of a passion is more likely to make the investment of time and effort than the kid who is not likewise emotionally engaged.) I just can't help wondering if Thomas came by that persistant personality that allowed (drove?) him to research and examine, or if somewhere in the background Mrs. Edison was (at least occasionally) providing the "encouragement". Sometime last year I read a book that examined how the talents of "gifted" individuals were nurtured. I do recall that all (or almost all) the musicians stated that a some point in their lives, even loving the instruments they had chosen, they had wanted to quit playing but their parents had refused to allow it. So this is where I have my problem with "delight directed learning". (Although I agree with the idea with only this slight reservation.) Excluding the basics (3 Rs or whatever), is it only necessary for a child to satisfy his curiosity before moving onto another topic, or do you "encourage" (moving along the continuum to "force"?) the kid to stretch? I am in favor of allowing kids tremendous leeway in educational choice, but I'm also in favor of developing EQ as well. Haven't heard much about the term lately, but I think it's a valid premise that the most successful kids aren't necessarily the brightest or most talented, but those who are persistant and resilient. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Playing and reading at the same time! AUTHOR: Carol M. DATE: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 9:11 p.m. Response To: Playing and reading at the same time! Author: Pam J. Date: Friday, 16 April 1999, at 7:54 p.m. Your son and my daughter. . . (sigh) I keep an old beat up cookie sheet and a bunch of magnetic dolls handy for reading time. Also,puzzles, legos, coloring books, paper dolls, modeling clay . . . well, you get the picture. And she remembers details about the stories better than I do! LOL! We're currently on the third chapter in the sixth book of Chronicles of Narnia (I can't even remember the name of it -- I'll be so glad when book seven is done!) and every day it's "Puhleeeeeze, Mama! Just ONE MORE CHAPTER!" There simply has to be a child more squirmy than mine out there somewhere! (She's 6, BTW.) I think we'll read Pipi next. > This is what my wriggly son did > today while I read to him from the book, > Ginger Pye by Eleanor Estes. > He made a little fort on the floor > next to my bed. There where pillows > scattered everywhere, with different > blankets draped all over so that he > could burrow inside his self-made tent. > He even had his small electronic musical > keyboard that he was using as some sort > of control panel for the times when > the tent would magically turn into a > boat! He looked like he was in hog heaven. > > As I read to him, he would squirm, > wiggle around, lie down, get up, reposition > himself. Basically, he played with real > gusto! But was he really listening to > me, I wondered? > Well, whenever I paused and asked > him about the story it was apparent > that not only was he indeed listening, > he was avidly paying attention to every > word I practically everything! > LOL! Now would you believe, my > son the semi-reluctant reader is begging > me to finish this chapter book ASAP. > He is eager to learn what happens next > in the story! Of course I will have > to surrender my master bedroom to his > tent-boat for several more chapters, > but I think I can live with that! > Just wish I had started this book > on a Monday instead of a Friday! Looks > like we'll be reading through the weekend! > *sigh* > ROTFL! > Pam ======================================== MESSAGE: I have the same question. (Sort of) AUTHOR: Carol M. DATE: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 9:22 p.m. Response To: Passion and fortitude Author: VickiC Date: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 8:17 p.m. I suppose it comes from always having to do something I don't really want to do (like P.E. in elementary, algebra in H.S., dissecting a cadaver in college, doing mountains of hideous paperwork as a nurse, doing ironing now, etc.). I'm of the opintion that at some point in time (or many points in time) we must all do things we don't really care to do/learn about things we don't really care to learn about. How do you reconcile this in delight-lead learning? If the kids are college-bound, will they have what it takes to meet the requirements for some course they *had* to take, but didn't *want* to take? Will they be able to do the grunt-work required to hold the position of choice in the job market? Random thoughts from a random thinker here. > Does anyone worry that a child > who follows only what he loves may not > build the fortitude necessary for examining > an interest in depth? Well, not exactly > what I want to say. I'm not saying that > you push the kid's nose to the grindstone > exactly, but I don't think you can have > a real understanding of anything really, > unless you're ready to invest something > more than curiosity---like gut-wrenching > work. (Although I certainly do believe > a kid who "needs" to know > because of a passion is more likely > to make the investment of time and effort > than the kid who is not likewise emotionally > engaged.) > I just can't help wondering if > Thomas came by that persistant personality > that allowed (drove?) him to research > and examine, or if somewhere in the > background Mrs. Edison was (at least > occasionally) providing the "encouragement". > > Sometime last year I read a book > that examined how the talents of "gifted" > individuals were nurtured. I do recall > that all (or almost all) the musicians > stated that a some point in their lives, > even loving the instruments they had > chosen, they had wanted to quit playing > but their parents had refused to allow > it. > So this is where I have my problem > with "delight directed learning". > (Although I agree with the idea with > only this slight reservation.) Excluding > the basics (3 Rs or whatever), is it > only necessary for a child to satisfy > his curiosity before moving onto another > topic, or do you "encourage" > (moving along the continuum to "force"?) > the kid to stretch? > I am in favor of allowing kids > tremendous leeway in educational choice, > but I'm also in favor of developing > EQ as well. Haven't heard much about > the term lately, but I think it's a > valid premise that the most successful > kids aren't necessarily the brightest > or most talented, but those who are > persistant and resilient. ======================================== MESSAGE: Sometimes delight involves hard work: a frog story (long) AUTHOR: Lisa Torres DATE: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 4:43 a.m. I have a Girl Scout interest group--their area of interest is ecology. (They aren't homeschoolers, actually...I homeschool my older son, but my 12yo daughter is in this group. Nonetheless, their experience relates to this topic--I guess even public schoolers can do it!) The girls originally planned to earn the ecology badge and then stop meeting. They had so much fun, they wanted to continue, and they were interested in malformed frogs. So I told them we could keep going. However, the best time to look for malformed frogs is not till midsummer. We found out about the North American Amphibian Monitoring Program frog call surveys, and decided to become volunteers. >From November till March, we met together and prepared. We learned to recognize the calls of the 10 species in New Hampshire, and to code the calls according to the number of frogs calling. We learned the Beaufort wind scale. We learned how to fill in data sheets. We were trained in the reasons frog populations might be declining. We learned about malformities and what the causes might be. We drove our assigned route and identified potential frog habitats, chose 10 sites to listen at, mapped and photographed the sites. We made booklets about the 10 species of frogs, how to identify them, their habitat and habits. We really worked hard! We also shared what we learned--on a radio show, in letters to the editor, in a newspaper interview, and with Brownies at a badge blast. We started driving the route and listening a few weeks ago, but didn't hear anything. It's been too cold and dry. Driving the route and stopping to listen was fun (One girl said, "It's like being on a secret mission.") but it was disappointing not to hear anything. Last night was the payoff. We went out to listen, and we heard them! Woodfrogs quacking, and peepers peeping! We saw frogs hopping across the road! The look on the girls faces as they heard the first sounds was priceless. They were delighted, all right! All the hard work was worthwhile. (Or, as one girl said, "Cool!") By the way, if you are interested in frogs, a great (and easy!) way to do it is through Frogwatch. Several of the girls in the group are doing Frogwatch sites in addition to our NAAMP route. Check out the Frogweb link below and click on Frogwatch. ======================================== MESSAGE: Surprising question AUTHOR: Ann in NC DATE: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 5:41 a.m. Response To: Passion and fortitude Author: VickiC Date: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 8:17 p.m. > Does anyone worry that a child > who follows only what he loves may not > build the fortitude necessary for examining > an interest in depth? Really interesting question that I wouldn't have thought of. I worry more the OTHER way -- that the kid will just throw herself into something to such a high degree that it becomes an obsession. My children learn much more about a subject than I would think was appropriate for their age level. The presumption here is that people will avoid 'gut-wrenching' work. Hmmm... I suppose that is all a matter of how you look at it. People look at me askance when I say I have a Ph.D. in mathematics. They probably assume it was gut-wrenching work. I did work very hard. I worked for years on my dissertation, and there were times when it was frustrating, and times when my eyes were tired. But the only gut-wrenching times were dealing with 'bosses' who took advantage of their 'underlings' (a real disadvantage of being a graduate student). I make assumptions like that about the work my kids do. The things I think of as being work I wouldn't really like to do -- hunting the bugs to feed the salamander, or rehearsing a group of middle-schoolers week after week, or studying chess books -- are not the things my kids think of as gut-wrenching work. They don't mind it at all, and mostly think it is fun. Certainly there are choices to be made. My daughter needs to decide whether to go sit and read or to work another 30 minutes practicing her harp. But I don't see where delight-directed learning is much different than if someone else told her what to do. I think delight-directed learning means she comes to accept that she has to make choices in the world, and immediate gratification may not be the best choice. You might be imagining that our delight-directed kids are living in a vacuum. That they only have influence from loving parents who let them do what they want. But our kids live in the real world, and I mainly let them experience real world consequences. If they don't rehearse enough, the play won't be ready on the scheduled date. If they don't take care of the salamander, it will die. I also don't pay money for activities that they aren't interested in. If they enjoy piano, but don't want to practice their lessons, then they don't take lessons. And, yes, maybe their piano playing will not be at a high level. And they realize that. If they want to improve, they have to practice. Maybe I'm not seeing what you are saying. Or maybe I've just assumed my kids know that sometimes you have to do things you don't like. They aren't that keen on cleaning the house, I'll tell you. And I do insist they do it. But I figure the other choices in their lives are theirs to make. They realize if they want to learn music on the harp, they need to practice. If they want to go to college, they need to be ready for SAT tests, and they need to do paperwork to submit at colleges. I haven't had a problem there. Ann ======================================== MESSAGE: The child's 'right time', not ours AUTHOR: Ann in NC DATE: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 5:57 a.m. Response To: 3 R's done delightfully? Author: Teresa Date: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 7:05 p.m. > How do you delightful (grin) ladies > do the 3 R's delightfully? Let's use > grade 1 with a beginning reader as an > example....phonics included. Hey, this is a great example. Because it points out why some people have a very difficult time with delight-directed learning. Here's how you do it with a beginning reader/phonics included. You take the book and throw it on the sofa. If the child picks it up and asks you about it, you answer questions, and follow her interests. If the child doesn't pick it up, or picks it up and puts it down.....you IGNORE that book. Because obviously the child isn't ready yet. Or isn't ready for THAT book. Or will NEVER be ready for THAT book. And THEN what would you do? Keep on following her interests. Take her to the beach to collect shells, or go to the science museum to learn more about tornados. Keep introducing anything and everything to the child, and keep reading to her. And maybe she'll ask about reading the next month. Or maybe you'll keep reading to her and she'll get tired of not being able to do it herself. I had to answer this question, because not all of our kids are going to learn to read in 1st grade. Some will already be reading, some will learn to decode but not really read, and some will not read until they are 9. But it's OKAY. If you have a delight-directed learner, they'll be spending their time wisely. My son wasn't particularly interested in reading at that age. He went along with my phonics program just because it was a fun time together, but he really didn't ask for it. He never picked up a book himself at that age. Loved when *I* read to him, but didn't try himself. Of course, by the time he was 9, he would pick up the New York Times if there was an article he wanted to read about. so I have stopped worrying about his reading. But in 1st grade, he must certainly have been 'below grade level'. It does take a lot of trust -- trust that the kids will learn what they need to learn when they are ready to learn it. Ann ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: I have the same question. (Sort of) AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 6:17 a.m. Response To: I have the same question. (Sort of) Author: Carol M. Date: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 9:22 p.m. > I suppose it comes from always > having to do something I don't really > want to do (like P.E. in elementary, > algebra in H.S., dissecting a cadaver > in college, doing mountains of hideous > paperwork as a nurse, doing ironing > now, etc.). I'm of the opintion that > at some point in time (or many points > in time) we must all do things we don't > really care to do/learn about things > we don't really care to learn about. YES! Everyone at one point or another has to do something they don't want to do. With my kids it's CHORES! :-D Delight directed learning isn't about NOT doing what you are supposed to do if you don't want to. It's about having the time and freedom to DO what you want to do. Does that make sense??? > How do you reconcile this in delight-lead > learning? If the kids are college-bound, > will they have what it takes to meet > the requirements for some course they > *had* to take, but didn't *want* to > take? Call me ignorant but this is what how I picture Delight Directed children in college: They go in knowing full well what the want to study. They don't flounder around from major to major (like I did) because they've had the opportunity to follow their interests fully. They know themselves very well. Because delight directed children are ususally very driven they will not only do well on those college course that are required--they will EXCEL. They will see them simply as just a hurdle they must cross to get to their goal. There seems to be a misconception about delight directed learning. Delight Directed learning not about making learning "fun." It is about allowing your child to become an independent learner by giving him time and freedom to pursue his area of interest. Let's say that a child is interested in reptiles. This child will probably read all he can about it, go to the library, maybe speak with people who work with reptiles, become involved in some type of organization that helps endangered reptiles, etc. Learning about reptiles is just the bottom line here. There are other lessons being learned as well such as research, following through and completing a project, expanding on basic knowledge, going beyond the "required". Are these not the type of traits that colleges are looking for in an applicant??? Are these not the types of traits that make students successful in college??? Of course it is. This approach to education is exciting. I can't wait to see how my children develop, what they might do in the future. Nothing is stopping them! I'm extremely excited about the future. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: EXACTLY!!!! AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 6:31 a.m. Response To: Sometimes delight involves hard work: a frog story (long) Author: Lisa Torres Date: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 4:43 a.m. > The girls originally planned to > earn the ecology badge and then stop > meeting. They had so much fun, they > wanted to continue, and they were interested > in malformed frogs. So I told them we > could keep going. However, the best > time to look for malformed frogs is > not till midsummer. We found out about > the North American Amphibian Monitoring > Program frog call surveys, and decided > to become volunteers. > From November till March, we met > together and prepared. We learned to > recognize the calls of the 10 species > in New Hampshire, and to code the calls > according to the number of frogs calling. > We learned the Beaufort wind scale. > We learned how to fill in data sheets. > We were trained in the reasons frog > populations might be declining. We learned > about malformities and what the causes > might be. We drove our assigned route > and identified potential frog habitats, > chose 10 sites to listen at, mapped > and photographed the sites. We made > booklets about the 10 species of frogs, > how to identify them, their habitat > and habits. We really worked hard! We > also shared what we learned--on a radio > show, in letters to the editor, in a > newspaper interview, and with Brownies > at a badge blast. WOW! Where do I sign up????!! :-) This is awesome and this is EXACTLY the type of thing I was trying to explain in my previous post titled "Re: I have the same question (sort of)". This is a prime example of how delight (if given time and freedom to develop) does become hard work and it teaches a child how to get past the "required". Now imagine for a minute that your child is in high school and they were writing the college of their choice about getting admitted. Wouldn't a project like this impress the college? Of course it would. It tells them that this student is a "go getter". It tells them that they are able to expand and go way beyond what is expected of them. This is so exciting. Thank you for sharing it with us. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: YES... Let me tell you about an experiment AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 6:49 a.m. Response To: The child's 'right time', not ours Author: Ann in NC Date: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 5:57 a.m. > I had to answer this question, > because not all of our kids are going > to learn to read in 1st grade. Some > will already be reading, some will learn > to decode but not really read, and some > will not read until they are 9. But > it's OKAY. If you have a delight-directed > learner, they'll be spending their time > wisely. YES YES YES! Let me tell you about an experiment or a study that was conducted with first graders. By the way, what I am about to tell you is in the book "A Home Start in Reading" which is one of the booklets in "THE THREE R's" package by Ruth Beechick. I was talking about these on a previous post. Great little books for anyone who is homeschooling a child in k-3rd grade. Highly recommended! So not to bore everyone to death I'll just summarize the experiment. Basically two groups of students were involved. Group number one was taught how to read in the conventional manner and at the conventional time. Group number two group did not follow this route. They, instead, immersed themselves in all sorts of other projects. The teacher read aloud to them a lot, they learned about many science topics. In short they did many, many things. At a later time... if my memory serves me correct, a year later I believe, the group two began reading instruction. What happened? Group number two learned to read much much faster than group number one (they were older, more mature). Not only did they learn to read faster but they surpassed group number one because their vocabulary was richer (due to the fact that they had been exposed to so many things while group number one had not). So it really didn't matter when they learned to read. Now group #2 is considered more "advanced and ahead" than group #1 even though they learned to read later. Isn't that interesting? Sort of opposite of what we would suspect--the opposite results. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: EXACTLY!!!! AUTHOR: Lisa Torres DATE: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 7:14 a.m. Response To: EXACTLY!!!! Author: Giovanna Date: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 6:31 a.m. > > WOW! Where do I sign up????!! :-) Check out the Frogweb site I posted.....anyone can do it! > > This is awesome and this is EXACTLY > the type of thing I was trying to explain > in my previous post titled "Re: > I have the same question (sort of)". > This is a prime example of how delight > (if given time and freedom to develop) > does become hard work and it teaches > a child how to get past the "required". > Yep...but remember that as an adult I provided a lot of the direction. I checked out the possibilities, set up the training, designed a format for the booklets, drive the route....If the girls were completely on their own, they may not have been nearly as successful. > Now imagine for a minute that your > child is in high school and they were > writing the college of their choice > about getting admitted. Wouldn't a project > like this impress the college? Of course > it would. It tells them that this student > is a "go getter". It tells > them that they are able to expand and > go way beyond what is expected of them. > Actually, the girls in my group are in sixth grade! By high school, they'll be taking much more personal responsibility for their own learning, I hope, partly because of their experiences now. > This is so exciting. Thank you > for sharing it with us. > Giovanna You're welcome, Giovanna. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: EXACTLY!!!! AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 7:32 a.m. Response To: Re: EXACTLY!!!! Author: Lisa Torres Date: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 7:14 a.m. Giovanna wrote: > This is a prime example of how delight > (if given time and freedom to develop) > does become hard work and it teaches > a child how to get past the "required". Lisa replied: Yep...but remember that as an adult I provided a lot of the direction. I checked out the possibilities, set up the training, designed a format for the booklets, drive the route....If the girls were completely on their own, they may not have been nearly as successful. ............... It doesn't matter if you set up the training. The point is that they followed through with something that they were interested in. Do you realize that they have learned a lot more than just frog malformations? They have observed the process of obtaining and organizing research, they have learned about patience and dedication to a project. This is delight directed learning at its best. This was something they were interested in and then RAN WITH IT. They didn't just put up posters saying "SAVE THE FROGS". You should be very proud. Here is the SAVE THE FROGS link you posted above. (we have to put the links in the body of the message or it won't copy over on to the permanent archive) Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: I think it can depend on the book! I would like to hear more input from others. We read out loud a lot. AUTHOR: Lynn DATE: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 1:44 p.m. Response To: Re: Playing and reading at the same time! Author: Carol M. Date: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 9:11 p.m. I tried this at first even with really simple things like just a pencil and piece of paper, but I did find there were times when they got so involved in what they were doing they tuned me out. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: making potions AUTHOR: Snow in NC DATE: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 2:04 p.m. Response To: Re: Has anyone seen the movie HARRIET THE SPY? Author: Jamma Date: Wednesday, 14 April 1999, at 10:15 a.m. Besides looking in the library these are some books I suggest: Jane Hoffman has a huge Backyard Scientist series, Foodworks (over 100 science activities and fascinating facts that explore the magic of food)from Ontario Science Centre, The Science Cookbook (experiment-recipes that teach science and nutrition) by Julia B. Waxter. I think I got them from The Sycamore Tree Center for Home Education about 10 years ago. Hope this helps. ======================================== MESSAGE: This is how it worked for us (too long - sorry) AUTHOR: dmx DATE: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 3:00 p.m. Response To: 3 R's done delightfully? Author: Teresa Date: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 7:05 p.m. My son learned to read on his own. He was about 6 and I don't really know HOW he learned. I do know WHY he learned to read. He wanted to read the comics in the newspaper in the morning & he wanted to read the video game instruction books as soon as we rented them. He didn't want to wait til someone was ready to read to him. With math, there was a similar progression. He learned basic math because he wanted to play games faster. Monopoly, especially. Now, this isn't to say that he was off by himself and magically, this great desire to 'learn math' or 'learn to read' happened & he went off and studied and figured it out by himself. No. We read a lot to him. We constantly pointed out sounds & answered his questions. We asked him what road signs said. Things were going on all around us & we were constantly commenting on them. We just got too slow for him - he NEEDED to know what the instruction booklet said so he could begin playing. For math, I used to buy those dime store work books in the store. He loved doing those - 'for fun'. This lasted awhile. Maybe he'd do an average of one page a week for a couple years. He never 'had' to do them. They were for fun - kind of like puzzle books. When we were doing yard work, I'd make up story problems using his favorite cartoon characters. Now, I never started out 'teaching him to add & subtract' - it was just a game we played while doing monotonous chores. He would beg for those! I was the one who couldn't stand doing those anymore! He was also expected to count out the money he used to buy a toy. This wasn't an 'exercise', he was just expected to do it because it was his purchase. Monopoly went faster as he learned to count the money out faster, etc. Many people think 'delight-directed learning' or 'unschooling' is untenable or even 'wrong' because it SOUNDS like you're leaving this child to do anything they want when they want. For us, it isn't that way. We USE any opportunity we can to facilitate learning. Many types of learning are expected. I'm not going to baby him along when he buys things - he needs to know about his purchases. I'm not going to stop and read to him when I'm busy with other things, so his desire to get to that game is an incentive to read. The great thing about this age is that you can experiment. As a homeschooling mom once told us, there isn't anything that he/she HAS to know at this age. As long as kids are learning anything at this age, that's enough. This is a great time to begin experimenting. You can watch and listen and see how they learn & what they like. For myself, I believed in what is now called 'delight-directed learning', but I was constantly amazed that it really worked for us! I couldn't help being shocked that my son really did learn to read without 'school'. He really did learn to add and subtract without being 'taught.' And the best advice I've gotten was from other homeschoolers who reminded me to look at the donut, not the hole. Watch and see what your kids are doing, not what they haven't gotten to yet! This really is loads of fun! ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Surprising question AUTHOR: VickiC DATE: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 3:22 p.m. Response To: Surprising question Author: Ann in NC Date: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 5:41 a.m. > Really interesting question that > I wouldn't have thought of. I worry > more the OTHER way -- that the kid will > just throw herself into something to > such a high degree that it becomes an > obsession. I wouldn't mind hearing if that is the case for anyone reading. Does anyone have teenagers who have "found their niche" so to speak? A real passion they are following? > The presumption here is that people > will avoid 'gut-wrenching' work. To use the reference to Edison again, writing was a great weakness for him even into early adulthood. Yet he had to write in order to keep note of his work. That is true, I imagine, for most of us. The need to do our "jobs" well taxes our weakest areas as well as utilizes our strengths. And yes, I think a lot of people avoid making the effort. My guess is that "living up to one's potential" has less to do with passion than it has to do work ethics. I think there HAS to be a place for both. I make assumptions like that about > the work my kids do. The things I think > of as being work I wouldn't really like > to do -- hunting the bugs to feed the > salamander, or rehearsing a group of > middle-schoolers week after week, or > studying chess books -- are not the > things my kids think of as gut-wrenching > work. They don't mind it at all, and > mostly think it is fun. I can't imagine one thing that I "love" that is continually fun and has come without effort. Certainly not parenthood. Not marriage. Not the profession I chose or the hobbies I pursue. In fact, every "passion" I've ever followed has probably exhausted me in terms of effort and personal cost. That's my point. Delight led learning is great, but kids also need to experience the reality that real learning (or the path to it) is not always "delightful". We don't abandon pursuits simply because they cease to be "fun". Some kids are blessed with the fortitude to work through the difficult spots to reach a goal. Some kids aren't. My question is what is the parent's role in that? ======================================== MESSAGE: Yes...delight doesn't mean EASY! AUTHOR: Pam J. DATE: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 7:34 p.m. Response To: Sometimes delight involves hard work: a frog story (long) Author: Lisa Torres Date: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 4:43 a.m. I loved reading your post, Lisa! Thanks so much for sharing it with us! I think there is a misconception here that delight-directed learning is all fun and easy. Maybe it would be better to call it "interest-led"? Whatever we choose to call it, such learning is NOT always easy. In fact, if it were too easy, our children would likely become bored and find something else to engage them very quickly. No, I think all children seek challenges that are appropriate to their interest and level of ability AT THE TIME, given their unique talents and abilities. I have noticed that most kids will seek games and acitivites that are not too easy, not too hard, but "just right" for them. They WANT to be challenged! They don't want it to be too easy! Unless someone has a passion for learning/achieving something to begin with, how will they sustain their drive to overcome the many obstacles in their path? Should we teach our children to be steadfast in everything, no matter what the price? Is it ever okay to quit? Most importantly, wouldn't it be easier for a child to learn the meaning of perseverance by starting with something he/she DELIGHTS in learning? By letting them experience early success in this way, it can lead to a natural strengthening of their self-esteem and will to learn & struggle towards mastery under more challenging circumstances---when they are OLDER. In this way, delight-directed learning makes a lot of sense when children are younger. It can pave the way for some "other"-directed learning that comes later. Not that it should EVER be scratched off the homeschool curriculum! Oh my...NO! Pam ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Yes...delight doesn't mean EASY! AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 6:22 a.m. Response To: Yes...delight doesn't mean EASY! Author: Pam J. Date: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 7:34 p.m. > I think there is a misconception > here that delight-directed learning > is all fun and easy. Maybe it would > be better to call it "interest-led"? > Whatever we choose to call it, such > learning is NOT always easy. In fact, > if it were too easy, our children would > likely become bored and find something > else to engage them very quickly. Absolutely. In fact, I think it's much easier to just hand a child a workbook and say, "Here, do pages 36 and 37. I'll check your work later." Delight-directed or interest-led learning takes a lot of work. I believe the rewards are great though. It is definitely worth it. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Real passions AUTHOR: Minerva DATE: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 6:25 a.m. Response To: Real passions Author: Cerelle Date: Tuesday, 13 April 1999, at 8:56 p.m. What cooking not a worthwhile profession? Are they mad? For one thing she will never be hungry and I mean not just literaly. Eating will always be in demand, at least I am not planing to stop eating out (not that I do it as often as I would liked to.) but in any case Chefs make very decent money, anf for lucrative or glamour, well I know of lots of Chefs who are very famous and are very busy in their careers....Any way if God made her that way she has been designed to be the best at that all you have to do is, well, what you are already doing. I have a friend who homeschools her son and has her own business, guess what she does cooking for people that are well to do and are interested in eating healthy she makes a lot of money and only in the afternoon, she goes to the families houses and prepares a meal for them she did reseach on healthy foods etc... sometimes she does parties it is endless, she loves it but sometimes she has had to refuse jobs because of the demand.How about that? ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Sometimes delight involves hard work: a frog story (long) AUTHOR: Minerva DATE: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 7:06 a.m. Response To: Sometimes delight involves hard work: a frog story (long) Author: Lisa Torres Date: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 4:43 a.m. How about Butterflies?any links out there?... My daughter, the artist, is very interested in butterflies. She loves to read now,(while learning to read she heated it, but I stuck to it reat as much as I could aloud.. bingo, payback time 5 years later) any way, she is not into academics does not like drill, math is not her specialty, spelling either, but amazing enough she is a very gifted writer. Who knew? any how she wants to know about butterflies I thought we could turn it into a unit study, but I need some help...anyone with suggestions to get us started,We studied the life cicle before, it is always amazing the metamorfosis,what else I am running out of ideas, please get my creative juices going..... ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Sometimes delight involves hard work: a frog story (long) AUTHOR: Lisa Torres DATE: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 9:13 a.m. Response To: Re: Sometimes delight involves hard work: a frog story (long) Author: Minerva Date: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 7:06 a.m. You could try a butterfly garden. You need to plant things that caterpillars eat and sources of nectar for the mature insects. Also provide shelter for the chrysalis and water. There's a fair amount of research involved in getting good plants for your area, and the work of planning and planting. National Wildlife Federation has information about backyard habitats. If she's artistic, she could keep a notebook with pictures of the species of butterflies and caterpillars she sees...Some butterflies migrate, so there's some geography involved, too. Hope this gives you an idea or two to get you started! > How about Butterflies?any links > out there?... My daughter, the artist, > is very interested in butterflies. She > loves to read now,(while learning to > read she heated it, but I stuck to it > reat as much as I could aloud.. bingo, > payback time 5 years later) any way, > she is not into academics does not like > drill, math is not her specialty, spelling > either, but amazing enough she is a > very gifted writer. Who knew? any how > she wants to know about butterflies > I thought we could turn it into a unit > study, but I need some help...anyone > with suggestions to get us started,We > studied the life cicle before, it is > always amazing the metamorfosis,what > else I am running out of ideas, please > get my creative juices going..... > ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Here's a great link! AUTHOR: Lisa Torres DATE: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 9:16 a.m. Response To: Re: Sometimes delight involves hard work: a frog story (long) Author: Minerva Date: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 7:06 a.m. Try this > How about Butterflies?any links > out there?... My daughter, the artist, > is very interested in butterflies. She > loves to read now,(while learning to > read she heated it, but I stuck to it > reat as much as I could aloud.. bingo, > payback time 5 years later) any way, > she is not into academics does not like > drill, math is not her specialty, spelling > either, but amazing enough she is a > very gifted writer. Who knew? any how > she wants to know about butterflies > I thought we could turn it into a unit > study, but I need some help...anyone > with suggestions to get us started,We > studied the life cicle before, it is > always amazing the metamorfosis,what > else I am running out of ideas, please > get my creative juices going..... > ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: EXACTLY!!!! AUTHOR: VickiC DATE: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 9:47 a.m. Response To: Re: EXACTLY!!!! Author: Giovanna Date: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 7:32 a.m. > Yep...but remember that as an adult > I provided a lot of the direction. > I checked out the possibilities, set up the training,designed a format for the booklets, drive > the route....If the girls were completely on their > own, they may not have been nearly as successful. ............... > It doesn't matter if you set up > the training. But I think it DOES matter. I think Lisa's direction provided these kids with the opportunity to learn far more than they would have on their own. At what point would these kids have been able to develop the same project without the input of a more experienced learner? I think the point is in trying to find the balance. Taking a child's lead (his interests) and then providing him with enough guidance to foster real learning. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: EXACTLY!!!! AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 9:51 a.m. Response To: Re: EXACTLY!!!! Author: VickiC Date: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 9:47 a.m. > > But I think it DOES matter. That's what I meant when I said "it doesn't matter." What I meant was that it didn't matter that the kids had not done the investigative work and that she had done the training. It is still delight-directed learning nonetheless. The kids took off with the topic and really went far with her help. Sorry if I what I wrote didn't make sense. G. ======================================== MESSAGE: Trying it Out AUTHOR: Neva DATE: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 11:18 a.m. I confess...I've been following this board for about two weeks now and I have been doing some experimentation with homeschool my 7yod. We started hsing in Nov. I bought a curriculm book for everything. And it was really okay for a while. Now, for about the last two months, well it was work, not fun, not enjoyable, for her or I (actually it came to be like pulling teeth) Last week, after reading just about every post on this board, we started easing off a bit. Last week, she spent a day playing with her doll house, set up rooms and reorganized it about a hundred times, she also spent some time on computer games, a game where she decorated a pony and then all by herself, she decided to write a story about the pony, she has glued constuction paper together and is working on writing a book called "The Puppy Book". We also spent a day painting, mixing colors, and talking and enjoying each other. At this moment she is working on her latest craft project, a latch hook kit we purchased yesterday. She has been working for about a hour now. All this in three days, and lots of stuff I didn't write. I don't think that we will totally quit using books but cut it down to math and maybe reading. Thank you all for bringing "delight" back into my house 8-) ======================================== MESSAGE: What's in a name? (...and other questions) AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 11:23 a.m. Response To: high school interests vs requirements Author: Diane Date: Monday, 12 April 1999, at 5:28 p.m. Hi, Diane! I apologize for letting your post sit here unanswered for over a week. What can I say? I have gardening fever this week, and I've been spending a lot of time in the dirt, rather than at my desk! :-) > I have always tried to go with > my kids' interests, but admit that I > am always the 'leader'. Really? Always? I'll bet that's not true, if you stop and think about it. You may, as a matter of course, take the lead in your children's academic activities, but I'm sure you often do things with them that were originally their idea. I think most adults naturally maintain a rigid distinction between academic and nonacademic pursuits, but for some of us, that distinction has nearly ceased to exist. And that leads me to this part of your post: > I don't understand how interest > lead learning is much different than > unschooling. Can someone help me with > the differences? Ah, I think we're just talking about different degrees of the same thing, here. The "unschooling" label embodies the idea of getting away from schooling traditions and celebrating freestyle learning, instead. "Interest-led learning" is perhaps not so radical-sounding a philosophy, since even a classroom teacher might encourage her pupils to follow their interests and make them part of the curriculum (and indeed, many have done so). Interest-led learning is anything BUT new. If you aren't already familiar with the ideas and methods of the great Swiss educator, Pestalozzi (1746-1827), look him up sometime -- and prepare to be amazed by how "modern" and revolutionary he sounds. And yet . . . his ideas influenced much school reform in 19th century America. The term "unschooling" has a militant ring to it, doesn't it? It's a little bit in-your-face and carries some shock value. But these are just labels (see my post, below, about the futility of trying to do things exactly according to the "rules" of any particular homeschooling method). I think we can really get lost when we try to mold our behavior to match someone else's vision of ideal education. For the same reasons that I want academic freedom for my kids, I want it for myself, too! > I am also wondering > how to meet high school requirements > with interest led learning. My daughter > would never do any science if it were > up to her intrests. Of course there > are many choices for biology, or whatever > the requirement may be, but what if > there is absolutely no interest? Then > what? What does your daughter intend to do after high school? Does she want to go to college? Does she already know which college she wants to attend? If she doesn't care about going to college, why should she care about high school requirements? She won't need them to get into college if she isn't GOING to college. However, if she DOES want to go to college, then she'll need to think about what she'll need to do to prepare for that. Different colleges operate differently -- some won't care whether or not she has taken biology. She should do the research ahead of time and know exactly what to expect. But the responsibility is hers, not yours. She's the one whose future is at stake, so she's the one who should care most. When WE care more about our children's futures than they do, something's wrong. Something's out of whack. However, this is often what happens when they haven't had more chances to take the lead -- and so we come back to the beginning. When we always take the lead, we prevent our children from feeling that they can be in control of their lives (and their futures), and they're more likely to sit back and let someone else make all their decisions for them. It won't occur to them to study biology because it's interesting to them or because they'll need to know a lot of it in order to earn a degree in their chosen field -- they'll do it only if someone else requires it of them. My daughter goes to a college that demands a huge amount of academic responsibility from its students. There is no undergraduate curriculum -- the kids have to chart their own courses, and yet they ARE expected to arrive at a certain level of proficiency, overall, AND to satisfy requirements in each of four different disciplines. It's just that no one tells them how to get there. They have to figure it out on their own. Of course, they do have counselors and advisors (as well as professors), but -- as my daughter says -- there's no checklist. You can't just "follow the program" and get from A to Z. You have to hack your own path. Do you think this college would be interested in accepting someone who had always simply learned what someone else had told them to study? NO WAY! A student like that would fall on his face at this school. I'm not sure I'm making my point clearly, here, but the one thing I want to be sure to emphasize is that there are different kinds of schools for different kinds of students. There are many colleges who will be glad to take a child who has always done what he was told to do. That's the kind of student they want. But there are other schools who want the opposite kind of student. I don't think any homeschooler should EVER worry about their child getting into college. That's not even an issue. You can find a school that's right for your child, no matter what, but it will be easier to find a GOOD school for your child if he or she has had a chance to develop individual interests along the way. That's how we encourage real strengths and give our kids a chance to shine. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Passion and fortitude AUTHOR: Leslie DATE: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 11:43 a.m. Response To: Passion and fortitude Author: VickiC Date: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 8:17 p.m. My oldest son (8 yrs.) so was fascinated by the tasmanian tiger, that lead to the t-devil, and eventually to almost anything Austrailian, his passion has since cooled and he is turning to wolves. He makes the comparissions that the 'tiger' and wolf are both in the dog family and dogs are another interest. I see how the interest in one animal led him to study (aided by me sure) a continent and it's people, and then flow naturally to new and related topics. I say let them 'drink' thier fill of information on any topic, it encouraged my son to read, a task he used to hate, but when he needed information it was his choice to read. Once I let him, and now his little brother, make the decision about what to learn I find I have eager and happy 'students'. I do not worry about them not following something to the heart of the matter, if they learn enough about something to know they are not interested then why should they waste thier time on it? Instead provide them with other options to explore. There are enough things in thier lives already that they MUST do, chores, eating veggies, picking up thier things.... learning should be a 'delight' not another chore! > Does anyone worry that a child > who follows only what he loves may not > build the fortitude necessary for examining > an interest in depth? Well, not exactly > what I want to say. I'm not saying that > you push the kid's nose to the grindstone > exactly, but I don't think you can have > a real understanding of anything really, > unless you're ready to invest something > more than curiosity---like gut-wrenching > work. (Although I certainly do believe > a kid who "needs" to know > because of a passion is more likely > to make the investment of time and effort > than the kid who is not likewise emotionally > engaged.) > I just can't help wondering if > Thomas came by that persistant personality > that allowed (drove?) him to research > and examine, or if somewhere in the > background Mrs. Edison was (at least > occasionally) providing the "encouragement". > > Sometime last year I read a book > that examined how the talents of "gifted" > individuals were nurtured. I do recall > that all (or almost all) the musicians > stated that a some point in their lives, > even loving the instruments they had > chosen, they had wanted to quit playing > but their parents had refused to allow > it. > So this is where I have my problem > with "delight directed learning". > (Although I agree with the idea with > only this slight reservation.) Excluding > the basics (3 Rs or whatever), is it > only necessary for a child to satisfy > his curiosity before moving onto another > topic, or do you "encourage" > (moving along the continuum to "force"?) > the kid to stretch? > I am in favor of allowing kids > tremendous leeway in educational choice, > but I'm also in favor of developing > EQ as well. Haven't heard much about > the term lately, but I think it's a > valid premise that the most successful > kids aren't necessarily the brightest > or most talented, but those who are > persistant and resilient. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Trying it Out AUTHOR: Barb DATE: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 4:34 p.m. Response To: Trying it Out Author: Neva Date: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 11:18 a.m. > I confess...I've been following > this board for about two weeks now and > I have been doing some experimentation > with homeschool my 7yod. We started > hsing in Nov. I bought a curriculm book > for everything. And it was really okay > for a while. Now, for about the last > two months, well it was work, not fun, > not enjoyable, for her or I (actually > it came to be like pulling teeth) Last > week, after reading just about every > post on this board, we started easing > off a bit. Last week, she spent a day > playing with her doll house, set up > rooms and reorganized it about a hundred > times, she also spent some time on computer > games, a game where she decorated a > pony and then all by herself, she decided > to write a story about the pony, she > has glued constuction paper together > and is working on writing a book called > "The Puppy Book". We also > spent a day painting, mixing colors, > and talking and enjoying each other. > At this moment she is working on her > latest craft project, a latch hook kit > we purchased yesterday. She has been > working for about a hour now. All this > in three days, and lots of stuff I didn't > write. I don't think that we will totally > quit using books but cut it down to > math and maybe reading. Thank you all > for bringing "delight" back > into my house 8-) Your little girl is very creative, her mind is constantly exploring. I love it!!! I'm also in the same "boat". Our children are tremendous!! The Boards are: "of a one tracked mindset" I'm not quite sure, maybe they need parrots. Parrots are good, do as they are told, but mankind also needs "free thinking" to survive. Here I go again, I'm sorry, I get carried away. I see too much. Bravo to you Neva. Allow you and your little girl to see everything and explore. She's little but time flies. Teach her the basics. You won't be sorry. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Yes...delight doesn't mean EASY! AUTHOR: Barb DATE: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 4:50 p.m. Response To: Re: Yes...delight doesn't mean EASY! Author: Giovanna Date: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 6:22 a.m. > > Absolutely. In fact, I think it's > much easier to just hand a child a workbook > and say, "Here, do pages 36 and > 37. I'll check your work later." > > Delight-directed or interest-led > learning takes a lot of work. I believe > the rewards are great though. It is > definitely worth it. Absolutely Giovanna, I agree. Workbooks have their place, but they are not everything. Every single day brings a new story, no matter were a family is living on this earth. As a parent, our job is to teach our children to take notice, and see. I carry a little camera in my purse, always. Later if they are interested in writing a story, we have a picture to help jog the memory. The three RRR's are very important as well. Trying to utilize those R's are quite the challenge. Our little camera helps. > Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: How do you know when a child finds his passion, and how is the parent involved? (long) AUTHOR: Rmoore DATE: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 11:06 p.m. My 11 yo daughter has had a few "great interests" in her life. When she was a bit younger it was marine mammals. By age 8 she could identify nearly every species of marine mammal and tell you everything she had ever read about it. She would sit around and draw pictures of them. Around the age of 9 her interest shifted to birds. She has bought books and books about birds. Her walls are covered with birds. She understands much of the physics of flight. She has more has more knowledge of birds than I ever dreamed existed. I am assuming that this "interest led learning." She retains nearly everything that she studies on the subject. I did not discourage these interests, but I didn't really encourage them either. My approach to schooling has been more testbook type studying, and very little of that is being retained. After reading most of this month's posts, we sat down to talk and make some notes about the things she would like to pursue on the topic. I was amazed by the things she had WANTED to do but was afraid to ask about. Afraid they would be too expensive or inconvenient. THAT was an interesting, eye-opening conversation. She's been doing her own interest led learning without me, makes me regret all the time I wasted making her plod through the dull textbooks. This kid is fabulous at coming up with new and interesting things to do. She dreams up new approaches to problems, new projects, etc. Most never go past the planning stage. My questions: For every project/idea she follows through with, there are 4 that either never got started or were never finished. This sort of bothers me. Should I encourage her to follow through on more of them or just keep my nose out? Do they go through many interests as they "search" for their great passion? Should I expect other big interests to surface and fade? What about things like piano lessons and dance? She says she loves both of these activities, but still she wants and needs me to remind her to practice. I never had to remind her to read about or watch birds. I think these type of activities are important (to her health in addition to her intellect). In addition to birds, she has had several fleeting passions: Star Trek, horses, beanie babies, beads, karate, gymnastics, magic, movies.... all of these were the most important thing in her life at some point. She learned a lot from all of these, but they faded quickly. My 6 yo daughter hasn't shown a keen interest in anything yet, just some vague interests in many things. She just follows along behind her big sister. Will she break out of this and develop her own interests? I hope? Do I need to encourage it? If so , how? How do you know what to encourage? Especially with things like music, art , and scientific experiments that cost a lot of money? Am I supposed to give encouragement other than driving to the library? When I realized how much the subject of birds opened up my daughter's world (geography, history, science,...), I felt guilty at first for not being more supportive. I probably would have tried to take over, and I'm guessing this would have killed her interest. It seems so clear and so confusing at the same time. Other than not be discouraging and provide a good environment, don't I get to be more involved? She's proven to me that interest led learning works.I feel like she has done such a good job by herself - I don't want to mess it up. Where do I go from here? ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Trying it Out AUTHOR: Kim DATE: Tuesday, 20 April 1999, at 8:30 a.m. Response To: Re: Trying it Out Author: Barb Date: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 4:34 p.m. I wish I had heard that in my first year ! It is HARD to let go of those text books. I have a bunch on my shelf to fend off the well meaning, yet nosy, Grocery store people :-) When I say I don't use a curriculum - people look at me like I have one pencil in the house and everyone has to share- SHEESH !! They REALLY don't get further ahead with the books. > Teach her the basics. You won't be sorry. ======================================== MESSAGE: Passion or passing interest? (long & rambling) AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Tuesday, 20 April 1999, at 8:40 a.m. Response To: Passion and fortitude Author: VickiC Date: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 8:17 p.m. Hey there, Vicki-- > Does anyone worry that a child > who follows only what he loves may not > build the fortitude necessary for examining > an interest in depth? No. Goodness, I have enough to worry about, as it is, without obsessing over that! Seriously, though, I just haven't seen this happen. In my experience, the opposite has been true. The love of something gives rise to the fortitude needed to follow it all the way to to its source -- at least that's how I've seen it work around here. Then again, I've also seen kids burn themselves out on beloved areas of interest after a few years of intense study, with or without parental interference. I'm not sure we can predict how it will go; furthermore, I'm not sure it's important for us to be able to. Life's not that predictable. But to get back to the main point, if we're talking about a real PASSION for something, the hard work and fortitude just seem to follow naturally! My oldest daughter asked me years ago how she could know what she was best suited to do. I told her that whatever kept her up at night was likely to be a good bet. I mean, isn't that the truth? When we love something so much that we'll stay up all night working at it (and not even feel sleepy or tired), then there's a good chance that this is something we could enjoy doing for a long time and be successful at. Personally, I suspect Edison ENJOYED those long hours (and years) in his lab/workshop. Yes, it was hard work, but it was work he loved. No one had to stand over him and keep him at his task. Did his mother instill these patterns of tireless effort in him when he was a child? I don't know, but the energy Edison brought to his adult work doesn't strike me as the kind of thing that can be "taught." Do I think we should encourage our children to work hard? Oh, absolutely! HOW do I think we can do this best? By encouraging their passion for the subject. If we simply encourage them to "work hard," I think we run an excellent chance of lessening their interest. Always, I prefer that my kids work to please themselves. Sometimes they do have to work to please me -- that's life -- and there are benefits from knowing how to do that (work to please another person, that is), but I'm always happier when I see them pouring forth the blood, sweat, and tears for no other reason than that THEY want to do this thing (or learn about this thing, whatever). > Sometime last year I read a book > that examined how the talents of "gifted" > individuals were nurtured. I do recall > that all (or almost all) the musicians > stated that a some point in their lives, > even loving the instruments they had > chosen, they had wanted to quit playing > but their parents had refused to allow > it. Interesting factoid, but it makes me wonder about the all the talented people who aren't musicians. Could we possibly find some artists, physicists, and gifted teachers who were ALLOWED to give up their musical instruments...and thereby found their true passions? Not all musicians are necessarily happy, fulfilled people -- let's not forget that. They may have successful careers, thanks to their parents' insistence that they continue to practice at some point in childhood, but it might not have been the best choice for them, overall. "Success" doesn't impress me as much it should, perhaps. Satisfying a curiosity and following a passion are two completely different things. I would not expect (and I would certainly not force) my children to satisfy a curiosity with the same vigor, brilliance, and tireless effort that they exhibit when following their passions. We are all dabblers in some areas, and that's fine! > I am in favor of allowing kids > tremendous leeway in educational choice, > but I'm also in favor of developing > EQ as well. Haven't heard much about > the term lately, but I think it's a > valid premise that the most successful > kids aren't necessarily the brightest > or most talented, but those who are > persistant and resilient. I would love to argue the merits of EQ theory with you someday, Vicki. Personally, I found the research a little shaky in places. (But I do have prejudices about the "soft sciences," so I'll admit to biased judgments.) Fundamentally, I agree that emotional equanimity is fully as important as intellectual ability, and I've hammered my son with concepts like "delayed gratification" all his life. (You can ask him! LOL! He groans every time he hears the term.) But you know, after giving this matter some thought, I think it may boil down to this: Whatever we worry about MOST will be what drives us toward our respective positions. You seem to worry that parents won't push their kids hard enough or exert enough influence over them. I am always worried that parents will push their children TOO hard and exert too much influence. And there lies the difference. In practice, we may employ similar methods, but the way we talk about education theory may sound very different, thanks to our varying foci of worry! (Just a thought, thrown out for discussion on this particular morning...) Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: A wild phenomenon AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Tuesday, 20 April 1999, at 9:01 a.m. Response To: kids enjoying delight directed learning Author: Margaret Date: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 1:28 p.m. In the 13+ years I've been homeschooling, it's astonishing how many letters I've read like yours, Margaret. Sometimes we moms don't realize -- until we get sick or put out of action in some way -- just how capable our children are (and how dispensible we are). In fact, when I'm asked how mothers find the courage to ditch the curriculum and let the kids develop their own activities, I sometimes say, "Well, getting real sick is often the first step." Weird, but true! Loved your tale, and will add it to my collection of testimonials from recently ill & currently enlightened homeschooling mothers. :-) Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: How do you know when a child finds his passion, and how is the parent involved? (long) AUTHOR: Ariel Simmons DATE: Tuesday, 20 April 1999, at 1:57 p.m. Response To: How do you know when a child finds his passion, and how is the parent involved? (long) Author: Rmoore Date: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 11:06 p.m. Your daughter sounds like a wonderful learner, really self-motivated and willing to do a lot of leg work on her own. This is great! All you have to do is hold onto her tail and you're set. (I wouldn't worry about the younger one either, what doesn't look like an obsession may have just not yet come to the surface. And there are times of educational floundering: finding what you love.) Growing up and home educating I had plenty of passions that consumed my life and then took the back burner for a while. I remember spending months reading Greek mythology, thinking about Greece, making Greek food, thinking about the environmental impact of tourists on ancient ruins, and anything else that happened to get in my path. My parents being enthusiastic about my study was crucial. It validated me, something particularly important having recently gotten out of school. More over, their support helped open up new avenues. Actually, it was my mom who pointed out that someday I might go to Athens, but I should consider the pollution and decay I'd be contributing to. This opened up a whole subject to me that I previously hadn't found any interest in. She facilitated. She didn't try to control my studies, or assign books in the area I was interested in. My mother encouraged me to follow my passion, and to look at it from all angles. She did a wonderful job. I don't think there is a person whole has one and only one interest. Waiting around for me to find my one true final interest, and _then_ encouraging it would have been a mistake. Greek mythology lead me to other mythologies, which lead to other cultures, which lead to other areas of interest and exploration. Interest-lead learning is a chain, not a series of brief emersions in one topic. Your daughter may not be studying birds in college, or even five years from now. Without a doubt she'll be working in a subject that either evolved from her investgation of birds...round about as it may be...or using the tools she aquired through that study. She might not finish everything she starts. It's nice to have this freedom now, so you can be impulsive without the fear that your project with turn into a requirement. I learned a lot from false starts. Ultimately, don't worry about encouraging a dead end, there are no dead ends. A word about money. Please, if a child is interested in something, do not discourage or ignore their interest due to its expensive nature. Many science experiments can be done with kitchen ingredients, (and are far more interesting). If you have a child interested in science, look at the science of yeast, of baking soda and vinegar, of the bouncing egg, the destructive power of spit... (The day my mother and I spent spitting into a cup to see what would happen to a cracker only cost us the cracker and some of our pride.) Art can be made of junk, with cheap crayons, with clay from the back yard, with cast-offs from any warehouse, college art department, of supply house. Music is more difficult, but (like science and art) books may be checked out from the library, singing is free, and small instruments... harmonicas etc. aren't too pricey. They could at least be a little birthday present if you can't spend any other time. Plus, there are plenty of books out about making music with water glasses, the oven rack, or the trash can. Not encouraging your child due to money will be much more expensive in the long run. Ariel Simmons ======================================== MESSAGE: This sounds so familiar... AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Tuesday, 20 April 1999, at 2:43 p.m. Response To: Playing and reading at the same time! Author: Pam J. Date: Friday, 16 April 1999, at 7:54 p.m. My wriggly son used to build big, sprawling structures all over the floor during read-aloud time. Lincoln Logs, Lego blocks, card houses -- the materials changed from day to day, year to year, but his need to be DOING something while I read to him never did. When he was a little older, I could put this to good use: I would read to him while he washed the dishes (frankly, I'd much rather read a good book aloud than clean the kitchen). For the last couple of years, he's liked for me to read to him while he cleans his room. He always makes the bed first, so I'll have a comfortable place to sit. Ha! Believe it or not, I have even read nonfiction aloud to him while he pedaled his bicycle around our circular driveway -- and he remembered every word. This is the most sedentary year we've had so far -- I think he is finally (at age 13) getting the hang of sitting still. In fact, I read aloud for over an hour today while we BOTH sat on the sofa. Will wonders never cease? Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Finding the balance AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Tuesday, 20 April 1999, at 3:35 p.m. Response To: Re: EXACTLY!!!! Author: VickiC Date: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 9:47 a.m. > I think the point is in trying to find > the balance. Yes, and this is easier said than done, I think. I tend to be a very enthusiastic mother/teacher. I get all excited about things. If one of the kids shows an interest in something, my first thought is to rush that child to the library or the museum and come home loaded with info and ideas for where to go next. This is a good thing, but you can have too much of a good thing! The problem is that an over-enthusiastic parent/teacher can drain the child's eagerness to learn. I know, because I've been guilty of this! I've taken over projects. I've intruded myself into my kids' own personal interests. I've made them MY interests -- and sometimes it worked out just fine. We could all be fascinated in the same thing and pursue it together, and everyone had a great time. But sometimes my kids wanted to do things on their own -- they didn't necessarily WANT Mama taking over their project...again! So I think it's important to be sensitive. If we're tuned in, we can know when to come forward and contribute our ideas and energy and know-how, and we can know when to back off and let the kids be self-propelled. I don't know of any rules that we can follow, here, to help us keep that balance, other than keeping our ear to the ground and really listening to what the kids are telling us. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Stumbling through . . . AUTHOR: dmx DATE: Tuesday, 20 April 1999, at 6:53 p.m. Response To: How do you know when a child finds his passion, and how is the parent involved? (long) Author: Rmoore Date: Monday, 19 April 1999, at 11:06 p.m. You sound like you're stumbling through admirably! I mean that. I think we all run a gauntlet between encouraging and stifling an interest. So, I'm really no help there. I agree with Cerelle that it's always going to be a balancing act. The point I wanted to make is that you might want to consider how 'passed' those fads are. I mean to say that each of those passions is probably contributing to the ability and skill of your child in exploring the next passion that comes along. My son has passed through a lot of fads too. He started out with the creatures in the Mario video games. He drew the characters and the scenes in the games. Then, he began to make his own scenes using the characters and write captions for them. Next, came the ninja turtles. He did much the same, but began to organize a notebook listing all the qualities of each turtle. If it got messy, he tore out the pages and re-wrote them in a more organized fashion. Other passions have come and gone until Godzilla is the current fad. This one has been going for awhile. Now, he writes story after story about these characters. He draws, writes comic strips, writes poems. He's taking art classes on cartooning and writing. Lately, he's started learning the characters for the Japanese languages so he can translate his collector's cards and some books on Godzilla. He's started saving dimes for a trip to Japan in 2004, some type of Godzilla anniversary celebration. All this long-windedness to say that I see a progression of skills and abilities and desires fueled by each new passion he's latched on to. (And I fervently hope this Godzilla passion quickly moves on to something else!!! :)) } If you look back, do you see the same progression in your child? Don't you think the skills she's gained in each 'fad' are being used by her today? Many of the homeschooling parent vets encourage us to have patience & 'look at the donut, not the hole'. That's what I see when I read your description - a really great donut! ======================================== MESSAGE: Well, something happened to my kid last night! (also long & rambling) AUTHOR: Deborah H. DATE: Tuesday, 20 April 1999, at 11:01 p.m. Response To: Passion or passing interest? (long & rambling) Author: Cerelle Date: Tuesday, 20 April 1999, at 8:40 a.m. >I told her that whatever kept > her up at night was likely to be a good > bet. I mean, isn't that the truth? When > we love something so much that we'll > stay up all night working at it (and > not even feel sleepy or tired), then > there's a good chance that this is something > we could enjoy doing for a long time > and be successful at. We're taking a break from "the 3 Rs" this week, and my 9yo son was glad to be taking the break (sigh). Outside of the 3 Rs, I try to let my children to pursue their interests, so it's disheartening when they're so excited about their break! However, something happened ... His recent interest in his Guinea Pig and Pokeman and comics gave him an idea to write a comic strip series based on Pokeman and his pets as Pokeman characters. He's written 11 pages of comic strips in 2 days. He told me he stayed up until 2:15 last night working on it! And he worked on it several more hours today. But, I'm not calling it school ;-} . Even if it is English, spelling, art, story composition, etc. I'm not going to spoil his fun. I can hardly wait for the big presentation this Sunday. I'm sure this interest won't last forever, but it's so good to see him enjoy writing (and drawing ) his ideas on paper. This is the kid I thought would never write! By the way, this goes to show that kids take stuff their parents don't like them to obsess about (Pokeman, oh please!) and play off of it into something a little more "academic." (But I'm not telling him ... SHHH!) Deborah H. ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: P.S. AUTHOR: Deborah H. DATE: Tuesday, 20 April 1999, at 11:12 p.m. Response To: P.S. Author: Giovanna Date: Saturday, 17 April 1999, at 7:43 p.m. Be careful comparing children (you've probably already thought about this). I used Teach Your Child on both my children, an older boy and a younger girl. My son finished the lessons and needed extra phonics work on silent e endings and then took off. My younger daughter wanted to read sooo badly because her big brother could read. So I started her at 4 1/2, and she took off on reading by Lesson 80, and she still insisted we finish the book. Sometimes that "older sibling thing" provides the younger child with an extra element of motivation. And some children, especially girls, are more developmentally "mature" than boys. Don't hold your daughter back if SHE wants it. Just go slowly and if she starts to bog down, then back off like you did with your son. Just "read" your child. You're the best one to judge! Just my .02! Deborah H. > > My daugther, 4 1/2, is now wanting > to learn to read. I've learned my lesson > with my first one. I'm going to wait! > Better late than early! The older they > are the more developmentally mature > and the process doesn't take as long. > > Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: P.S. AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Wednesday, 21 April 1999, at 6:06 a.m. Response To: Re: P.S. Author: Deborah H. Date: Tuesday, 20 April 1999, at 11:12 p.m. > Don't hold your daughter back if > SHE wants it. Just go slowly and if > she starts to bog down, then back off > like you did with your son. Just "read" > your child. You're the best one to judge! > Just my .02! Thanks Deborah! When she started to talk about it we did the first few lessons.... just to see how she would do. She did fine but began to struggle a little. We had a little talk and I told her that there were plenty of other things to learn besides reading right now and she was easily convinced so I took that as a clue. And there definitely are PLENTY of other things to learn right now! At 4 1/2 she has already displayed her passion....wildlife, gardening, trees, bugs, dirt...her passion is NATURE. So we are very busy on a garden and she is learning how to take care of a bunny and some ducks. She told me that when she grows up she wants to be a "farmer and a mommy." She is a very nurturing little person. At her little age I would rather help her develop a love of learning through her interests than to learn to read although reading is definitely in the nearby future for her. THANKS! Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: This is how it worked for us (too long - sorry) AUTHOR: Kim from sidetracks DATE: Wednesday, 21 April 1999, at 12:53 p.m. Response To: This is how it worked for us (too long - sorry) Author: dmx Date: Sunday, 18 April 1999, at 3:00 p.m. >>For us, it isn't that way. We USE any opportunity we can to facilitate learning. << Exactly ! Isn't this the way education has been since the beginning of time ?!! (not counting the last 75-80 years) Why do people think we are doing such a radical thing ?? It isn't the norm NOW- maybe... but it certainly was for a majority of history. Which one has proven more useful and EFFECTIVE ! :-) ======================================== MESSAGE: How does one begin?? AUTHOR: Kimberly DATE: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 5:15 a.m. That's it! I've just finished reading all of your "glowing" posts on delight-directed learning. It sounds so wonderful and natural. I have been a slave to the books and would like to let go. Unfortunately though, my two sons (ages 9 and 7) have no interest in learning anything. How can I encourage that? Your children sound so motivated and so full of wonderful ideas to do. My boys like to sit in front of the computer when they have spare time (afternoons and weekends) and it's not to play educational games or to research a particular topic they are interested in. I think I'd fall off my chair if that happened! They also beg to play Nintendo (it's usually a "no" from me so they pout), or they will play legos or Knex. That is about all they do - no projects (unless assigned by me) or self-directed learning. They both love to read, but they choose fiction as opposed to non-fiction. My eldest son is the worst - we finish school before lunch and then he mopes around in the afternoon with an "I'm bored" attitude. My heart yearns for what all of you have. Do you have any suggestions at all as to how to get started? If they do settle on a particular topic (say snakes), what should I do? Take them to the library and help pick out books, pick them out myself and display them around the house, or do nothing at all? I am at a loss. Sorry this is so long, but I really really would like to give this a try and see if it can work in our family. Nice "chatting" with you all! :) Kimberly ======================================== MESSAGE: Late nights, deep concentrations AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 7:38 a.m. Response To: Well, something happened to my kid last night! (also long & rambling) Author: Deborah H. Date: Tuesday, 20 April 1999, at 11:01 p.m. Deborah, I loved what you wrote. That's a great story. Have you ever noticed that when we keep the children working out of their textbooks -- day after day, month after month, and year after year -- we generally (assuming everything goes well) see steady progress in all those "skill areas." BUT, when we back off a little bit (or a lot), it's not at all uncommon to see children taking quantum leaps in their skill levels. If we continue to back off, this is what normally happens, I think: There are periods of stagnation and no-progress, followed by intervals of feverish activity and rapid progress. A rhythm emerges -- a natural rhythm we might never have found out about if we hadn't loosened the reins in the first place. I know there are adults who'd be horrified to hear of a 9-year-old staying up past 2:00 a.m. to work on a comic book. Oof! I can just see their disapproving faces now, can't you? Well, my kids did stuff just like that. Why not? They didn't have to get up early to meet the school bus the next morning. Did it teach them bad habits? Did it make them think that people can always get away with staying up late and sleeping in? Absolutely not! My daughters have turned out to be the kind of people who habitually arrive EARLY for everything, even early shifts or classes. (Their bosses and professors love them for it.) My son currently gets up early to see his father before he leaves for work and to tend to his beloved dog. It's a choice he freely makes because he loves his dad and his dog. :-) My daughters show up early for work and class because they love what they're doing and learning. I used to worry that good habits like "going to sleep at a reasonable hour" had to be taught. I feared my children might not be fit for traditional day jobs, because they were such night owls, but I can assure you I worried in vain. Instead, giving them the freedom to stay awake and work on things that interested them gave them a chance to work alone and uninterrupted for hours at a stretch -- and access a level of concentration that's not always attainable in the middle of a busy household during the day. Well, that's my rant. ;-) Thanks for telling us about your son's wonderful week, late nights and all. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: snakes =8-o AUTHOR: Kim DATE: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 7:42 a.m. Response To: How does one begin?? Author: Kimberly Date: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 5:15 a.m. Okay... > Take > them to the library and help pick out > books, pick them out myself and display > them around the house, or do nothing > at all? Others here may disagree... but I say you would start at the reptile house at your zoo- or pet store- whatever you have at your part of the world. Go somewhere that you can SEE snakes.... Somewhere that you can TOUCH snakes (Ick !) and some one who knows can tell you all about them in gory detail. (these are boys, right ? :-) Then perhaps you would like to buy an expensive and touristy (yet educational) "souvenier"- ie. something about snakes... Maybe you live somewhere where you can go out in the backyard and catch snakes :-) (ooh, fun... ) THEN you go to the library and get books that have pictures of snakes that live in other parts of the world and you will have to pull out the atlas and SEE where those other parts are... etc... etc... Then you might want to draw food chains (what I eat and what eats me ) And other reptiles... what makes a reptile a reptile and how are they different (turtle and snake for example) I've seen little kits with wooden snake toys and you paint them. Maybe you could find something like that. Kids are only "bored" cuz we let them... I love it when the kids are bored because then we can clean cupboards and closets... and scrub the bathroom :-) The pantry always needs cleaning. (they can do extra jobs for hard cash - 25 cents) but if they are bored and being annoying then they can do it for free :-) I'm only HELPING to alleviate the boredom... Maybe your Nintendo could "break" for a while. Or if you wanted to exploit the computer as a learning tool you could take them down to the software store (our favourite place) and they can make a list of the one(s) they want. Each child writes (or presents orally ) WHY they should have that software- it is better if they aggree. You can probably find reptile software if you are in a bigger city. When you are tearing around and playing... then you incorporate what you have learned... I am a boa constrictor and am going to SQUEEEEEEZE you.... (hug) Once you get going- you just can't stop yourself. Sooner or later kid will come to you and ask something that you don't know because his little brain is working over time on snakes... So then you take them to a kid-surf search engine (Yahooligans and Surf Monkey are the two that I use) Plop them down - tell them where to type and walk away (Not TOO far - this IS the 'net after all !!) We don't often have thoughts that just pop up in our own little heads that is why we have to go LOOK at the stuff before we go to the library. Maybe it is different at your house. After they have a few drawings or whatever about snakes , then they need a little note book to "keep the papers in" (handy reference material should you have any educational gestapo visit your home on a regular basis... ) This is really long so I will stop, but I could go on and on... :-) ======================================== MESSAGE: Beautifully done, Kim! AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 9:33 a.m. Response To: Re: snakes =8-o Author: Kim Date: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 7:42 a.m. That was masterful. I, too, was going to suggest the zoo's herpetarium or the natural science museum. The ideal order of things (library first? or the zoo?) might just depend on the kids and the family. Around here, we often read up on stuff first and then go see it in person...but we are sort of bookish people, and we feel comfortable getting into a subject this way. If we read about snakes first and THEN go see them at the zoo, we feel like we know what we're looking at a little better. Then again, we might see something while we're at the zoo that we'll want to read more about when we get back home -- it definitely works both ways. And let's not overlook the power of videos -- the library might have a good nature video about snakes. I like to show kids just how MUCH information is available about anything they might be interested in. I like to prove to them that are lots and lots of ways to learn about any subject -- many directions from which a subject can be approached, many layers to explore, many facets to be aware of. "Snakes" is a HUGE topic...enormous! And like most things, the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know. This, I think, is the whole point of education -- to teach us that there is so much out there to learn. Textbook learning doesn't usually have this effect, however. A textbook gives the illusion that it is teaching the student everything there is to know about a subject. A 3rd grade science book might have a chapter about reptiles, and it will offer a skeletal summary with a few attractive photos (and questions at the end of the chapter), and then everyone can assume that this 3rd grader has learned everything that an 8-year-old needs to know about reptiles. Everyone can feel smug and satisfied. But I wanted my 8-year-olds to brush up against the WORLD of information out there and know that they could go for years, just learning about snakes, and never reach the end. I did NOT want them to believe that a little chapter could teach them everything there was to know about snakes. And there are all those other aspects of snake study (other than straight science, that is) -- snakes in religion and mythology, snakes in ancient art, snakes in medicine, snakes in literature, snakes in history. There really is no end to it, and we can do this with practically ANY subject (although snakes are an especially fertile one, I have to admit). Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Just begin! Don't worry too much about the how-to. AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 9:44 a.m. Response To: How does one begin?? Author: Kimberly Date: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 5:15 a.m. Hi, Kimberly-- I wrote some things about this just now in response to the post Kim wrote you, but I did want to say -- directly to you -- that you really don't need to get hung up on the how-to. Whether you take the kids to the library or bring books home for them to look at isn't as important as the fact that you're responding to THEIR interests. One week it may be more convenient to look for materials by yourself, while the next week you might all go to the library together. Either way, you're going beyond the textbook and encouraging your children to learn for the sheer joy of it. In the presence of a caring adult who encourages them to wonder about things and to look for answers to their questions, their curiosity will blossom. No matter HOW you go about it in the beginning, you'll soon discover the methods that work best for you and your children. Be free! Try things out. Experiment. Be curious. You'll have a blast, I can almost guarantee it. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Beautifully done, Kim! AUTHOR: Michelle DATE: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 11:18 a.m. Response To: Beautifully done, Kim! Author: Cerelle Date: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 9:33 a.m. I think Kim and Cerelle have done a wonderful job of explaining where to get started. My son, at age 5, asked to do a study on frogs. I first looked on the internet, then the library and the next place is to a local pond for tadpoles. We can actually look from our kitchen window at night and watch the little green frogs eat bugs (yum-yum). Our library just happened to have a story time on frogs today, which was fun to go to. Ideas and things to do for any topic are endless, once you get started and find out that there is alot out there to learn. >> That was masterful. I, too, was > going to suggest the zoo's herpetarium > or the natural science museum. The ideal > order of things (library first? or the > zoo?) might just depend on the kids > and the family. > Around here, we often read up on > stuff first and then go see it in person...but > we are sort of bookish people, and we > feel comfortable getting into a subject > this way. If we read about snakes first > and THEN go see them at the zoo, we > feel like we know what we're looking > at a little better. Then again, we might > see something while we're at the zoo > that we'll want to read more about when > we get back home -- it definitely works > both ways. > And let's not overlook the power > of videos -- the library might have > a good nature video about snakes. > I like to show kids just how MUCH > information is available about anything > they might be interested in. I like > to prove to them that are lots and lots > of ways to learn about any subject -- > many directions from which a subject > can be approached, many layers to explore, > many facets to be aware of. > "Snakes" is a HUGE topic...enormous! > And like most things, the more you learn, > the more you realize you don't know. > This, I think, is the whole point of > education -- to teach us that there > is so much out there to learn. > Textbook learning doesn't usually > have this effect, however. A textbook > gives the illusion that it is teaching > the student everything there is to know > about a subject. A 3rd grade science > book might have a chapter about reptiles, > and it will offer a skeletal summary > with a few attractive photos (and questions > at the end of the chapter), and then > everyone can assume that this 3rd grader > has learned everything that an 8-year-old > needs to know about reptiles. Everyone > can feel smug and satisfied. > But I wanted my 8-year-olds to > brush up against the WORLD of information > out there and know that they could go > for years, just learning about snakes, > and never reach the end. I did NOT want > them to believe that a little chapter > could teach them everything there was > to know about snakes. > And there are all those other aspects > of snake study (other than straight > science, that is) -- snakes in religion > and mythology, snakes in ancient art, > snakes in medicine, snakes in literature, > snakes in history. There really is no > end to it, and we can do this with practically > ANY subject (although snakes are an > especially fertile one, I have to admit). > > Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: How does one begin?? AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 11:35 a.m. Response To: How does one begin?? Author: Kimberly Date: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 5:15 a.m. > That's it! I've just finished reading > all of your "glowing" posts > on delight-directed learning. It sounds > so wonderful and natural. I have been > a slave to the books and would like > to let go. You may also find the DESCHOOLING DIGEST very helpful. Look to your left and go to the link that says DIGESTS FROM MONTHLY TOPIC BOARD and it will take you to that discussion. I think you will be very encouraged by it as well. > Unfortunately though, my > two sons (ages 9 and 7) have no interest > in learning anything. How can I encourage > that? There isn't a magic formula to this. I almost wish there was. Not every child responds the same to everything. Here are some things that have worked with us: * Get yourself busy. Delight in the process of learning can be very contagious. Get busy with a hobby, an interest. Let them watch you "in action." * Provide tools at home for research. One of my biggest goals as a homeschooler is not to accumulate curriculum but to have a good home library with REAL books. I can't buy them all though so, of course, my library card gets lots of use. * Although the tv and the computer can be great assets, too much of them can also give you "brain dystrophy". Keep all things in balance. Hmm... what would happen if everyone in the family watched less tv and didn't get on the computer as much? What would they invest their time in? That might be interesting. I know my children have been extremely more creative since time restrictions were set in our home. They began to play with toys they had not played with in a long time and they started a lot of interesting "projects" of their own. * Institute family read aloud time. We are "book people" and as a result some of my children's strongest interests have been birthed by something we read. With all these things in place do not expect changes overnight. More than anything this is an "atmosphere" that takes time to develop in the home. Keep your eyes and ears open for interests and encourage them to learn about them. Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: And have you noticed???? AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 11:40 a.m. Response To: Re: Beautifully done, Kim! Author: Michelle Date: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 11:18 a.m. > We can actually look from > our kitchen window at night and watch > the little green frogs eat bugs (yum-yum). > Our library just happened to have a > story time on frogs today, which was > fun to go to. Ideas and things to do > for any topic are endless, once you > get started and find out that there > is alot out there to learn. ...that learning opportunies happen to "pop up" all of the sudden when you are interested in a topic? Take your library story time for instance. Isn't that interesting? That's happened to us a lot. If we are learning about say, forests, Bill Nye the Science Guy will have a show on it that day! THE WHOLE WORLD IS A SCHOOL!!!!!!!! Giovanna ======================================== MESSAGE: kind of fun from a 10 year old AUTHOR: Kristie DATE: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 1:40 p.m. Response To: How does one begin?? Author: Kimberly Date: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 5:15 a.m. Kimberly, if you want your sons to be active get them an educational game or CD like the Magic school bus or sparkys Math adventure. cus these games are fun and they are learning. ======================================== MESSAGE: That's the delightful truth... AUTHOR: Cerelle DATE: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 5:54 p.m. Response To: And have you noticed???? Author: Giovanna Date: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 11:40 a.m. Having an special, current interest sharpens our vision, I think. Everything that relates to that interest seems to show up in sharp focus, and we pick up on all sorts of things that might have gone right past us before, unnoticed. But when our minds are focused on a particular thing (whether it's snakes or ancient Egypt or cycads), the world almost takes on a whole new meaning. We're wildly pleased every time our special topic crops up in some unexpected context. It almost seems magic! Well, it IS magic. It's the magic of being alive to the world and of having a rich appreciation for the many wonders around us. That's real delight, in my book. Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Late nights, deep concentrations AUTHOR: Deborah H. DATE: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 11:20 p.m. Response To: Late nights, deep concentrations Author: Cerelle Date: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 7:38 a.m. So good to hear that the "unconventional" hours work in real life. I have kind of worried about that. Everyone in my family (except the son!) are late night owls. We all wake up late and go to be d late, partly to accomodated DHs' schedule. Thanks for the reassurance. Deborah H. > I know there are adults who'd be > horrified to hear of a 9-year-old staying > up past 2:00 a.m. to work on a comic > book. Oof! I can just see their disapproving > faces now, can't you? Well, my kids > did stuff just like that. Why not? They > didn't have to get up early to meet > the school bus the next morning. Did > it teach them bad habits? Did it make > them think that people can always get > away with staying up late and sleeping > in? Absolutely not! My daughters have > turned out to be the kind of people > who habitually arrive EARLY for everything, > even early shifts or classes. (Their > bosses and professors love them for > it.) My son currently gets up early > to see his father before he leaves for > work and to tend to his beloved dog. > It's a choice he freely makes because > he loves his dad and his dog. :-) My > daughters show up early for work and > class because they love what they're > doing and learning. > I used to worry that good habits > like "going to sleep at a reasonable > hour" had to be taught. I feared > my children might not be fit for traditional > day jobs, because they were such night > owls, but I can assure you I worried > in vain. Instead, giving them the freedom > to stay awake and work on things that > interested them gave them a chance to > work alone and uninterrupted for hours > at a stretch -- and access a level of > concentration that's not always attainable > in the middle of a busy household during > the day. > Well, that's my rant. ;-) Thanks > for telling us about your son's wonderful > week, late nights and all. > Cerelle ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: How does one begin?? AUTHOR: Lisa Torres DATE: Friday, 23 April 1999, at 5:14 a.m. Response To: Re: How does one begin?? Author: Giovanna Date: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 11:35 a.m. > >Here are some things that have > worked with us: > * Get yourself busy. Delight in > the process of learning can be very > contagious. Get busy with a hobby, an > interest. Let them watch you "in > action." > Giovanna I agree with this! One thing that will guarantee interest from my 12 yo daughter is an activity that "you wouldn't really be interested in, dear. It's all adults." I have (pseudo)reluctantly allowed her to attend historical society meetings (mostly elderly folks in our town) and classes I'm enrolled in. She's very involved in my Girl Scout ecology group with the big frog interest, so when I enrolled in a course on declining and malformed frogs, she insisted on attending. It was pretty technical, and I thought she'd be bored, but she took 8 pages of notes (!) Her group has been asked to do a workshop to train GS leaders, and she is generating an outline with a lot of the more complex info she learned (things like how hormone disruptors work). Amazing! ======================================== MESSAGE: Re: Late nights, deep concentrations AUTHOR: Giovanna DATE: Friday, 23 April 1999, at 6:03 a.m. Response To: Re: Late nights, deep concentrations Author: Deborah H. Date: Thursday, 22 April 1999, at 11:20 p.m. > So good to hear that the "unconventional" > hours work in real life. I have kind > of worried about that. OH ABSOLUTELY! That's the great thing about homeschooling. IT'S FREEDOM! Some of our best moments have been late at night. My son is a night owl and he picks up speed right around nine o'clock. He's even known to pull out a workbook then and start writing! YES! Giovanna ========================================Back to the TopBack to the Digest Index